Sports in Canadian culture

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Um, go to Eh game on Yahoo sports and check the ratings. Curling BLOWS THE RAPTORS out of the water all the time! In fact Tractor Pulls blow the Raptors out of the water out side of the GTA. I actually think that the only people who watch NBA are in the GTA.

Also, do you know the reason why the NFL went back to Baltimore so soon after the Colts went to Indy? Its because the city embraced the CFL and the Stallions and packed their stadium. Thats why. So if Toronto wanted the NFL to come, then they should have packed Rogers Centre for Argo games, they should have packed Varsity to watch UofT, they should have packed whatever stadium York plays in. Thats how you get the NFL to notice you, not by thumbing your nose at your pro and college teams. Its that simple.

Why do you even care? Newsflash: people in Quebec speak French. Not everyone in Canada is the same. People in Toronto are not representative of people in every corner of Canada. Stop getting your knickers in a knot over something that really doesn't affect you in any way. The Raptors get great ratings in the GTA because they are a team in the GTA. Duh. The way you get the NFL or any major sporting franchise to notice you is not fan base but the amount of $$$ you throw at them.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

Umm read the writers comments, the #3 NFL game are the viewer numbers for just TSN, they do not include the Canadians watching the same game on NBC The actual Canadian viewership was speculated to be well above the 725k when including the NBC viewers, maybe even over 1 million - which would place it #2 behind the NHL that week

Impressive for a sport that has no Canadian representation! No? Imagine if there were one or two Canadian teams...

It assumes that a lot of people watched the game on NBC. We all know what happens when you assume something - it makes an "ass" of "u" and "me"

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by craneSpotter

I think this suspect too. Really? Curling? A popular sport in small towns because you can drink lots of beer! Shuffleboard on ice?

I found this interesting. Canadian Sports TV ratings from late October of this year. It would appear the NFL - foreign teams - did better than the CFL west semi-final between BC and Sask!



link - http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/eh-...195312058.html

If the game is a sim-sub, American channel viewers are counted toward the Canadian channel as that is the one that overtakes the feed. Afterall, simsub is pointless if stations can't tell advertisers what their actual reach is.

Also... the West Semi ratings were 1.621 mill and the East were 1.45m. You are looking at a regular season game.

Source

And yes... curling does actually get high ratings... for example, the olympic qualification tournament (Roar of the Rings):

1. NHL, Leafs at Habs, Saturday, CBC: 2,070,000

2. NHL, Flames at Kings, Saturday, CBC: 751,000

3. NHL, Wings at Senators, Sunday, TSN: 662,000

4. Curling, Olympic trials opening draw, Sunday, TSN: 632,000

5. NFL, Raiders at Cowboys, Thursday, City: 538,000

6. NFL, Sunday early games, CTV: 478,000

Source

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Marquee events in smaller markets will get disproportionate support than ones in markets where marquee events occur daily. It's simply a numbers game.

Except that a Rider game isn't viewed as a "marquee" event here... it's a normal 10 times a year every summer/fall set of events.

Examples of Marquee events in Regina this last year... The Junos... The Grey Cup... Paul McCartney...

[mistercorporate]

Large cities have infinitely more things to do in terms of cultural and social options, you'd have to be a brain dead anti-social hick to not know that. Are some of you guys purposefully obstinate or do we really have to break down basic concepts into simple English for you to comprehend? As for London (UK), a city I lived in for close to a decade, it's a one sport town (unlike Toronto's multiple professional league teams), I don't even recall any other sport being mentioned in all the years I lived there. They have century old family traditions of supporting certain soccer teams, to the point where there are gangs with hundreds of members loyal to certain clubs that go to different neighbourhoods associated with certain teams and stab random people as if it was some sort of blood feud lol. People in Regina are not made from a special genetic material that makes them special and different to support their team with such zeal. They fund their CFL team at a provincial level because the lack of social/cultural options is a pressing governance issue that requires subsidizing. If one of Toronto's teams were to fold, people wouldn't be protesting in the streets simply because they have far more things to capture their attention and entertainment hours. And to the people that stated that there are cities with a million people that have the same attractions and cultural pedigree of a city with 3 million...you're clearly not a big city person. Anyone who has lived in a city of 8 million+ and enjoyed it would really feel the culture shock in a smaller town. Toronto and Chicago to me are the bare minimum size of city I can tolerate (heck, until 5 years ago, Toronto felt like a village to me, it's only recently it achieved the current level of urban and social development), anything smaller feels like a cultural wasteland. And yes, I'm including little ancient French villages, none of them hold a candle to Paris (I've lived all over France and as quaint, social and peaceful as the small towns there are they're pretty sleepy relative to the City of Lights). I have a home in the country with just 5,000 people in the district, I enjoy it very much but i'm not so deluded to claim it has the same cultural and social options as a city with several million.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by Allan83

