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  #6021  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 2:11 PM
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High-speed rail from Fort Collins to Springs would cost $9.8 billion

Planners said any rail corridor would have to avoid cutting through the city of Denver to scale back costs.
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_24559276/high-speed-rail-from-fort-collins-springs-would

Wooooo yes it's coming! And it makes perfect sense to take a rail system around Denver. Think about all the problems that solves! No more debate about Union Station as a through station - we can build one of those out at the aerotropolis where intercity rail belongs. Cynics might say forcing people to connect an extra half hour into Denver defeats the purpose, but not me, I think this is a great idea.
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  #6022  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 4:07 PM
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You're right it's wonderful... in fact let's just skip every city because building transit in cities is so hurty and hard... instead of FT Collins it can start in Wray, then Limon, then Elbert, then Fowler, Pueblo West, San Isabel, Aguilar, Trinidad (obviously the hub of the entire system) and finally to connect it to Albuquerque it can terminate in Las Vegas (NM).

Instead of spending a little more we can then insure that we waste every single dollar we spend!! Obviously the big GOP conspiracy of putting morons in charge of every project to prove to every voter that Government is completely inept at solving problems is working perfectly!
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  #6023  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by brainpathology View Post
you're right it's wonderful... In fact let's just skip every city because building transit in cities is so hurty and hard... Instead of ft collins it can start in wray, then limon, then elbert, then fowler, pueblo west, san isabel, aguilar, trinidad, pueblo (obviously the hub of the entire system) and finally to connect it to albuquerque it can terminate in las vegas (nm).

Instead of spending a little more we can then insure that we waste every single dollar we spend!! Obviously the big gop conspiracy of putting morons in charge of every project to prove to every voter that government is completely inept at solving problems is working perfectly!


ftfy
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  #6024  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 4:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Brainpathology View Post
You're right it's wonderful... in fact let's just skip every city because building transit in cities is so hurty and hard... instead of FT Collins it can start in Wray, then Limon, then Elbert, then Fowler, Pueblo West, San Isabel, Aguilar, Trinidad (obviously the hub of the entire system) and finally to connect it to Albuquerque it can terminate in Las Vegas (NM).

Instead of spending a little more we can then insure that we waste every single dollar we spend!! Obviously the big GOP conspiracy of putting morons in charge of every project to prove to every voter that Government is completely inept at solving problems is working perfectly!
Indeed.

This reveals some of the hidden costs of how the old downtown rail yards were divided up to get maximum street frontage at the expense of cheap through heavy rail traffic at DUS (thanks to....)

And, the costs for not making DUS a through station keep piling up....

Of course, the through Denver option has its problems, too.

A) Even if coal trains are shunted east vial some 250 to 300 miles of new tracks between Fort Morgan and Las Animas, in addition to line rehabilitation, local traffic will generate some 10 to 15 trains on the line between north Denver and Pueblo per day.

B) Some of Colorado Springs brighter movers and shakers had portions of the 2nd track on the Denver to Pueblo land in El Paso county ripped up in the 1970s.

Yet, IMO, the moving the rail traffic east and developing exiting right of way is the cheapest solution.

Rather than making new HSR at $100 million or more per mile per track, making the Corridor a 110 mph electrified corridor with shared freight and passenger service makes more sense (run the freight trains in groups of 5 or so at a time, each way) Provided tonnage limitations per train (no coal or tanker trains- maybe up to 20 cars or so per train), and, pull the trains from Denver to Pueblo (or the Springs) via electric locomotive, which are far quieter. Triple track the Corridor in 10 to 20 mile stretches.

Cost? $3 billion or so in current dollars for the higher speed rail and $1 billion for the new lines built out east on the prairie.

Interface the south lines, the DIA lines, the North Metro lines, and, a future Greeley line somewhere around the Stockyards in a Big station.

Of course this will not be done, because, as most of us are starting to realize, we live in an era where the biggest property plays are subsidized with taxpayer money, and, the more money the tax payers kick into the kettle, the more stew for the moneyed few.
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  #6025  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 4:41 PM
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The sad part is they pretty much are bypassing every city but COS and Pueblo. So the Trinidad hub scenario isn't really that hyperbolic relative to what they are actually proposing.

I don't get where they are getting the ridership projections nor do I really want to out of fear it will make my head explode. Hopefully CDOT will let this one die and then will focus on a realistic rail proposal for the front range.
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  #6026  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 5:03 PM
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this is a joke, right?
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  #6027  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Indeed.

This reveals some of the hidden costs of how the old downtown rail yards were divided up to get maximum street frontage at the expense of cheap through heavy rail traffic at DUS (thanks to....)

And, the costs for not making DUS a through station keep piling up....
Oh, I don't think that it's the cost at Union Station that's the problem, despite your unhealthy fixation, it's what occurs south of Union Station that really drives up the cost of this worthless high-speed rail study.

