Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Also, the goal isn't to reduce congestion, it is to allow significant growth in population and employment.

Exactly. Effective mass transit creates growth, in the long term it will not impact the number of vehicles on the road.

[J.OT13]

As phil pointed out, the Ottawa density used in this article is not at all representative of the true situation. A better comparison would be inside the greenbelt as mentioned, or the density of old Ottawa. DC has 3,977 ppl/sqkm on 177 sqkm. Now compare that to OLD Ottawa; around 320,000 on 109 sqkm for a density of 2,935 sqkm, probably more than DC's density at the time of the Metro's construction.

And the idea of putting tolls everywhere is not a magic solution to congestion. The bus system is already overcapacity downtown and practicly making everyone take transit would only make things much MUCH worse. We need rail based rapid transit for capacity reasons now and in the future.

And finally, comparing American lrt systems with ours is yet another major flaw. Other than NYC, no other transit system in the US comes close to the transit ridership of Canadian cities. If we're going to compare systems, Ottawa should be compared to Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver.

[DarkArconio]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

And finally, comparing American lrt systems with ours is yet another major flaw. Other than NYC, no other transit system in the US comes close to the transit ridership of Canadian cities. If we're going to compare systems, Ottawa should be compared to Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver.

Yup!

[JeffB]

He says that the only proven way to reduce congestion in cities is to install tolls.
“If you make everyone pay five dollars to get on the 417 during rush hour, people will spread out their trips,” he says.

Or they will use Carling, Wellington, and Baseline (plus other roads to the East) and make those roads even more congested.

[lrt's friend]

It is almost impossible to impose tolls on an existing 'free' road. Besides the practical issue of setting up the tolling infrastructure at every interchange, as JeffB points out, you will shift traffic onto other roads making a bad situation even worse.

Also, I would say that the Queensway handles more cross-town traffic than downtown bound traffic. Will we have an adequate alternative in the event of tolling? I say that the Confederation Line will not provide an adequate alternative to the Queensway. Trains will not operate at speeds of traffic on the Queensway when there are no issues on the Queensway and if your trip does not start or end along the Confederation Line, your trip time will be totally uncompetitive.

In other words, tolling on the Queensway will amount to a new tax, while making congestion on surrounding roads worse.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by DarkArconio

Yup!

Yes, you cannot compare Canada and the United States, however, are these expensive rail systems actually improving transit modal share? I think this question applies in both countries and for the most part, the answer is NO. Yes, we may increase ridership modestly, but transit modal share is still either flat or slowly declining in both Canada and the United States.

We are failing to properly assess what will bring people to transit. We make blind assumptions that expensive rail systems will bring people to transit but if we do not consider travel times before and after implementation, we are being foolish. Of course, it is also well known that parking costs and availability will affect transit useage. There are probably other considerations. We really need to do a better job of assessing the value of transit projects and what is truly effective.

[McC]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is almost impossible to impose tolls on an existing 'free' road. Besides the practical issue of setting up the tolling infrastructure at every interchange.

amazingly, this can all be done electronically now.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by McC

amazingly, this can all be done electronically now.

How expensive was that to install for Highway 407 (including the billing system) and how practical is it to install into an existing highway?

[McC]

If the Government of Ontario were to do it, it would require the incredibly impractical development of a ghastly expensive, made-to-measures solution that would then exceed the original budget by several factors. But there are lots of available systems, ranging from GPS transponders and E-ZPass / ETR systems like on the 407, to something as simple as license plate cameras with recognition software linked to the vehicle registry DB.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by McC

If the Government of Ontario were to do it, it would require the incredibly impractical development of a ghastly expensive, made-to-measures solution that would then exceed the original budget by several factors. But there are lots of available systems, ranging from GPS transponders and E-ZPass / ETR systems like on the 407, to something as simple as license plate cameras with recognition software linked to the vehicle registry DB.

True, but that made-to-measure solution would require vast amounts of Unicorn tears and Unobtanium Ore from the Kuiper Belt, so at least you know the government would be building a good system with good materials.

[McC]

The consultants assured me that the original proposals were sound: they would only need trace amounts of unobtanium for the central processor's reactor core; then I found out that the in-vehicle transponders also needed their own nano-sized versions, OR THEY COULDN'T INTERFACE! How could I refuse the increase in project scope to design the new tech? This is an investment in made-in-Ontario prosperity! And really, who could have foreseen that kind of inflation in Unicorn tear prices; wed built 300% in the original budget, that's just sound planning, folks; but the market just kept heading north once Metrolinx started using them to power the Scarborough-Oshawa-Peterborough subway.

[S-Man]

The consultants assured me that the original proposals were sound: they would only need trace amounts of unobtanium for the central processor's reactor core; then I found out that the in-vehicle transponders also needed their own nano-sized versions, OR THEY COULDN'T INTERFACE! How could I refuse the increase in project scope to design the new tech? This is an investment in made-in-Ontario prosperity! And really, who could have foreseen that kind of inflation in Unicorn tear prices; wed built 300% in the original budget, that's just sound planning, folks; but the market just kept heading north once Metrolinx started using them to power the Scarborough-Oshawa-Peterborough subway.

Too much truth here, borne out by history!

Don't give the 'revenue tools' at Queen's Park another opportunity to frig something up at no cost to them and mucho, mucho cost to us. Municipalities should be allowed to implement a system that works for their needs.

This condescending "Our way or no way...TRUST us" BS got old long ago.