Do you go to a lot of live curling events too? Canadian curlers are the best in the world, and curling is a very popular sport in Canada drawing much bigger television audiences than the Raptors and Jays.

If you go to Raptors and Jays games then you will know that their announced attendance numbers are a lot different than the actual number of bums in the seats. In fact both of those teams do have attendance problems, and have had for many years. Iirc the Raptors reduced ticket prices recently to try to boost attendance, in spite of the fact that on paper they’re doing fine. The reason they’re on TSN2 is because their ratings were awful on TSN the other networks that carried them, (including the CBC which should not have been covering them in any event.) So, while I’ve certainly heard the p.o.v. you’re expressing before, in fact people don’t go to these games in great numbers, or even watch them on television, and for the NFL I’m sure it would be even worse. NFL tickets are very expensive, and the game is very slow, and if you’re not really a true fan of the game they’re tough to sit through.

While I’m familiar with your p.o.v. overall I’d say that it’s very non-traditional. Most people go to sports they know and like, or just to cheer on the home team. College sports are huge in the US for example, and by definition none of them are the “best”, but they draw huge crowds because people like cheering for the home team. The Riders are a good example in Canada of a team that has a lot of fans who don’t have a strong understanding of football, but who like to have fun cheering on the home team. It’s kind of a community thing, and a bonding thing. If you do really understand a sport, otoh, then you can appreciate the highest levels of play from that standpoint, like top level soccer, the NHL, CFL football, etc.. It’s pretty unusual, however, to not really understand a sport but to still go to a lot of games just because you perceive it to be the highest level of the sport. If you don’t really understand the game then you’re not really going to appreciate the skills you’re watching, and to pay top dollar to do that is strange. Doing this I think is more a function of trying to make oneself feel “world class”, to use a popular Toronto term, rather than being a function of being a true fan of the sport itself. In other words I think it’s a form of compensating behaviour. Furthermore, I find that people who say this don’t in fact watch a lot of curling, or the top Canadian Olympic athletes, for example, and what they do watch is almost exclusively “major league” American sports, so it seems that they feel that by attaching themselves to a particular kind of American cultural identity they will fell more worthy, or more “world class.” But I don’t think this really works, and I don’t think it lasts, and this has led to the big attendance drop offs and ongoing attendance issues for the Jays and Raptors.

I don't watch curling because the sport just doesn't interest me. I don't watch the Jays and Raptors merely because their respective leagues represent the best talent in the sport, but because I also genuinely enjoy baseball and basketball. If I'm going to spend the time and money to follow a team closely, I have to both enjoy the sport and feel like I'm watching it at its highest level. I can't imagine why anyone would follow a team without genuinely enjoying the sport itself, though I did notice a lot of people at Jays games last season who clearly knew nothing about the team or the sport, but were there because the Jays had become fashionable. edit: I can also appreciate the community-bonding aspect of sports which is why I don't begrudge them for it, and which is why I would take in an Argos or TFC game myself if they were in the playoffs.

I also want to cheer for a Toronto team. I like football (and I'll watch the Argos if they're in the playoffs) but I'm not sure why I should have any interest in cheering for Buffalo's team.

I can't speak for others, but your theory about wanting to attach to an American brand doesn't really apply to me. MLS, for example, is a predominately American league, but I still don't have a lot of interest in watching the Toronto FC. The quality of soccer is still mediocre. If anything, I'd rather have a Toronto soccer team that plays in the Euro leagues.