Though it does ensure another series of pointless studies that keep the "powerless optimists who see what ends up being done as being mediocre" employed. Or at least keeps their lives fulfilled in a twisted fashion.
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  #6028  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 5:58 PM
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Thanks to Ryan Mulligan's inside tour, I'm a bit concerned about the coverings under the canopy. Given how soon this project is going to be complete, I have this fear it's going to be open air on the Fastracks platforms and Amatrak will be the only covered one:

via Ryan Mulligan on DenverUrbanism



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  #6029  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 6:04 PM
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I tried to warn you people.

But still, it's very weird to have those canopy structures without anything on them. I'm just confused.
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  #6030  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
I tried to warn you people.

But still, it's very weird to have those canopy structures without anything on them. I'm just confused.
Well, when we keep on getting reassurances from knowledgeable sources that RTD wouldn't do anything so asinine.... as to NOT cover a train platform.
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  #6031  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Well, when we keep on getting reassurances from knowledgeable sources that RTD wouldn't do anything so asinine.... as to NOT cover a train platform.
Let's hope they are slow and will be added later.
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  #6032  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Oh, I don't think that it's the cost at Union Station that's the problem, despite your unhealthy fixation, it's what occurs south of Union Station that really drives up the cost of this worthless high-speed rail study.

Though it does ensure another series of pointless studies that keep the "powerless optimists who see what ends up being done as being mediocre" employed. Or at least keeps their lives fulfilled in a twisted fashion.
Up into the 1960s, the Sante Fe and the CB&Q (the Burlington part of BNSF) ran trains into DUS from the south. From Castle Rock north, the ride was fast as there was no grade to speak of*.

The partition of the rail yards by Mr. A and others ended the possibility. Even Snyderbock pointed out that the Pepsi Center is what blocked the south bound tracks that had been planned for in the original purchase of DUS by RTD (the triangular property immediately southwest of the snub tracks at DUS was for tracks to switch into a two lane main line along what is now Chopper Cir and Wewatta St.

This property play ended the economical possibility of using heavy rail commuter type trains along the Joint line to Castle Rock that could enter DUS without first going east and flipping some kind of a U turn. In addition, even if this option were used*, traffic bogs down on the highly convoluted Joint line segment from Colfax to 20th, that occurred as the result of Mr. A's preparation for his Pepsi Center play.

Combine this property play with widening I-25 with the new triangular building to be built between Wewatta and 16th Street, and the potential for direct elevated and subway access into DUS from the south has been destroyed.

This reality is why a few forlorn idealists tried to stop the Lodo DUS juggernaut. They were not stupid, just powerless.

This must not be forgotten because the odds are very high within the next twenty years that a combination of population growth and reduced standard of living will FORCE large scale public transportation access from the south (we have no idea what a world of 9 billion people will do to metro Denver but a little forward planning would NOT be a bad idea, eh?***)

Now, despite this mess- from an efficiency standpoint, it is still cheaper to move most of the rail traffic to the east and improve the Joint line than it is to build passenger lines from the south, than enter DUS from the east.

(I have no doubt that a little Chinese style urban renewal will occur downtown or the next 20 years because of this.)

*Even today, if you cleared freight trains from one of the two to three lines temporarily a 25 minute non-stop travel times from Castle Rock to the Colfax Viaduct at 79 mph is feasible.

**More development will likely render even this option impossible.

***Doesn't CDOTs study talk about 8 million people in Colorado by 2035? (maybe 50% of the growth between Denver and Ft Collins) Denver CMSA of 5 million, maybe?
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Nov 20, 2013 at 8:01 PM.
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  #6033  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_24559276/high-speed-rail-from-fort-collins-springs-would

Wooooo yes it's coming! And it makes perfect sense to take a rail system around Denver. Think about all the problems that solves! No more debate about Union Station as a through station - we can build one of those out at the aerotropolis where intercity rail belongs. Cynics might say forcing people to connect an extra half hour into Denver defeats the purpose, but not me, I think this is a great idea.
Despite my being as powerless as a gnat on an elephant (I ain't goin to affect nothin), I STRONGLY RECOMMEND:

THAT THE NORTH WEST LINE BE SET UP FOR THE EVENTUAL HSR TO ENTER DOWNTOWN!

What does that mean?

A) Double track now

B) Set up clearances for triple track, particular at stations

C) Reduce road crossings to a minimum.

D) Start getting the old UP right-of-way which continues north of 162nd Ave, through Erie, Dacono and Firestone. From there, go north-north west across Colorado Blvd and get close to I-25.

AT LEAST GET A WIDE ENOUGHT ROW TO HAVE 2 TRACK MAIN AND 3 TRACK STATIONS.

Take a look at this video of Amtrak Acela- granted an old school higher speed train to get both the triple track feel and the speeds we are talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWf-ipNl5fQ
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

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  #6034  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
The partition of the rail yards by Mr. A and others ended the possibility. Even Snyderbock pointed out that the Pepsi Center is what blocked the south bound tracks that had been planned for in the original purchase of DUS by RTD (the triangular property immediately southwest of the snub tracks at DUS was for tracks to switch into a two lane main line along what is now Chopper Cir and Wewatta St.
Not the Pepsi Center/DUS/Anschutz conspiracy again. In the 1980's they tore down the Larimer Viaduct, and the 13th/14th Street Viaduct. They were replaced by Speer and Auraria over a decade before RTD bought DUS.

