Calgary Public Transit II

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

From the Herald article, it sounds like we will be going the BRT route in the short term with the intent of having a NC SE connected route by 2018. The goal is to reduce a 80 minute SE route to 45 minute express run.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Cross+city+rapid+link+built+pieces+2018/9225624/story.html

In the north-central portion, Calgary Transit plans bus-only lanes on Centre Street. That will often mean removing traffic lanes, although the city feels that’s worth it. Centre Street carries 30,000 transit users a day and 20,000 vehicles, senior transit planner Chris Jordan said.

Did not expect that it carried possibly more transit users than cars.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by fusili

More of less, yes. Not sure about the NC portion, but the SE portion can mostly be built as a BRT and just converted to rail. Several bridges have to be built anyway. I think they will just asphalt it and then put rails into the asphalt when they are ready to convert to rail, ALA 7th avenue.

If they are building the bridges for the busway and the bridges are some of the most expensive components, would it cost that much more to just build it for LRT? I suppose the subway will be the most expensive component by far and that will be required for the Northern section.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

If Centre has a bus only lane, id be concerned about the optics of sitting in a car in rush hour traffic while only 1 bus goes by every 1, 2 or 3 minutes in the dedicated lane.

From what I hear, there are a ton of busses that use Centre Street and they could probably form a steady stream in a busway.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The CPR sells and leases land all the time, and this land is far more useless to them than most. [...] The CPR could without any fuss settle into a double track eight feet apart with a spur for the Rocky Mountaineer and Royal Canadian Pacific.

This is odd, usually you're the one saying we're being naive...

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I don't disagree with that, but if it can't realistically be funded or built, it's irrelevant. We can't get the 8th Ave Subway built, and now were planning not one, but two additional unnecessary subways and calling this a serious proposal?

I think we're mostly discussing just the SELRT - part of which encompasses the subway portion downtown in the Beltline .. I agree that funding is the issue, but doesn't the funding for the entire leg include construction of the subway portion?

I wouldn't expect the 8th Ave subway to be built at the same time, rather, I think we're just pointing out that if there is going to be an 8th Ave subway in the very long term that they should plan out a major transfer hub at 2nd St and 8th Ave

Hard to call these two subways unnecessary if we're thinking very long term here as this city continues to grow over the next 50 years

[fusili]

Re: BRT to LRT conversion.

I have heard that only around 3% of the construction costs for the BRT would not be used for the LRT. Essentially, the BRT is almost like laying the ROW (tunnels, bridges, etc) and the support for the track, but not the track itself. So it is not a "build it twice, don't build it right" scenario.

As for the comments about the Ottawa BRT conversion, I don't want to assume, but my understanding is that in Calgary they will be able to route buses onto alternative roads (essentially the current route for the SE BRT) during construction. Trip times will definitely be impacted, but not in such a way that it will cause massive ridership erosion. The Transitway uses almost none of the roads as the current BRT, it is an entirely new right of way (using the CP rail line I believe)

[MalcolmTucker]

As long as the geometry is right, after you have the LRT garage and the substations, you should be able to convert the ROW in one construction season as long as you don't have to redo stations. I'm not sure how many years you have to leave a BRT before you convert to make the net benefits better than just doing the LRT later (in between the both). There would certainly be sunk costs to the BRT that could not be recovered.

[CorporateWhore]

Originally Posted by fusili

Re: BRT to LRT conversion.

I have heard that only around 3% of the construction costs for the BRT would not be used for the LRT. Essentially, the BRT is almost like laying the ROW (tunnels, bridges, etc) and the support for the track, but not the track itself. So it is not a "build it twice, don't build it right" scenario.

Good to know, thanks. Although I still kind of think we should just go ahead with the LRT and do it right off the bat, even if it takes some borrowing of money.

Again pardon my ignorance, but will the North portion be on the line of the future North Central LRT? Ie, the one that is supposed to go up Centre Street? Wouldn't that mean that they would have to start building a bunch of tunnels/elevated paths then there too? I'm not sure how they can build their own right-of-way path anywhere else, but I hope they don't compromise on the ideal route just because of this.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Riise

This is odd, usually you're the one saying we're being naive...

I have a diagram right in front of me of what the station grounds would look like with a ROW for the LRT and various other scenarios including HSR, commuter rail etc.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I have a diagram right in front of me of what the station grounds would look like with a ROW for the LRT and various other scenarios including HSR, commuter rail etc.

Maybe it is a part of one of those schemes that will be forgotten in a filing cabinet never to be looked at again except in a Saturday newspaper feature about historic proposals that never got off the ground.

[Policy Wonk]

This is the moment I would love to snap that it was related to high speed rail and you're absolutely right, but that would be a lie.

[MasterG]

So do we know how much of the Downtown infrastructure will be put in place for the BRT route? i.e. lanes / tunnels etc.? this seems to be a big question mark and will likely effect the overall travel time the most (or at least tied with the deerfoot / Bow River crossing section)

[fusili]

Originally Posted by CorporateWhore

Good to know, thanks. Although I still kind of think we should just go ahead with the LRT and do it right off the bat, even if it takes some borrowing of money.

Again pardon my ignorance, but will the North portion be on the line of the future North Central LRT? Ie, the one that is supposed to go up Centre Street? Wouldn't that mean that they would have to start building a bunch of tunnels/elevated paths then there too? I'm not sure how they can build their own right-of-way path anywhere else, but I hope they don't compromise on the ideal route just because of this.

