Calgary Public Transit II

[Chadillaccc]

One could say Red Deer is on the verge of becoming a major city... at least by Western Canadian standards. A municipal population of 100 000 with a metro of over 150 000. Obviously that is inconsequential in the debate about the Cascades corridor as all three of those metros are absolutely massive, but the Alberta corridor still does connect 3 large cities, with a total area population of over 3 million now... that's basically 1 million people per 100 km.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

One could say Red Deer is on the verge of becoming a major city... at least by Western Canadian standards. A municipal population of 100 000 with a metro of over 150 000. Obviously that is inconsequential in the debate about the Cascades corridor as all three of those metros are absolutely massive, but the Alberta corridor still does connect 3 large cities, with a total area population of over 3 million now... that's basically 1 million people per 100 km.

At the risk of being thrown out of the red neck pub, I'd almost think that it not worth to put in a Red Deer stop at all. What you'd do is have it bullet between Edmonton and Calgary without stops in the middle till some future point where Red Deer hits say 400,000 people or what have you, and then slice in two. This would actually also defer 'some' costs as well as making it most efficient for the big centres. Secondly, installing the direct Calgary-Edmonton connection should be part of a summer Olympics bid, featuring a real stadium in Calgary.

[Calgarian]

There should be 2 trains, one directly to Edmonton and one with a stop in Red Deer.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by suburbia

At the risk of being thrown out of the red neck pub, I'd almost think that it not worth to put in a Red Deer stop at all. What you'd do is have it bullet between Edmonton and Calgary without stops in the middle till some future point where Red Deer hits say 400,000 people or what have you, and then slice in two. This would actually also defer 'some' costs as well as making it most efficient for the big centres. Secondly, installing the direct Calgary-Edmonton connection should be part of a summer Olympics bid, featuring a real stadium in Calgary.

In all the HSR studies, Red Deer is mentioned as definite station along with Calgary downtown, Calgary Suburban(essential where Deerfoot and Airport Trail interchange), Edmonton Suburban(South Edmonton Common), and Edmonton Downtown. The only optional stations are Leduc/Edmonton Airport and Airdrie.

For political reasons you will never be able to run HSR through Red Deer without putting in a stop. Also a stop in Red Deer would likely only add about 5 minutes onto the total trip time.

From a cost perspective, a rural Red Deer stop would be less expensive than taking HSR into both (or even one of) Calgary and Edmonton. To do it economically, the HSR stop for Calgary should likely be located just north of the Telus science center or even at the afore mentioned Deerfoot/Airport Trail location. Then have a second stop in South Edmonton, possibly around South Edmonton common. At each HSR terminus a new transit hub would be established to take passengers the "last mile" into the city or surrounding area.

Calgary there might be a good reason to build the station downtown. But getting HSR into downtown Edmonton does not have any good options unless bulldozing Mill Creek is considered a good idea. I would like to see Don Iveson's reaction to that proposal.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Cage

In all the HSR studies, Red Deer is mentioned as definite station along with Calgary downtown, Calgary Suburban(essential where Deerfoot and Airport Trail interchange), Edmonton Suburban(South Edmonton Common), and Edmonton Downtown. The only optional stations are Leduc/Edmonton Airport and Airdrie.

For political reasons you will never be able to run HSR through Red Deer without putting in a stop. Also a stop in Red Deer would likely only add about 5 minutes onto the total trip time.

From a cost perspective, a rural Red Deer stop would be less expensive than taking HSR into both (or even one of) Calgary and Edmonton. To do it economically, the HSR stop for Calgary should likely be located just north of the Telus science center or even at the afore mentioned Deerfoot/Airport Trail location. Then have a second stop in South Edmonton, possibly around South Edmonton common. At each HSR terminus a new transit hub would be established to take passengers the "last mile" into the city or surrounding area.

Calgary there might be a good reason to build the station downtown. But getting HSR into downtown Edmonton does not have any good options unless bulldozing Mill Creek is considered a good idea. I would like to see Don Iveson's reaction to that proposal.

Wrong thread, but the province owns and for a station in downtown Calgary, and two station sites in downtown Edmonton (one at Grandin station on the north side of the High Level Bridge, the other just north of Edmonton City Hall).

The approach into Calgary would be more expensive (two bridges, likely a viaduct and elevated station) whereas in Edmonton the province owns the High Level Bridge ROW.

[bigcanuck]

Originally Posted by Cage

For political reasons you will never be able to run HSR through Red Deer without putting in a stop. Also a stop in Red Deer would likely only add about 5 minutes onto the total trip time.

I would think it would be significantly longer than 5 minutes added to the time. The loading/unloading passengers alone would be more than 5 minutes plus lost time due to acceleration/deceleration from top speed in order to stop.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by bigcanuck

I would think it would be significantly longer than 5 minutes added to the time. The loading/unloading passengers alone would be more than 5 minutes plus lost time due to acceleration/deceleration from top speed in order to stop.

