Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Winnipeg Stadium after it's major renovation in the late 1970's (you guys are going to laugh at me for saying this) was considered state of the art back in the day. Bob Cameron said so when he joined the club in 1980. The problem was it was not maintained at all because it was run by the cheap skates known as Winnipeg Enterprises. They ripped out the natural grass turf in 1988for stupid AstroTurf and that same year they converted the end zone seating for baseball and they turned the student zone of the east grandstand into cheap retractable sheet metal stands in hopes of getting AAA baseball back in Winnipeg. Also no repairs were done to maintain the plumbing or electrical systems on the stadium they were allowed to rot with pigeon droppings and all. Winnipeg Stadium was the same quality as McMahon in Calgary, Frank Clair in Ottawa, Ivor Wynn in Hamilton or Taylor Field in Regina they were all renovated in the 70's and afterwards no maintenance was done for any of them for most of the next 30 years.

.... Actually really interesting post..Winnipeg Enterprises Corp....Where have I heard that name before.. was it 1996....

[thurmas]

Interesting article that the Big Owe might be a lot cheaper to tear down than originally thought link:http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Olym...+than+million+experts/9257859/story.html

Long term for the Alouettes I don't think Molson Stadium suits their needs of a CFL with ever improving stadiums. Molson stadium has no room for extra seating to host a Grey Cup and all the seats are just benches with no backs. Maybe the Als can somehow team up with the city if they are serious about building a new downtown ballpark if the Expos come back (Tampa Rays cough cough)

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

Sure there was a need for a new stadium for the 1967 Pan Am Games. That's why they built one at the University of Manitoba which stands to this day.

Edmonton's old stadium was about the same vintage and design as the old Winnipeg Stadium... if theirs was a piece of — by the 70s, so was ours.

If they had to go back and do it again, it would have made sense to build a large, proper new stadium for the 1967 PAG and leave the old one in its original form for amateur sports rather than spending money putting lipstick on that pig. Edmonton got it right in this department.

Agree to disagree then. The stadium built at the University of Manitoba was small and cheap (only 5,000 permanent seats) and would have been considerably more expensive if they went with a 25,000 permanent seat facility. They had a budget for the games and stuck with it. Not enough money for a CFL stadium..and then there is also the track and field factor. We would lose some intimacy with the stadium having a track around it..one of few flaws with CommonWealth.

And as I said Winnipeg Stadium was only 15 years old upon arrival of the Pan Ams - not exactly getting your moneys worth out of the stadium if you replace it after such a short period.

Edmonton benefitted from circumstances. Clarke Stadium was 40 years old by the time the CommonWealth Games rolled around so it made sense upgrading the facility - the city had gotten their money's worth out of it. Can't compare that to what was a newish Winnipeg Stadium in 1967.

[Chadillaccc]

That would be sweet if the Expos came back. Could be a great opportunity for a new mixed use stadium!

While I can see the obvious complete lack of functionality for Molson Stadium, I definitely like the look of the place. It is very unique and looks very historic.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Could be a great opportunity for a new mixed use stadium!

While I can see the obvious complete lack of functionality for Molson Stadium, I definitely like the look of the place. It is very unique and looks very historic.

A multipurpose facility would be a terrible idea.

Everybody who goes to Molson seems to enjoy the experience despite the shortcomings that we may see from afar. I'm actually surprised no one has complained about the benches.

[thurmas]

Molson is a beautiful stadium but very limited in the revenue it can generate long term for the Alouettes. If and it is very possible if the Big Owe is torn down or reconfigured into a non stadium entity housing project or mall or whatever then Montreal and the province of Quebec will have no stadium over 25,000 seats which means no Grey Cups and a very hard time attracting large concerts.

[elly63]

Tim Hortons Field Update Video - December 13
Site Supervisor Gareth Barkey provides an update on the construction of Tim Hortons Field, highlighting local structural steel contractor Walters Inc.

