Zibi Ottawa Ontario | U/C

[Aylmer]

That's not the impression the Algonquin speaker gave during her speech at the event - She said that the first nation wants development and that they were excited about the project, but that they wanted to be consulted and have certain aboriginal elements integrated (which I'm guessing is the aboriginal centre) and that they were delighted how proactive Windmill has been.

I totally see the aboriginal centre as a logical addition to the project - it's been planned since forever ago and this development is going to make the area a whole lot more accessible. And this is a traditional and sacred site for the Algonquin nation - if they can allow us to develop it, we can certainly make the effort to do it in a respectful way.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I hope the First Nations don't delay the project. One of the chiefs is already saying the project should wait 'til they get their Aboriginal centre on Victoria Island (a totally irrational request in my opinion).

Why irrational?

[McC]

Seems like a perfectly sound tactical manoeuver to me. "We've wanted to build this centre here, and have had approval in principle for ages, but 'you' haven't done much of anything to make it a reality, now 'you' want 'our' blessing to do big things with most of the rest of the land in the area? Well okay, but we're going to need a commitment on our "quid" up front before we give the "pro quo", 'cause y'all ain't great at keeping promises to First Nations."

[McC]

Yeesh, can we get some proofreading in aisle 2, please?

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Hundreds give enthusiastic reception to Domtar lands plan

Windmill Developments holds first in series of public consultations

By Robert Sibley, OTTAWA CITIZEN December 11, 2013 11:00 PM

Mark Holzman, a former sustained-community researcher with Central Housing and Mortgage Corp.,

A former sustainable communities researcher at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., perhaps?

If Ottawans need models for the kind of project Windmill has in mind, they might look at Calgary’s Dockside Green development, the Distillery District in Toronto, or Vancouver’s Granville Island development.

Victoria's Dockside Green?

And the repeated refusal to refer to the Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg First Nation, even in the same paragraph as Cardinal and Westeinde do so, reads obnoxiously to me.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by McC

Seems like a perfectly sound tactical manoeuver to me.

Yes it does. If it is certain that such a center will be built anyway, then it does seem like a good move to build it in the first phase of the redevelopment.

[McC]

Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer

Yes it does. If it is certain that such a center will be built anyway, then it does seem like a good move to build it in the first phase of the redevelopment.

"Indian giving" noun, to offer something and later take/demand it back; term is a bastardization of "giving to Indians" in reference to colonial governments, settlers and post-colonial governments in their duplicitous constitutional, economic and political relations with First Nations; highly-offensive and historically-inaccurate usage.

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Why irrational?

This is a private sector project. The Victoria Islands are owned by the government. This project should be allowed to move at the pace of the market and not at the pace of the federal government. You can't hold a company (which has money) hostage until the government (which has no money, is trying to balance the budget, and seems to have little interest in legacy projects for 2017) decides to find the money, do whatever assessments need to be done, and then consult "all Canadians". I think the Indigenous centre is a good idea, but it should have nothing to do with the Windmill project.

[kevinbottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

That's not the impression the Algonquin speaker gave during her speech at the event - She said that the first nation wants development and that they were excited about the project, but that they wanted to be consulted and have certain aboriginal elements integrated (which I'm guessing is the aboriginal centre) and that they were delighted how proactive Windmill has been.

Whiteduck told the Citizen on Monday that a long talked-about National Indigenous Centre on Victoria Island should be an integral part of redevelopment of the former Domtar lands.

“I don’t believe this project should go forward without the indigenous centre. It should be the jewel in the crown” of Ottawa riverfront redevelopment, he said.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Domtar+land...y+Gatineau+mayor+says/9237977/story.html

[agl]

If the Algonquin were to give their blessing to the development of the land with only the continued "promise" from the feds that an indigenous centre will come, they will have nothing left to try and force the hand of government, and more delays to building the centre would not only be possible, but more than likely to occur. With Ottawa, Gatineau, and the NCC on board with Windmill, you would have 4 parties algning with the Algonquin to push the Feds to build the centre in conjunction with the overall development (albeit the NCC is part of the Fed machine).

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by agl

If the Algonquin were to give their blessing to the development of the land with only the continued "promise" from the feds that an indigenous centre will come, they will have nothing left to try and force the hand of government, and more delays to building the centre would not only be possible, but more than likely to occur. With Ottawa, Gatineau, and the NCC on board with Windmill, you would have 4 parties algning with the Algonquin to push the Feds to build the centre in conjunction with the overall development (albeit the NCC is part of the Fed machine).

That's all well and good, but the bottom line is that Windmill's development of their own private land has nothing to do with the Algonquin's desire for an aboriginal centre on the federally owned Victoria Island. Any suggestion that they are somehow connected, by Whiteduck or others, is pure politics.

[agl]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

That's all well and good, but the bottom line is that Windmill's development of their own private land has nothing to do with the Algonquin's desire for an aboriginal centre on the federally owned Victoria Island. Any suggestion that they are somehow connected, by Whiteduck or others, is pure politics.

Except that some if not all that private land that Windmill just purchased is part of the Algonquin land claim, not just a little parcel on Victoria Island where they one day hope to have an indigenous centre. This is certainly part of the reason Windmill is consulting with the Algonquin people in the first place as part of the overall development of the site.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by agl

Except that some if not all that private land that Windmill just purchased is part of the Algonquin land claim, not just a little parcel on Victoria Island where they one day hope to have an indigenous centre. This is certainly part of the reason Windmill is consulting with the Algonquin people in the first place as part of the overall development of the site.

