High Speed Rail in Canada

[Blader]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

France also has 10x (or more) the amount of rail corridors we are talking about building. There only needs to be one here, not ten or twenty.

France is a spider web where small towns feed minor hubs which feed major hubs which feed western Europe's major cities all of which have fantastic transit relative to Alberta. Feed is integral. Calgary/Edmonton/Red Deer have no feed of consequence at all. These 3 cities by themselves, do not have enough potential traffic to support one HSR without heavy government involvement which could prove to be suicidal.

[MalcolmTucker]

Studies show otherwise for demand and project profitability. They can't be totally wrong.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Set the ROW, secure land even... But ^^no HSR for another couple of decades.

I’ve seen a number of Edmontonians be not be very keen on this idea, and I’m not sure why. There were detailed studies as far back as 10 years ago that showed it was viable. Here’s another one from 5 years ago.
http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/3940.htm

A large amount of traffic goes back and forth between the two cities every day, and HSR would only improve the business links and make the whole Edmonton-Calgary Corridor more attractive to outside businesses as well, because the whole market would become more accessible. I don’t think there are any serious questions about the economic viability of such a proposal, but I do think there are some technical questions. There aren’t many true HSR lines as far north as we are. China opened one last year, but they’ve had trouble in cold weather and have had to reduce speeds to 200km/h in the winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin%E2%80%93Dalian_High-Speed_Railway

There have been offers from private companies to build, own, and operate this line but it hasn’t gone ahead, and I’m guessing that the government isn’t sure that the technology is there yet. I’m sure they want the right project built and not one that’s going to be plagued with problems. My guess is that we wait a few years until the Chinese get their problems worked out, and then maybe they’d be the leading candidates to bring that technology over here.

I’d like to see this be a 350-400 km/h train, which I think would reduce travel time from city centre to city centre to 1 hour or less, and in a perfect world I’d like to see it elevated, but obviously that would be very expensive. In some important ways I think this kind of connection between the two cites would effectively make the ECC one metropolitan area of over 3 million people, and i think that would have many benefits for the whole region.

[Razor]

^ no Allan, a HSR line will not effectively transform Edmonton and Calgary into one Metro area..It will increase connectivity to those two cities sure.
But it takes more than a HSR line to blend cities into one metro..Having said that, I hope these two cities do get a line..It would be great. Because of our climate, I just don't know if uber high speeds of 300-350 kmh can be achieved here, but I could be wrong. Like you stated though..The ones in China just reduced their speeds to 200 kmh in the winter which still isn't too shabby.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Razor

^ no Allan, a HSR line will not instantaneously transform Edmonton and Calgary into one Metro area..It will increase connectivity to those two cities sure. Having said that, I hope these two cities do get a line..It would be great

Saying that "in some important ways this kind of connection between the two cites would effectively make the ECC one metropolitan area" not even close to saying that it would "instantaneously transform Edmonton and Calgary into one Metro area".

[Razor]

ya I edited my wording out, because I thought you used the word "instantaneously" at first .You jumped on it before I finished editing I guess.You got my gist..even "effectively" is a bit of a stretch...Now, the fastest train only tops out at 300 kmh, so 350 kmh is pushing it a bit..I still say having trains in Canada hitting above the 200 kmh mark would be a remarkable step forward in this country

[Allan83]

I think 1 hour is kind of a magic number, but with a 300 km/h train I think would be close to 75 minutes including stops (the exact number is in one of the documents I linked to but I can’t remember where), which isn’t too bad either. If you can get from downtown Edmonton to downtown Calgary in 75 minutes, or likewise ship a small high value product between the two cities, then the two markets can effectively become one. Or, a company could set up in Red Deer and be 40 minutes from the city centre of both cities.

Here’s the 2004 study that concluded that “sufficient demand exists today to support a high speed rail service offering about two hours or less travel time between Calgary and Edmonton.”
http://www.vanhorne.info/files/vanhorne/HSRFullReport(1062004).pdf

So the question is, why hasn’t it been built yet, and my guess is that there are still some concerns about the technology.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Studies show otherwise for demand and project profitability. They can't be totally wrong.

I hope you guys just go for it it.

I'm so tired of Canada's prevailing, "No we can't!" attitude. And it just gets even worse when we talk about regions other than our own. A HSR link between Calgary and Edmonton makes perfect sense. And maybe it'll wake up people in southern Ontario and Quebec, possibly even New Brunswick.

We can do whatever we can afford and will work. Period.

Beyond that, it's just the crazies and naysayers. Talking about one proposal in St. John's, one woman opposed it because our economic boom is going to end someday.