[fenwick16]

I often wonder if the Toronto MLB team (i.e. the Blue Jays) were in the National League if it might of helped the Expos survive (it appeared for a while that the San Francisco Giants would move to Toronto back in the 1970's). And if a baseball specific park in a better location was built. Eventually the Canadian dollar recovered from the severe lows of the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's, so the Expos' fortunes might have recovered.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I often wonder if the Toronto MLB team (i.e. the Blue Jays) were in the National League if it might of helped the Expos survive (it appeared for a while that the San Francisco Giants would move to Toronto back in the 1970's). And if a baseball specific park in a better location was built. Eventually the Canadian dollar recovered from the severe lows of the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's, so the Expos' fortunes might have recovered.

PS: One amazing team transformation has been the San Francisco Giants. Back in the early to mid-1970's they were getting crowds of a few thousand per game back when they were in Candlestick Park - http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/1970-79attendance.htm. The past few years they have been near the top of MLB - http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2010presentattendance.htm.

(whoops, I didn't mean to quote myself, I intended to add it to my previous post)

[GernB]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Agree to disagree then. The stadium built at the University of Manitoba was small and cheap (only 5,000 permanent seats) and would have been considerably more expensive if they went with a 25,000 permanent seat facility. They had a budget for the games and stuck with it. Not enough money for a CFL stadium..and then there is also the track and field factor. We would lose some intimacy with the stadium having a track around it..one of few flaws with CommonWealth.

And as I said Winnipeg Stadium was only 15 years old upon arrival of the Pan Ams - not exactly getting your moneys worth out of the stadium if you replace it after such a short period.

Edmonton benefitted from circumstances. Clarke Stadium was 40 years old by the time the CommonWealth Games rolled around so it made sense upgrading the facility - the city had gotten their money's worth out of it. Can't compare that to what was a newish Winnipeg Stadium in 1967.

Winnipeg's 1967 Pan Am track and field stadium was originally planned to have 30,000 seats, of which 5-10,000 would be permanent. Due to budgetary problems, it was cut to 20,000. Winnipeg Stadium itself was not suitable for track and field events as there was not enough room to build a track around the playing field without major renovations. I can't seem to post the link from Google News Archive showing a diagram of this stadium, but if you go to that website and a do search you should find it. The proposed stadium is shown very clearly.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I often wonder if the Toronto MLB team (i.e. the Blue Jays) were in the National League if it might of helped the Expos survive (it appeared for a while that the San Francisco Giants would move to Toronto back in the 1970's). And if a baseball specific park in a better location was built. Eventually the Canadian dollar recovered from the severe lows of the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's, so the Expos' fortunes might have recovered.

Not sure. IMO the absolutely brutal mismanagment of Brochu and Loria were far more important in the relocation of the Expos than stadium concerns, although the inability to get anywhere with the Labatt Field proposals were certainly a factor as well.

[P Unit]

I think that more than the Jays being in the National League, the Expos being in the AL East would have helped them tremendously. You'd get enormous gate numbers, particularly on weekends, from Yankees, Red Sox and Jays fans. There were obviously other serious issues, but I always felt like the Expos were too isolated from any of their rivals.

[WhipperSnapper]

Yankees were garbage in the late eighties, early nineties and I remember their stadium being empty while the Jays hammered them

[GernB]

Originally Posted by P Unit

I think that more than the Jays being in the National League, the Expos being in the AL East would have helped them tremendously. You'd get enormous gate numbers, particularly on weekends, from Yankees, Red Sox and Jays fans. There were obviously other serious issues, but I always felt like the Expos were too isolated from any of their rivals.

I have to agree, Montreal in The AL east would be incredible for attendance. It's all 20/20 hindsight. But any division In MLB with Toronto, Montreal, NYY, Boston and whoever else they might put in with them. At least here in Canada.

[thurmas]

GernB I tried your search I didn't see anything showing a stadium proposal for the 1967 pan am games in Winnipeg.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

PS: One amazing team transformation has been the San Francisco Giants. Back in the early to mid-1970's they were getting crowds of a few thousand per game back when they were in Candlestick Park - http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/1970-79attendance.htm. The past few years they have been near the top of MLB - http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2010presentattendance.htm.