I am fine with a Red Deer stop. They could always add an express train direct city-to-city with a passing track at the Red Deer station at minimal cost. I suspect that every second or third train could be an express depending on demand. A premium on the express tickets would help capture another market segment.

[You Need A Thneed]

Red Deer would have to have a stop. Then have some express trains that don't stop there.

I think the problem with HSR in this corridor - even setting aside population and density - is that you have to go really really fast, or the time savings aren't enough to make people not drive.

People that can make it door to door in 3 hours by car aren't going to take a train that takes two hours between downtowns if they then have to find another form of transport on either end. I just don't see how the system is worth it unless it can get people downtown to downtown, including all stops in 90 minutes or less (preferably less).

At that point you are talking about full grade separation, dedicated track, and a whole lot of money. For the same amount of money, you could build both cities' full LRT systems, and all of their BRT systems as well.

For the amount of work that would have to be done, one would have to consider something like Elon Musk's hyperloop. Perhaps technology like that will be ready to go by the time the province is ready to build. If you could travel at those kinds of speeds for a reasonable price, very few would take their car.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Red Deer would have to have a stop. Then have some express trains that don't stop there.

I think the problem with HSR in this corridor - even setting aside population and density - is that you have to go really really fast, or the time savings aren't enough to make people not drive.

People that can make it door to door in 3 hours by car aren't going to take a train that takes two hours between downtowns if they then have to find another form of transport on either end. I just don't see how the system is worth it unless it can get people downtown to downtown, including all stops in 90 minutes or less (preferably less).

At that point you are talking about full grade separation, dedicated track, and a whole lot of money. For the same amount of money, you could build both cities' full LRT systems, and all of their BRT systems as well.

For the amount of work that would have to be done, one would have to consider something like Elon Musk's hyperloop. Perhaps technology like that will be ready to go by the time the province is ready to build. If you could travel at those kinds of speeds for a reasonable price, very few would take their car.

This ... I don't really see the cost of this line outweighing the benefit at this point

Would rather the province dedicate this money to LRT transit in both cities, then in the future connect the two ... Calgary (at the north end) could have a major transfer hub between this line and the NCLRT to take travellers downtown; while Edmonton could have the same in the south end of the city ... Even at that point the population would have to support the amount of travel

[WaitWhat?]

Originally Posted by H.E.Pennypacker

This ... I don't really see the cost of this line outweighing the benefit at this point

Would rather the province dedicate this money to LRT transit in both cities, then in the future connect the two ... Calgary (at the north end) could have a major transfer hub between this line and the NCLRT to take travellers downtown; while Edmonton could have the same in the south end of the city ... Even at that point the population would have to support the amount of travel

Completely agree. For the amount of money, LRT build-out in both cities should be more of a priority, imo. I'm with the mayors on this one.

[Calgarian]

LRT should absolutely be the priority, but I see nothing wrong with getting the planning started on the HSR (purchasing land and creating ROWs to start).

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Red Deer would have to have a stop. Then have some express trains that don't stop there.

I think the problem with HSR in this corridor - even setting aside population and density - is that you have to go really really fast, or the time savings aren't enough to make people not drive.

People that can make it door to door in 3 hours by car aren't going to take a train that takes two hours between downtowns if they then have to find another form of transport on either end. I just don't see how the system is worth it unless it can get people downtown to downtown, including all stops in 90 minutes or less (preferably less).

At that point you are talking about full grade separation, dedicated track, and a whole lot of money. For the same amount of money, you could build both cities' full LRT systems, and all of their BRT systems as well.

For the amount of work that would have to be done, one would have to consider something like Elon Musk's hyperloop. Perhaps technology like that will be ready to go by the time the province is ready to build. If you could travel at those kinds of speeds for a reasonable price, very few would take their car.

The assumption you are making is HSR would require a capital subsidy similar to LRT's to work. The last couple studies have shown that the capital can be fully recovered by fares for HSR.

[Allan83]

There are a few key points that some people seen to have missed.

1. Studies were done as far back as 10 years ago that showed this project is viable. So unless someone wants to try to point out a flaw in those studies, then this is a viable route, and those socialist, anti-business, Wildrosers are simply wrong about the business case for this project.

2. There would be very little government money involved. Private companies have approached the government and offered to build, own, and operate the line if the government supplies the land. There are no tradeoffs between LRTs and HSR. Furthermore, I suggest that HSR would help drive public transit projects forward. If you start dropping thousands of people in the city centres of Calgary and Edmonton every day, instead of at the airport, bus depot, and entering the city by car, then a lot more of them are going to want to use public transit to get to their next destination.

3. The earlier studies suggested that there would be 5 stops, including the 2 airports and Red Deer, but they also suggested that there would be express trains at peak times which would go straight from city centre to city centre. Just because there are stops at the airports and at Red Deer doesn’t mean the train always has to stop there.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The assumption you are making is HSR would require a capital subsidy similar to LRT's to work. The last couple studies have shown that the capital can be fully recovered by fares for HSR.