🞵🞵🞵? So she basically suggested our urban planning and development should be based on turning St. John's into a ghost town? Don't build anything that the city as it exists today will not need if it dies? Wonderful.

Canada has a self-esteem problem, I think. And the reasons for it are different in each region... but it is something we share in common.

[TownGuy]

I agree and it's a terrible trait. Really when you think about our combination of resources and proximity to the US we should be a bigger powerhouse than we are. The lack of will to do something like HSR is what holds this country back. Maybe the problem is we've just had it so easy we lack the balls to go out do something risky. Started with the east coast fishery, Ontario became a powerhouse basically because US manufactures decided to setup shop here, we didn't really work for it or develop or own manufacturers...Alberta had complete dumb luck with the oil sands. Sure it's taken a lot of effort to turn that into something but it basically fell on their laps.

If we were true innovators we could combine that with our resources and truly become something special...but no. HSR is just a microcosmic of that.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I think 1 hour is kind of a magic number, but with a 300 km/h train I think would be close to 75 minutes including stops (the exact number is in one of the documents I linked to but I can’t remember where), which isn’t too bad either. If you can get from downtown Edmonton to downtown Calgary in 75 minutes, or likewise ship a small high value product between the two cities, then the two markets can effectively become one. Or, a company could set up in Red Deer and be 40 minutes from the city centre of both cities.

Here’s the 2004 study that concluded that “sufficient demand exists today to support a high speed rail service offering about two hours or less travel time between Calgary and Edmonton.”
http://www.vanhorne.info/files/vanhorne/HSRFullReport(1062004).pdf

So the question is, why hasn’t it been built yet, and my guess is that there are still some concerns about the technology.

Agree that core to core travel in under an hour is the key metric for a Calgary - Edmonton link. I do also think it could have some interesting effects on the office space market in both cities, as the cores would be almost 'virtualized' together' with a trip that quick.

A slower train that doesn't provide a faster, cheaper trip than flying just isn't worth doing. Freeing up runway slots at both airports from those short flights is one of the best ancillary benefits to an AB HSR line IMO, and if the train takes even 2 hours, there will still be many that will take a 'faster' flight.

Technology is key, as mentioned the steel wheels HSR tech doesn't do great in winter conditions, so it would need to be something current and pricey, ie maglev similar to what Japan is building between Tokyo and Osaka. $$$$$

Or it could be a great first build of something like hyperloop. Definitely riskier, and may take longer to build with development time, but would definitely be cheaper. Could be almost free for AB if Musk wanted a smaller project than California to prove the tech...

[Blader]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Studies show otherwise for demand and project profitability. They can't be totally wrong.

I'm currently reading a number of large studies, and that will take time to digest. My damning was too strident.
That said, has the Province acquired land for the Calgary/Edmonton downtown terminals? I thought there was a Calgary announcement a while back.

[Coldrsx]

Edmonton's new royal Alberta museum is to have a HSR terminal on the NE corner of it eventually.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Edmonton's new royal Alberta museum is to have a HSR terminal on the NE corner of it eventually.

Still don't get that move... or the idea that a HSR route should circle around the east of the city to get DT instead of taking the central HLB route.

Why take advantage of a river valley view when entering DT when you could greet travelers with refinery row??

[White Pine]

Took a quick look at google maps, the RAM isn't where I'd put the central train station. i would hope though, if they do put it there, that they'll have the sense to put an LRT stop there when it comes through.

[Coldrsx]

LRT is across the street and will be connected via pedway likely.

[Razor]

Look, I'm keeping it real here..I'm totally in for HSR for both the ECC as well as the second proposed line for Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto.
The cost for admission would not make it feasible for businesses or travellers to regularly use it and lean on it as if you were taking some sort of city bus every day.
Purulator and other courier services would still be the way to go, because it is cost effective. Now, Joe business traveller from Calgary who makes weekly trips to Edmonton may certainly use it, but he is currently flying, driving or taking the regular train anyways...People sending a parcel which needs to be arrive A.S.A.P may use it, so I just don't see some sort of uber connectivity because although it would be a great and efficient service, I just can't see it replacing the status quo fully..It will just enhance the existing services..Even with a HSR connecting Ottawa to Montreal for instance, I for one would maybe go on it for novelty, but Montreal is less than 2.0 hours away by car anyways (just over a buck and a half on good days),so just to go there to spend a Saturday wouldn't warrant taking some sort of HSR every time...I'm not saying it wouldn't increase connectivity to any of these cities, because it certainly would..I just can't see it fully taking over because of the fares. I mean jets didn't effectively make 2 cities one metro..Some people have this romantic notion that you can live in Calgary, but take the train into Edmonton everyday to work..HSR would make it possible yes, but unless you are loaded with cash and are absolutely tied to where you live, most people would simply move closer to where you work. What I can see though is a train full of Leaf fans using it to trek up to Montreal for a game, and then coming back the same night..Same with EC, and Ottawa/Montreal..Ottawa/Toronto..This I could see..It would take a lot more than a high speed train line to integrate 2 metros into one.