Now, as for tolling - I'm against doing it on the Queensway for the reasons LRT's Friend stated. I was more in line with the idea for tolls at the edge of the city, like the 174 going to Rockland. This idea was shot down by Glen Moron Murray, but it makes more sense as it would mostly affect commuters who pay taxes in cheaper, outside-the-city jurisdictions, rather than people already paying for those roads through the million ways in which we do.

[1overcosc]

I would support ring tolls around the City of Ottawa's borders, but only if applied at ALL entry points. Even those coming on provincial highways are still using city roads once they're off the highway. Applying them only at the 174 would be discriminatory--Rocklanders have to pay for a shitty two lane road while people from Kemptville and Arnprior and Carleton Place get to drive on shiny new freeways for free? Not fair at all.

An example of how the city just shelled out megabucks for people living outside it was the resurfacing of Dalmeny Road last year. Almost all the traffic on that road is people driving between Embrun/Russell and Highway 416 at Kemptville--both points outside the city. Very few Ottawa-origin cars driving down that road, yet the city paid every penny of the hundreds of thousands of $ required to resurface it.

[J.OT13]

Toll truck tunnel, fine but I would not support any other tolls anywhere else. Ottawa would fail if tolls were to be imposed; business would not want to move here, people would not want to move here and current residents would avoid the central area at all costs (no pun intended). Furthermore, our traffic problems and transit ridership aren't so bad that they require such drastic measure. And of course, we don't have a proper transit system in place to justify such a radical idea. Keep building rapid transit and the traveling culture in our city will modify for the better as time passes.

To add to what I was saying, people outside Ottawa (excluding Gatineau) can only get to Ottawa by car and the idea of commuter rail is slowly dying a painful death while CP is ripping out all tracks, not to mention Rockland, our biggest suburb on the Ontario side, never had tracks (as far as I know).

[Aylmer]

I know, right? I've been to Stockholm, London, Milan, Singapore and Manhattan and man, those places are ghost towns.

Well, just in case we do want to forever condemn our city to ruin, here's what I'd propose:




The charge would be mostly symbolic - maybe $3 per trip at rush hours and $1 during the day. It would use cameras to identify license plates as they do in the aforementioned ruins of cities, so there's little infrastructure required and no slowing down.
Stockholm gives exemptions if you can prove that public transit would take more than 2h extra per day compared to driving.
Through-traffic on the Queensway could also be refunded by installing the cameras on the exits.

And though the Parliament, all the shops, offices and residences will be abandoned, we could expect travel times to be improved significantly (imagine Bank, Wellington or the Queensway where you could travel faster than a power-walker!) and extra revenue for the city (though not huge).

[lrt's friend]

To add to what I was saying, people outside Ottawa (excluding Gatineau) can only get to Ottawa by car and the idea of commuter rail is slowly dying a painful death while CP is ripping out all tracks, not to mention Rockland, our biggest suburb on the Ontario side, never had tracks (as far as I know).

CN had a rail line between Ottawa and Hawkesbury that ran through Rockland until 1939. It more or less followed the 174, which is why the road was built there. The railway bridge abutments can still be seen crossing Green's Creek just southeast of the Queensway interchange at Montreal Road. Rockland was also served by a north-south rail line that connected to today's Via Rail line. I believe that was abandoned in the 1920s.

[lrt's friend]

The charge would be mostly symbolic - maybe $3 per trip at rush hours and $1 during the day. It would use cameras to identify license plates as they do in the aforementioned ruins of cities, so there's little infrastructure required and no slowing down.

You could never bill at $1 or $3 and expect to break even. Highway 407 tolls are much much higher especially if you are mailing bills to drivers, which applies to everybody without a transponder.

Given where I live, with even a modest toll, I would avoid it like the plague. So I would be one of the ones clogging up alternative streets.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You could never bill at $1 or $3 and expect to break even. Highway 407 tolls are much much higher especially if you are mailing bills to drivers, which applies to everybody without a transponder.

Given where I live, with even a modest toll, I would avoid it like the plague. So I would be one of the ones clogging up alternative streets.

That's why it would be symbolic. It's meant to relieve congestion by internalising some of the costs associated with congestion and infrastructure.

And why it would be a zone, not a toll road, so no getting past it, as you can see on the map

[S-Man]

I know, right? I've been to Stockholm, London, Milan, Singapore and Manhattan and man, those places are ghost towns.

You know these cities are fabulously wealthy right?

If your idea was put in place in Ottawa, even more people would be fleeing to Alberta than at present. Tacking $120-$150 a month onto people's budgets for the privilege of accessing the centre of a city they already support through taxes, on roads they pay gas tax upon gas tax for?

Then, maybe also park for 25 cents every 6 minutes anywhere near downtown?

Only the rich would be left, as everyone who wasn't comfortably affluent would run west. Then we'd be just like Singapore and London and Hong Kong! Glory days!

[Aylmer]

Fabulously:

Median income:

London - $37 000
Stockholm - $63 348
Milan - $30 000
Singapore - $55 632
NYC: $50 895

Ottawa? $97 010

Simply faaabulous, darling!


The point of the exercise isn't to make money (there are much more politically winning and effective ways of doing that) - it's to internalise costs. That means that it could be accompanied by a slight reduction in property taxes to even things out.
My point is that Armageddon hasn't touched the cities which have instituted a congestion charge and that the advantages of better transit ridership and service, reduced economic cost of congestion, cleaner air and more space for people might outweigh the cons of a little internalising.