The Raptors did reduce ticket prices a couple years ago, but they're still in top third of the league for ticket prices. They're not exactly giving tickets away. And despite only making the playoffs 5 times in their near 20 year history, they've never averaged lower than league average attendance, and are usually in the top half. I think you're out to lunch on the Jays attendance. They got higher attendance last season than they've had in 15 years, and have great television ratings.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

A lot of people do those things. Having a large population allows you to support a variety of cultural options. God knows I'd rather watch an original theater production than share space with a bunch of failed jocks who think they actually have a vested and emotional interest in some physical activity they haven't participated in since high school.

That's a very narrow minded way of looking at it. I was a star athlete in high school, but I won't end up in any professional leagues. Does this mean that any time I watch sports I try to live vicariously through other people? How about I just enjoy the spectacle and drama of sport, or do you think that only failed actors watch movies?

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Um, go to Eh game on Yahoo sports and check the ratings. Curling BLOWS THE RAPTORS out of the water all the time! In fact Tractor Pulls blow the Raptors out of the water out side of the GTA. I actually think that the only people who watch NBA are in the GTA.

I don't know, the NBA is huge in Vancouver and we don't even have a team. That being said I'm not surprised the Raptors have bad ratings, as most NBA fans, at least around here, pick random teams from around the league to support, much like what people do for the NFL.


Anyway back to the NFL, why are there so many of you cheering AGAINST the CFL? I can understand if you prefer the NFL, but to the point of hoping and cheering for it to kill out the CFL? Just doesn't make sense. If you live in Vancouver or Toronto, you already basically have home teams in Seattle and Buffalo respectively. Why are you trying to prove (unsuccessfully I might add) that its ratings beat the CFL's? Are you guys some sort of ambassadors or something? We must be the only country in the world where people go against our own product in hope of an imported one.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Large cities have infinitely more things to do in terms of cultural and social options, you'd have to be a brain dead anti-social hick to not know that. Are some of you guys purposefully obstinate or do we really have to break down basic concepts into simple English for you to comprehend? As for London (UK), a city I lived in for close to a decade, it's a one sport town, I don't even recall any other sport being mentioned in all the years I lived there. They have century old family traditions of supporting certain soccer teams, to the point where there are gangs with hundreds of members loyal to certain clubs that go to different neighbourhoods associated with certain teams and stab random people as if it was some sort of blood feud lol. People in Regina are not made from a special genetic material that makes them special and different to support their team with such zeal. They fund their CFL team at a provincial level because the lack of social/cultural options is a pressing governance issue that requires subsidizing. If one of Toronto's teams were fold, people wouldn't be protesting in the streets simply because they have far more things to capture their attention and entertainment hours.

I'm not even sure why Toronto gets picked on in this regard because that other large ONE sport town in Canada, couldn't support a baseball franchise and even folded their football franchise for awhile for lack of support. Does that make it a shitty sports town too? And on the flip side if other Canadian cities were such great sports towns, where are all their hockey, football, baseball and basketball teams?

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

That's a very narrow minded way of looking at it. I was a star athlete in high school, but I won't end up in any professional leagues. Does this mean that any time I watch sports I try to live vicariously through other people? How about I just enjoy the spectacle and drama of sport, or do you think that only failed actors watch movies?

I don't know, the NBA is huge in Vancouver and we don't even have a team. That being said I'm not surprised the Raptors have bad ratings, as most NBA fans, at least around here, pick random teams from around the league to support, much like what people do for the NFL.


Anyway back to the NFL, why are there so many of you cheering AGAINST the CFL? I can understand if you prefer the NFL, but to the point of hoping and cheering for it to kill out the CFL? Just doesn't make sense. If you live in Vancouver or Toronto, you already basically have home teams in Seattle and Buffalo respectively. Why are you trying to prove (unsuccessfully I might add) that its ratings beat the CFL's? Are you guys some sort of ambassadors or something? We must be the only country in the world where people go against our own product in hope of an imported one.

Um, if the NBA was that big in Vancouver, you'd still have an NBA team, dontchathink?

And yeah, I do think there's something suspect about support for spectator sports in general. Maybe it's the buried Marxist in me.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Um, if the NBA was that big in Vancouver, you'd still have an NBA team, dontchathink?