This is the part I have no idea about. Perhaps they will do a transit reversal lane during rush hour on Centre street in the interim and just connect through downtown to the SE LRT ROW using existing roads. I really don't know what infrastructure they could build on the NC portion that would be used by both buses and the LRT, especially if it is grade separated. Unless they elevate the whole thing, who knows?

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by fusili

This is the part I have no idea about. Perhaps they will do a transit reversal lane during rush hour on Centre street in the interim and just connect through downtown to the SE LRT ROW using existing roads. I really don't know what infrastructure they could build on the NC portion that would be used by both buses and the LRT, especially if it is grade separated. Unless they elevate the whole thing, who knows?

I was thinking that the NC busway infrastructure probably wouldn't be reused for LRT, but that the bus infrastructura would be minimal adjustments to existing roadways so it wouldn't be much of a dollar loss.

[Offside_Ref]

What about implementing more curb side bus lanes on Centre St in the interim, then put the LRT in the two middle lanes when it's running at street level, then transfer the bus lanes back to regular traffic lanes? Assuming the LRT would be grade separated wherever Centre St can't be expanded to 6 lanes, the road wouldn't lose any traffic capacity.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by fusili

Re: BRT to LRT conversion.

I have heard that only around 3% of the construction costs for the BRT would not be used for the LRT. Essentially, the BRT is almost like laying the ROW (tunnels, bridges, etc) and the support for the track, but not the track itself. So it is not a "build it twice, don't build it right" scenario.

It's hard to say how much could potentially be reused for trains until we know more.

Creating bus lanes on Centre Street N, relocating traffic lanes, is a good way to use the money. Downtown, I can't imagine much they can do at all, AND because I don't think there is money for a tunnel into the Beltline, there is also no point of building a new bridge to Inglewood south of the CPR tracks (although the Atlantic Avenue Bridge was slated for a long-overdue upgrade even before the news this week). In fact, I'm afraid few if any upgrades to bus-only infrastructure will improve travel time between Inglewood and Glenmore over the 302. South of Glenmore, there is already a ROW, so NONE of the dollars (as far as I can see) spent there for BRT will be reusable for LRT. The same is true north of Beddington.

In other words, I think there is little that can be done downtown with this budget. Most money spent on parts of the route that already have ROW (south of Glenmore, North of Beddington) will NOT be reusable for LRT. Buying bridges and ROW between Inglewood and Glenmore can be reused for LRT, but will only improve travel time by a few minutes vs Ogden Rd.

Here is my conclusion: Spending $500 M on the setway will do almost nothing to improve travel times. There is hardly a single item on the setway route that can be (1) be bought on this budget, (2) significantly improve travel times vs 302, and (3) be reused for LRT. It's kind of frustrating.

Spending the money on Centre Street bus lanes between Downtown and Beddington makes sense, because it meets all 3 criteria i just underlined. In the SE, I think we'll get a pedestrian bridge between Inglewood and Ramsay, and a park and ride in Quarrey Park. I'm serious; I think that's all we should spend, and it won't take the whole $500M. Commit the rest to LRT infrastructure that will be entirely useless until we get another couple billion in funding.

[RyLucky]

Developers join chorus of support for new cross-city rapid transit link:

"a bus-only roadway from the south hospital to downtown and the north should be in place by 2018"

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/calgary/story.html?id=9230251

[RyLucky]

Here we go. Take a look at this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/gr...-excite-calgary-transit-riders-1.2444467 "The new transit line is expected to cost the city $764 million, but costs would escalate even more if the LRT conversion happens"

[Full Mountain]

After thinking about the SETWay, I highly doubt it will become more than a BRT within the next 20 years, the improvement from BRT to LRT incremental at best. Only once the roadway reaches capacity will it be upgraded. With the NC leg this will happen almost immediately given the current volume of transit users forcing the city to prioritize the NC LRT. I think the SETWay will make little difference in the commuting habits of SE Calgary, and the LRT on that route will be further delayed (as it should be) over the NC LRT.

I also think a large number of the buses on this route will end up short turning DT and heading north again rather than heading to the SE, given the current load imbalance between the 3/301 & the 302.

[mellbell416]

An article in defense of LRTs vs. metros. Wow, I hadn't realized that Rob Ford had such a vendetta against LRTs and wants to build subways instead - and he claims to be the guy who is going to save taxpayers money?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toro...-lrt/article15697736/#dashboard/follows/

[J-D]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

An article in defense of LRTs vs. metros. Wow, I hadn't realized that Rob Ford had such a vendetta against LRTs and wants to build subways instead - and he claims to be the guy who is going to save taxpayers money?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toro...-lrt/article15697736/#dashboard/follows/

LRT is fine... but it really should have a proper ROW. We're paying for this design decision every day. Obviously with the route our LRT takes, this does mean a subway for the downtown portion.

[WaitWhat?]

If 8th ave and 2nd street both get undergound lrt routes, I could see that corner becoming the busiest intersection in the city as far as pedestrian flow. It might become the unofficial "centre" of the city. I would love to see the podium portion of Scotia Centre taken out and replaced with a larger urban square, sort of like a smaller version of Dundas Square. We could keep access to the plus 15 and 30 from the underground stations to get to the Core shopping centre and what's left of Scotia Centre. Throw in street access to the stations with a variant of Foster's Bilbao Metro entrances.

I realize this is all unlikely but it is fun to dream...