I don't know that there is a law against building HSR, is there? If the capital costs can be recovered, and there is no law against doing it, then we should let the private market build it.

As it is, the private market provides 8 Red Arrow buses a day, (a capacity of 288 maximum total), and a similar number of Greyhounds. I think that says something about the demand for public carrier travel between Calgary and Edmonton.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I don't know that there is a law against building HSR, is there? If the capital costs can be recovered, and there is no law against doing it, then we should let the private market build it.

As it is, the private market provides 8 Red Arrow buses a day, (a capacity of 288 maximum total), and a similar number of Greyhounds. I think that says something about the demand for public carrier travel between Calgary and Edmonton.

You’re leaving out air traffic, and also note that the bus doesn’t get you there any quicker than driving, but HSR would at least cut the travel time in half.

A much more detailed study has been done on this. See the RIDERSHIP AND REVENUE FORECASTS section in this document.
http://www.vanhorne.info/files/vanhorne/HSRFullReport%281062004%29.pdf

[andasen]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I don't know that there is a law against building HSR, is there? If the capital costs can be recovered, and there is no law against doing it, then we should let the private market build it.

As it is, the private market provides 8 Red Arrow buses a day, (a capacity of 288 maximum total), and a similar number of Greyhounds. I think that says something about the demand for public carrier travel between Calgary and Edmonton.

Rail is a tricky beast. The large scale land requirements are difficult for the private sector to amass while the gov't is quite adept at it. Once the gov't has the ROW built up it would probably be best to spin it off into a semi-privatized crown corporation (gov't gets 10-25% voting stake on the BoD + a restricted veto to dually optimize profit and public good)

[mellbell416]

This article has a cool display of how the SETWAY will evolve - I thought there was also supposed to be a focus on getting the NC transitway going as well, but there's no mention of that here....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ca...-sneak-peek-of-the-s-e-portion-1.2460434

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

This article has a cool display of how the SETWAY will evolve - I thought there was also supposed to be a focus on getting the NC transitway going as well, but there's no mention of that here....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ca...-sneak-peek-of-the-s-e-portion-1.2460434

Interesting - the development will allow for a 1-way peak flow busway while LRT is being built. Once done, the extra lane could be used as a bikeway. I like this idea!

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Red Deer would have to have a stop. Then have some express trains that don't stop there.

I think the problem with HSR in this corridor - even setting aside population and density - is that you have to go really really fast, or the time savings aren't enough to make people not drive.

People that can make it door to door in 3 hours by car aren't going to take a train that takes two hours between downtowns if they then have to find another form of transport on either end. I just don't see how the system is worth it unless it can get people downtown to downtown, including all stops in 90 minutes or less (preferably less).

At that point you are talking about full grade separation, dedicated track, and a whole lot of money. For the same amount of money, you could build both cities' full LRT systems, and all of their BRT systems as well.

For the amount of work that would have to be done, one would have to consider something like Elon Musk's hyperloop. Perhaps technology like that will be ready to go by the time the province is ready to build. If you could travel at those kinds of speeds for a reasonable price, very few would take their car.

HSR would be considerably cheaper than completing the LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton. It would probably be significantly cheaper than just the Green line. If I remember correctly, when this came up a few years ago, a new greenfield non-HSR rail link would cost something like two billion while an HSR route would cost 3 billion. The price has presumably gone up in the meantime but all of the province's LRT and BRT routes is likely an order of magnitude more.

That said, I still think we're much better off putting the money into local transit systems. That will change when capacity issues between Calgary and Edmonton approach those within the cities. Personally speaking, the willingness of some consortium to be massively subsidized with a free ROW (not to mention the real estate scam that is almost assuredly involved) shouldn't change that. Of course the ROW should be secured while its available.

The less said about Musk's fantasy the better. That is especially so in a corridor where conventional HSR could manage the trip in something like an hour.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

HSR would be considerably cheaper than completing the LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton. It would probably be significantly cheaper than just the Green line. If I remember correctly, when this came up a few years ago, a new greenfield non-HSR rail link would cost something like two billion while an HSR route would cost 3 billion. The price has presumably gone up in the meantime but all of the province's LRT and BRT routes is likely an order of magnitude more.

That said, I still think we're much better off putting the money into local transit systems. That will change when capacity issues between Calgary and Edmonton approach those within the cities. Personally speaking, the willingness of some consortium to be massively subsidized with a free ROW (not to mention the real estate scam that is almost assuredly involved) shouldn't change that. Of course the ROW should be secured while its available.

The less said about Musk's fantasy the better. That is especially so in a corridor where conventional HSR could manage the trip in something like an hour.

I really, really doubt you could build any form of worthwhile HSR for $3B.

You got to buy land, you've got the build over 300 km of new double track suitable for HSR, complete with catenary. Most of all, you have to have the entire thing grade separated from everything else. Every road crossing the line, for 300 km, would have to be raised over the line, or the line raised over it.