There is not and never has been any vast conspiracy. The timing of events does not even make sense, because Anschutz didn't own Southern Pacific -purchased August of 1988- when planning of the replacement, and demolition of the aforementioned viaducts began. Much more plausible is the viaducts were on their last leg, the additional rail connections were not needed anymore, and the viaducts were replaced with shorter less expensive spans. The shorter viaducts effectively blocked the rail where Chopper Cir/Wewatta are now, as well as the southbound exit from the Southern Pacific railyard about where the Conoco is now on Auraria parkway.
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  #6035  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Up into the 1960s, the Sante Fe and the CB&Q (the Burlington part of BNSF) ran trains into DUS from the south. From Castle Rock north, the ride was fast as there was no grade to speak of*.

The partition of the rail yards by Mr. A and others ended the possibility. Even Snyderbock pointed out that the Pepsi Center is what blocked the south bound tracks that had been planned for in the original purchase of DUS by RTD (the triangular property immediately southwest of the snub tracks at DUS was for tracks to switch into a two lane main line along what is now Chopper Cir and Wewatta St.

This property play ended the economical possibility of using heavy rail commuter type trains along the Joint line to Castle Rock that could enter DUS without first going east and flipping some kind of a U turn. In addition, even if this option were used*, traffic bogs down on the highly convoluted Joint line segment from Colfax to 20th, that occurred as the result of Mr. A's preparation for his Pepsi Center play.

Combine this property play with widening I-25 with the new triangular building to be built between Wewatta and 16th Street, and the potential for direct elevated and subway access into DUS from the south has been destroyed.

This reality is why a few forlorn idealists tried to stop the Lodo DUS juggernaut. They were not stupid, just powerless.

This must not be forgotten because the odds are very high within the next twenty years that a combination of population growth and reduced standard of living will FORCE large scale public transportation access from the south (we have no idea what a world of 9 billion people will do to metro Denver but a little forward planning would NOT be a bad idea, eh?***)

Now, despite this mess- from an efficiency standpoint, it is still cheaper to move most of the rail traffic to the east and improve the Joint line than it is to build passenger lines from the south, than enter DUS from the east.

(I have no doubt that a little Chinese style urban renewal will occur downtown or the next 20 years because of this.)

*Even today, if you cleared freight trains from one of the two to three lines temporarily a 25 minute non-stop travel times from Castle Rock to the Colfax Viaduct at 79 mph is feasible.

**More development will likely render even this option impossible.

***Doesn't CDOTs study talk about 8 million people in Colorado by 2035? (maybe 50% of the growth between Denver and Ft Collins) Denver CMSA of 5 million, maybe?
All this conspiracy stuff disguises an optimism you must have in human intelligence and planning that would make Eyeore proud. Stupidity, however infuriating, is not the same as a conspiracy. Although sometimes you have to believe that people are planning to look like morons (covering the platforms at USish? It DOES seem like you have to be intentionally undermining the project with that train room but really?, I really just think they are well meaning dolts. Not conspiracy hatching transit killers), making a long sweeping curve right up the path across the park (making a muddy path that cuts across the curve inevitable - with the comical "please stay on the path nonsense." A 4 year-old could have told the landscape architect that was going to happen. But was he/she intentionally conspiring to make the park look ugly in that area? I doubt it. You could probably find 100s of similar examples all over Denver and every other city.

I haven't met many people that are capable of putting matching socks on let alone plan long range moves that undermine the work of RTD/whatever transit agency you want to pick. The smartest people who want to make RTD or any transit agency look bad just have to sit back and watch them.
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  #6036  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 8:53 PM
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So the question is, is it really worth spending $9.8b on a rail system that does not hit the major population centers in the state and that does not have an alignment to maximize ridership?
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  #6037  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 8:59 PM
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or, is it "force Denver to cough up a ton to get a station downtown"...
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  #6038  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by EngiNerd View Post
So the question is, is it really worth spending $9.8b on a rail system that does not hit the major population centers in the state and that does not have an alignment to maximize ridership?
I'd rather not have it at all until all parties involved realize we have to PAY and pay dearly for restoring viable rail transit at the level of technology that first world countries like Tibet and Romania have now.
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  #6039  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 9:26 PM
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or, is it "force Denver to cough up a ton to get a station downtown"...
I think this is a great idea to held feed the aerotropolis, personally. You have to focus on the opportunities here, not just the costs. Denver already has downtown rail connections, and it's time that we bring more people, like Aurora and northeast Denver, into the fold. It's not about one vs. the other - it's about a collective spirit of regionalism!
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  #6040  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2013, 10:48 PM
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I want to punch you right now. At least in the hope that it'll snap this bizarro Bunt (I'd like to call him "Buzz" a la Chaz from Charles In Charge) personality right out of you.
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