I didn't live in Vancouver/was too young when we had the Grizzlies so I can't really comment on it, but from what I've heard it was more a management/Canadian dollar problem than fan support. And if it wasn't big then, it certainly is now. Our large Chinese demographic has contributed greatly to that, and walking around my high school you definitely saw more NBA stuff than NHL merchandaise even. No doubt about it.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I didn't live in Vancouver/was too young when we had the Grizzlies so I can't really comment on it, but from what I've heard it was more a management/Canadian dollar problem than fan support. And if it wasn't big then, it certainly is now. Our large Chinese demographic has contributed greatly to that, and walking around my high school you definitely saw more NBA stuff than NHL merchandaise even. No doubt about it.

From what I remember the issue was a low Canadian dollar and not enough corporate partners. I've read that these days Vancouver would probably be able to maintain an NBA team without difficulty.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

My thoughts exactly. Whenever people bring up the "We have so much more to do" excuse in big cities, I wonder: Who actually goes to art museums and live theatre?

Usually the rich and those with an interest in the arts. The normal people go to the restaurants, the bars, the clubs, the coffee shops, the whatever. Affordable stuff that you can enjoy on a daily basis. I've lived in several big and medium-sized cities in my life, and what's being said is true. When I lived in London and Kingston, I went to several minor league and university games in sports that I would never have watched when I was in Toronto. Tickets were cheap-ish and there was nothing better to do. Not so in Toronto.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by theman23

Usually the rich and those with an interest in the arts. The normal people go to the restaurants, the bars, the clubs, the coffee shops, the whatever. Affordable stuff that you can enjoy on a daily basis. I've lived in several big and medium-sized cities in my life, and what's being said is true. When I lived in London and Kingston, I went to several minor league and university games in sports that I would never have watched when I was in Toronto. Tickets were cheap-ish and there was nothing better to do. Not so in Toronto.

Point taken. Maybe it's cause I'm such a big sports fan, no matter what city I was in sports would be one of my first entertainment options, no matter the league.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Gerrard

Why do you even care? Newsflash: people in Quebec speak French. Not everyone in Canada is the same. People in Toronto are not representative of people in every corner of Canada. Stop getting your knickers in a knot over something that really doesn't affect you in any way. The Raptors get great ratings in the GTA because they are a team in the GTA. Duh. The way you get the NFL or any major sporting franchise to notice you is not fan base but the amount of $$$ you throw at them.

The reason I care is that if the NFL comes to Toronto and the Argos fold then there is a real chance that the entire CFL folds. So yes I have a vested interest in making sure the Argos continue to operate and prosper in the GTA.

Also, there is no doubt that Rogers and other people in the GTA have big bucks to throw at the NFL to get a team. But when the owners see the lukewarm support for football at all levels at a potential new city, they will not come no matter how much money you have. A full stadium with rabid fans is the image you want, not a half empty place with a bunch of dis-interested suits.

[Ramako]

Now that we're on the topic and I've been thinking about it, I think I'd be far more interested in watching the Argos if there more than 8 (soon 9) teams in the CFL. Almost every team makes the playoffs. Doesn't the regular season seems kind of pointless? Doesn't seeing the same teams over and over again get boring?

I think I could get into more if there were, say, 16-20 teams. Plus, it would be fun to get teams and fans coming in from Halifax, London, Quebec City or Victoria.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by mistercorporate

Large cities have infinitely more things to do in terms of cultural and social options, you'd have to be a brain dead anti-social hick to not know that. Are some of you guys purposefully obstinate or do we really have to break down basic concepts into simple English for you to comprehend?

Apparently name calling is still the main extent of your arguments. Are you threatened by other people's logic?

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

The reason I care is that if the NFL comes to Toronto and the Argos fold then there is a real chance that the entire CFL folds. So yes I have a vested interest in making sure the Argos continue to operate and prosper in the GTA.

Also, there is no doubt that Rogers and other people in the GTA have big bucks to throw at the NFL to get a team. But when the owners see the lukewarm support for football at all levels at a potential new city, they will not come no matter how much money you have. A full stadium with rabid fans is the image you want, not a half empty place with a bunch of dis-interested suits.