While it is most certainly politically correct, and provides good optics, to consult with the Algonquins, it is my understanding that native land claims really only affect land that is in the public domain (ie. federal or provincial land, depending to whom the claim is being made).

[agl]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

While it is most certainly politically correct, and provides good optics, to consult with the Algonquins, it is my understanding that native land claims really only affect land that is in the public domain (ie. federal or provincial land, depending to whom the claim is being made).

I will certainly not profess to be an expert on land claims, but it appears that for the largest land claim in the province - Algonquin land claim - a large portion includes privately held land. However, as part of the negotiations it was decided that no private land would be expropriated.

Even if the private land does not fall under the land claim, I have to say I am with the Algonquin on this one. There should be a permanent installation on the Ottawa River that commemorates the Aboriginal people and their history in this area, and this development presents the best opportunity to push for that. I recognize this would appear to hold the private developer (and both cities) hostage over something they have no semblance of control over, but how else but for the almighty dollar do you succeed in recognizing those that have been pushed from their lands and marginalized from society for so long?

[gmarshall]

Here's a couple of my aerial photos of the Chaudieres area. Both were taken a year ago in December 2012. To see a more thorough set, you can check out the gallery at:

http://aerialphotographs.ca/chaudieres

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by McC

Seems like a perfectly sound tactical manoeuver to me. "We've wanted to build this centre here, and have had approval in principle for ages, but 'you' haven't done much of anything to make it a reality, now 'you' want 'our' blessing to do big things with most of the rest of the land in the area? Well okay, but we're going to need a commitment on our "quid" up front before we give the "pro quo", 'cause y'all ain't great at keeping promises to First Nations."

A++ Can't agree more.

Though I would add this development does not technically include Victoria island. Also, it's arguably the location most valuable and important to the First Nations in our nation's capital. It's development must respect the First Nation's place in the federation and more so as this location has been a sacred to the First Nations long before the idea of 'settler colonialism' changed the world as everyone knew it at that time.

Victoria island has been a special place for the First Nations for many centuries. To them it is Asinabka (Place of Glare Rock), and was a site of convergence for trade and spiritual and cultural exchange. Its position—at the meeting place of three rivers and perched on a rocky point overlooking fast-moving water—gave it even more significant meaning.

Samuel de Champlain later was the first European to visit the islands. Describing the falls:
"At one place the water falls with such violence upon a rock, that, in the course of time, there has been hollowed out in it a wide and deep basin, so that the water flows round and round there and makes, in the middle, great whirlpools. Hence, the savages call it Asticou, which means kettle. This waterfall makes such a noise that it can be heard for more than two leagues off."[2]

A sense of belonging and respect for their place in our federation has long been absent and even repressed. This is an opportunity to do things better.

The notion of First Nation's NIMBYism (though not accusing anyone of thinking that) is heavy with irony.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

This is a private sector project. The Victoria Islands are owned by the government. This project should be allowed to move at the pace of the market and not at the pace of the federal government. You can't hold a company (which has money) hostage until the government (which has no money, is trying to balance the budget, and seems to have little interest in legacy projects for 2017) decides to find the money, do whatever assessments need to be done, and then consult "all Canadians". I think the Indigenous centre is a good idea, but it should have nothing to do with the Windmill project.

So now private development exists within 'the commons' or must account for the public interest and posterity?
I disagree. If any development did this surely would be the leading case for it in this city.

When would you say the interests of private-profit developers yield common good?

But I would say the Federal government needs to step up to do it's job in accounting for the long term development of it's capital.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

This is a private sector project. The Victoria Islands are owned by the government. This project should be allowed to move at the pace of the market and not at the pace of the federal government. You can't hold a company (which has money) hostage until the government (which has no money, is trying to balance the budget, and seems to have little interest in legacy projects for 2017) decides to find the money, do whatever assessments need to be done, and then consult "all Canadians". I think the Indigenous centre is a good idea, but it should have nothing to do with the Windmill project.

Sure you can. Happens all the time. One might not like it but it would only be "irrational" if it were ineffective. I think past experience shows that it can indeed be effective.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

That's all well and good, but the bottom line is that Windmill's development of their own private land has nothing to do with the Algonquin's desire for an aboriginal centre on the federally owned Victoria Island. Any suggestion that they are somehow connected, by Whiteduck or others, is pure politics.

I'm sorry, what was your point?

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by DenVan

Yeah, I was surprised how many people turned out. And how little actual information was given out tonight.
It told me that there's a remarkable amount of excitement out there for this, that with such a massive, complicated project there are lots of political forces and competing interests at play, and that Windmill is going to be fairly careful to keep a positive spin going and avoid controversy.
Shame though, for a consultation, I would've liked to have seen some actual sketches, maps, or ideas. It's very hard to react to "principles".

I don't recall a major development in Ottawa ever starting with this much near-unanimous enthusiasm. It's a brilliant location and I could easily see myself living there Like you I'm eager to see real plans.

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

While it is most certainly politically correct, and provides good optics, to consult with the Algonquins, it is my understanding that native land claims really only affect land that is in the public domain (ie. federal or provincial land, depending to whom the claim is being made).

Nope. Private land in Canada was given or sold by the crown to private parties. If the crown did not have title to the land, then the sale or gift wasn't valid and title couldn't have passed. It would remain native land. Other wise it would be easy for the government to just sell the land to a private party, buy it back and have clear title.

This is why it's important to take native land claims seriously. This really is their land, in a legal sense, not just a moral 'we should pat them on their heads and be nice to them' way.