(whoops, I didn't mean to quote myself, I intended to add it to my previous post)

If Toronto was in the NL they wouldn't be around either. The Blue Jays, Braves, Phillies, and Expos would of beaten each other up so much during the early 90's, and back then, opposite to now, the better teams were stacked up in the NL. It would of helped the Expos a bit but I think it would of had a net loss for the Blue Jays and they would of not had their success with two rings.

The Expos in the AL East with Toronto, Boston, and Montreal makes a lot of sense. It would be the "NFC East" of Baseball in time with 4 cities with natural competitive histories between them. Nobody in Toronto or Montreal would get sick of playing each other 20 times per year, especially when it means something versus the old novelty Canada day series of the past.

Plus, it would give Canadian teams a cover to not fully embrace and partake in US only holidays. The Jays have to do a lot of dome stuff for purely American holidays and the least baseball could do is make American teams were a maple leaf or even a star and maple leaf combo on their hat and jerseys one day a year to show Canadian support. The Jays have to wear American themed stuff on July 4th and it's always made me sick that they are forced by the league to do so. Let the a Expos and Jays play 4 games at that time so they can be shielded from all the American propaganda that goes one league wide on the 4th.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GernB

Winnipeg's 1967 Pan Am track and field stadium was originally planned to have 30,000 seats, of which 5-10,000 would be permanent. Due to budgetary problems, it was cut to 20,000. Winnipeg Stadium itself was not suitable for track and field events as there was not enough room to build a track around the playing field without major renovations. I can't seem to post the link from Google News Archive showing a diagram of this stadium, but if you go to that website and a do search you should find it. The proposed stadium is shown very clearly.

That isn't very far off from what was ultimately built... the Pan Am Stadium has about 4,000 permanent seats, and through temporary seating it was expanded to slightly over 10,000 seats for the 1967 and 1999 Pan Am Games.

Unfortunately this stadium (like so many other things around Winnipeg) has not been very well maintained... a new track surface was installed for the 1999 Pan Am Games, but the grandstand and facilities appear to have barely been touched since 1967. Even with a brand new stadium next door, Pan Am Stadium will remain in place because it is the best track and field facility in the province.

Here's a vintage pic of Pan Am Stadium as it appeared before the 1967 Pan Am Games. The site still looks more or less like this, except that the temporary seating on the right side of the field is no longer there (although it came back for the 1999 PAG).



Source: West End Dumplings

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GernB

I have to agree, Montreal in The AL east would be incredible for attendance. It's all 20/20 hindsight. But any division In MLB with Toronto, Montreal, NYY, Boston and whoever else they might put in with them. At least here in Canada.

The Expos in the AL East (as opposed to NL East like they were) would help attendance for sure but not enough to ensure the viability of the team or make the difference compared to the old situation that faltered.

[GernB]

Originally Posted by thurmas

GernB I tried your search I didn't see anything showing a stadium proposal for the 1967 pan am games in Winnipeg.

I'll try again. Essentially it's a newspaper picture of a diagram of what was supposed to be built on the U of M campus. Nothing special from what I can see but it gives an idea of what was planned, just grandstands on both sides.

Still can't post it, but esquire's picture looks very much like the diagram I'm referring to. A larger grandstand on the right side of the field but not much difference otherwise. The drawing makes it look very symmetrical, as if they were planning to leave a lerge part of it behind.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by osmo

Plus, it would give Canadian teams a cover to not fully embrace and partake in US only holidays. The Jays have to do a lot of dome stuff for purely American holidays and the least baseball could do is make American teams were a maple leaf or even a star and maple leaf combo on their hat and jerseys one day a year to show Canadian support. The Jays have to wear American themed stuff on July 4th and it's always made me sick that they are forced by the league to do so. Let the a Expos and Jays play 4 games at that time so they can be shielded from all the American propaganda that goes one league wide on the 4th.

Why should the MLB cater to Canadian teams though? That's sort of the price of admission to joining a foreign league instead of creating/supporting your own. It's their league ("America's pastime"), so if you want to be part of that, you get to be part of all of it, over the top American patriotism included. It is a league for Americans first, and that is what it will always be; in the end, they don't really care (or need to care) if a Canadian city or two tags along.