From what I've heard, one of the major conditions for the NFL coming to Toronto is that the Argos are looked after. The speculation is that MLSE would buy the Argos (for relative peanuts) and stick them at BMO Field, thus ensuring their existence and removing any danger that an NFL team would be an existential threat to the Argos.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Ramako

Now that we're on the topic and I've been thinking about it, I think I'd be far more interested in watching the Argos if there more than 8 (soon 9) teams in the CFL. Almost every team makes the playoffs. Doesn't the regular season seems kind of pointless? Doesn't seeing the same teams over and over again get boring?

I think I could get into more if there were, say, 16-20 teams. Plus, it would be fun to get teams and fans coming in from Halifax, London, Quebec City or Victoria.

I agree, to me that is the one downside of the CFL is the limited amount of teams. Football is supposed to be a sport where every game matters, but you can easily lose half your games and still make the playoffs. I wish we had divisional and wild card battles like the NFL does, because the season doesn't really heat up until the last few weeks unlike the NFL where you have to be winning from game 1.

However, that isn't enough to make me stop watching as I enjoy gameplay a lot more than standings and winning and all that stuff. Sports are just fun to watch.

But I definitely agree, the more teams the CFL gets the better it would be.

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by elly63

Apparently name calling is still the main extent of your arguments. Are you threatened by other people's logic?

Apparently trolling is all you're good for, keep it up, you're easily one of the dumbest and most emotional (YOU actually used the word logic in a sentence??? LOL!!) people on this forum. How's the cow tipping and country line dancing going?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Allan83

Do you go to a lot of live curling events too? Canadian curlers are the best in the world, and curling is a very popular sport in Canada drawing much bigger television audiences than the Raptors and Jays.

If you go to Raptors and Jays games then you will know that their announced attendance numbers are a lot different than the actual number of bums in the seats. In fact both of those teams do have attendance problems, and have had for many years. Iirc the Raptors reduced ticket prices recently to try to boost attendance, in spite of the fact that on paper they’re doing fine. The reason they’re on TSN2 is because their ratings were awful on TSN the other networks that carried them, (including the CBC which should not have been covering them in any event.) So, while I’ve certainly heard the p.o.v. you’re expressing before, in fact people don’t go to these games in great numbers, or even watch them on television, and for the NFL I’m sure it would be even worse. NFL tickets are very expensive, and the game is very slow, and if you’re not really a true fan of the game they’re tough to sit through.

While I’m familiar with your p.o.v. overall I’d say that it’s very non-traditional. Most people go to sports they know and like, or just to cheer on the home team. College sports are huge in the US for example, and by definition none of them are the “best”, but they draw huge crowds because people like cheering for the home team. The Riders are a good example in Canada of a team that has a lot of fans who don’t have a strong understanding of football, but who like to have fun cheering on the home team. It’s kind of a community thing, and a bonding thing. If you do really understand a sport, otoh, then you can appreciate the highest levels of play from that standpoint, like top level soccer, the NHL, CFL football, etc.. It’s pretty unusual, however, to not really understand a sport but to still go to a lot of games just because you perceive it to be the highest level of the sport. If you don’t really understand the game then you’re not really going to appreciate the skills you’re watching, and to pay top dollar to do that is strange. Doing this I think is more a function of trying to make oneself feel “world class”, to use a popular Toronto term, rather than being a function of being a true fan of the sport itself. In other words I think it’s a form of compensating behaviour. Furthermore, I find that people who say this don’t in fact watch a lot of curling, or the top Canadian Olympic athletes, for example, and what they do watch is almost exclusively “major league” American sports, so it seems that they feel that by attaching themselves to a particular kind of American cultural identity they will fell more worthy, or more “world class.” But I don’t think this really works, and I don’t think it lasts, and this has led to the big attendance drop offs and ongoing attendance issues for the Jays and Raptors.

I think what Ramako and most people in Toronto do is very typical and you've demonstrated that. People like to watch the highest level sports teams in your backyard. In Toronto, that would be the Leafs, Raptors, and Blue Jays. In Saskatchewan, that would be the Riders. You just admitted that no one in Saskatchewan actually cares about football, so I'm not sure where your argument that people in the rest of Canada are "true sports fans" comes from. If a minor league football team moved into whichever-city-the-riders-play-in, no one would watch them.

And lots of people in the GTA watch curling. But most of those were born before World War 2, so its not exactly a fair question to post on this forum.