[technomad]

That's why speed is the critical metric here, and worth holding out for.

I can see any sub-hour train commute being a viable option. Especially with the more seamless nature of train vs. plane. An hour at the beginning and end of each day could be used as work time for emails, etc. in many jobs.

For regular commuters, I can see there being good discounts on a monthly pass, comparable price to a parking stall in downtown Calgary would probably work, and could be very appealing if it was given the same tax credit status as monthly transit passes.

Originally Posted by Razor

Look, I'm keeping it real here..I'm totally in for HSR for both the ECC as well as the second proposed line for Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto.
The cost for admission would not make it feasible for businesses or travellers to regularly use it and lean on it as if you were taking some sort of city bus every day.
Purulator and other courier services would still be the way to go, because it is cost effective. Now, Joe business traveller from Calgary who makes weekly trips to Edmonton may certainly use it, but he is currently flying, driving or taking the regular train anyways...People sending a parcel which needs to be arrive A.S.A.P may use it, so I just don't see some sort of uber connectivity because although it would be a great and efficient service, I just can't see it replacing the status quo fully..It will just enhance the existing services..Even with a HSR connecting Ottawa to Montreal for instance, I for one would maybe go on it for novelty, but Montreal is less than 2.0 hours away by car anyways (just over a buck and a half on good days),so just to go there to spend a Saturday wouldn't warrant taking some sort of HSR every time...I'm not saying it wouldn't increase connectivity to any of these cities, because it certainly would..I just can't see it fully taking over because of the fares. I mean jets didn't effectively make 2 cities one metro..Some people have this romantic notion that you can live in Calgary, but take the train into Edmonton everyday to work..HSR would make it possible yes, but unless you are loaded with cash and are absolutely tied to where you live, most people would simply move closer to where you work. What I can see though is a train full of Leaf fans using it to trek up to Montreal for a game, and then coming back the same night..Same with EC, and Ottawa/Montreal..Ottawa/Toronto..This I could see..It would take a lot more than a high speed train line to integrate 2 metros into one.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Razor

Look, I'm keeping it real here..I'm totally in for HSR for both the ECC as well as the second proposed line for Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto.

In general I agree with this; however the Tōkaidō Shinkansen line is very heavily used by commuters between 100km and 200km away from Tokyo.

With Calgary parking prices at $550/month it isn't hard to imagine a $800/month pass for HSR to downtown would capture a large portion of the Red Deer commuter base. $800/month is inline with what Japanese commuters pay.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by rbt

In general I agree with this; however the Tōkaidō Shinkansen line is very heavily used by commuters between 100km and 200km away from Tokyo.

With Calgary parking prices at $550/month it isn't hard to imagine a $800/month pass for HSR to downtown would capture a large portion of the Red Deer commuter base. $800/month is inline with what Japanese commuters pay.

The Key is your comparing one of the most heavily populated areas in the world..Tokyo..The ECC is roughly 2.5 million people to draw from..I couldn't see a regular train load of people living in Montreal but working in Ottawa either and that corridor has more than 2.5 times the population and is 100km closer than E-C. Sure there would definitely be some regular commuters, but a few trains full twice everyday? To make it feasible, we are not talking just a few rail road cars full either.
Again, I'm in favour of HSLR, but I just don't see enough people fully leaning on it enough to want to live in any one of Canada's major cities and work in another..It would certainly be successful though..Just not as a pure commuting train between major Canadian cities. I think it will steal from the airlines, and serve as what I already stated in my last post. Tokyo is a different animal..Just look at the real estate prices there. The train will be full everyday sure...Just not by regular commuters save for maybe the GTA where people are regularly taking Go Trains from Oshawa for instance.

[Nouvellecosse]

They wouldn't all need to be daily commuters though. If each train has just a few carriages of commuters, that could supplement the rest of the passenger load that could be made up of day-trippers or tourists or occasional business commuters. a couple of carriages per train could be enough to determine whether or not it has enough traffic to be feasible.