Calgary Public Transit II

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Was thinking of how the LRT system can look like in the long term future, and thought up a LRT loop route west of the city to connect all the major HUBs together.

This route would serve to link U of C, Foothills Hospital (indirectly), MRU, Rockeyview Hospital, potential Tsuu T'ina Commercial District, Westhills, and the Children's Hospital. As well Market Mall indirectly would be served in a indirect fashion.

This loop could be linked to other LRT lines such as a N-S LRT along Shaganappi/Sarcee Trail and the SWRR. So it wouldn't be a isolated line with no intersection with others.

Again, this is something that's 20-30 years in the future when the areas are more dense. I figure making this route a LRT would be justifiable though since the areas this loop would serve would service a lot of people in both residence and employment.

As a taxpayer of the City of Calgary, I'm not sure I could support the millions and millions of dollars it would take to run the train through Tsuu T'ina that much - especially since 95% of that land would be open fields with no passengers to move. Is the band kicking in $500 million for their portion and stations?

Originally Posted by Joborule

I figure making this route a LRT would be justifiable though since the areas this loop would serve would service a lot of people in both residence and employment.

I'd like to think the ring road is the last thing we need to go to Tsuu T'ina for to acquire ROW.

[sim]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Was thinking of how the LRT system can look like in the long term future, and thought up a LRT loop route west of the city to connect all the major HUBs together.


CTWestHUB by Joborule, on Flickr

This route would serve to link U of C, Foothills Hospital (indirectly), MRU, Rockeyview Hospital, potential Tsuu T'ina Commercial District, Westhills, and the Children's Hospital. As well Market Mall indirectly would be served in a indirect fashion.

This loop could be linked to other LRT lines such as a N-S LRT along Shaganappi/Sarcee Trail and the SWRR. So it wouldn't be a isolated line with no intersection with others.

Again, this is something that's 20-30 years in the future when the areas are more dense. I figure making this route a LRT would be justifiable though since the areas this loop would serve would service a lot of people in both residence and employment.

I mean nothing personal with this but to be blunt this is a terrible visionary alignment/routing. If you lobbed off the western portion it might at least be worth pondering, but as is...

Firstly, circle lines require clockwork-like operations. They require that the cycle time is an integer multiple of the headway, with little room for schedule recovery time: Essentially, if a delay occurs somewhere along the route for a given transit unit, riders would be made to simply sit there at one point in their journey (as there is no terminal). With any notable (useful) frequency, delays would quickly progagate down the line and since it's a circle...

To acheive such succint and reliable operation you'd have to preclude any surface crossings with other modes, requiring much grade separation. But to boot, this proposed circle line poises a massively ineffective per track km potential ridership. Even if an origin - destination were to coincide with some of the stations along the circle anywhere in the more central portions of its eastern or western legs, not one person would use the route to make that journey. A bus would do just fine for that. i.e. I'm not gonna embark at a station say around Sarcee and 17th interchange to alight at a destination at around 17th and Crowchild . Same goes for down by Glenmore, etc. in respect to how you have your circle route shown.

Finally, circle lines most optimally go around a city center connecting other higher density nodes and allowing for more suburb to suburb (tangential) trips while augmenting radial lines - for more convenient connections.

Your proposal has essentially all of the operational disadvantages a circle line poses with none of the functional advantages. Sorry for sounding harsh, but that line would be a massive failure.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by sim

I mean nothing personal with this but to be blunt this is a terrible visionary alignment/routing. If you lobbed off the western portion it might at least be worth pondering, but as is...

Firstly, circle lines require clockwork-like operations. They require that the cycle time is an integer multiple of the headway, with little room for schedule recovery time: Essentially, if a delay occurs somewhere along the route for a given transit unit, riders would be made to simply sit there at one point in their journey (as there is no terminal). With any notable (useful) frequency, delays would quickly progagate down the line and since it's a circle...

To acheive such succint and reliable operation you'd have to preclude any surface crossings with other modes, requiring much grade separation. But to boot, this proposed circle line poises a massively ineffective per track km potential ridership. Even if an origin - destination were to coincide with some of the stations along the circle anywhere in the more central portions of its eastern or western legs, not one person would use the route to make that journey. A bus would do just fine for that. i.e. I'm not gonna embark at a station say around Sarcee and 17th interchange to alight at a destination at around 17th and Crowchild . Same goes for down by Glenmore, etc. in respect to how you have your circle route shown.

Finally, circle lines most optimally go around a city center connecting other higher density nodes and allowing for more suburb to suburb (tangential) trips while augmenting radial lines - for more convenient connections.

Your proposal has essentially all of the operational disadvantages a circle line poses with none of the functional advantages. Sorry for sounding harsh, but that line would be a massive failure.

What he said.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by sim

Your proposal has essentially all of the operational disadvantages a circle line poses with none of the functional advantages. Sorry for sounding harsh, but that line would be a massive failure.

No worries, it was something that was quickly thought up and wasn't given much thought for practicality to work as a small loop. It mostly steamed from the idea of a N-S line for the western portion of the city and a circle route via Crowchild, 16th Ave N, 52nd Street E, and Glenmore. I think both of those were something similar drawn up in beltliners transit vision blog he did a few years back.

[outoftheice]

Just wanted to provide an update on our advocacy project for fast tracking the construction of the South East and North Central LRT by using alternative funding. Our website has now been updated to reflect the latest information in the revised edition of our 'Paying Our Own Way' report (which can be found here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8rBz38rfXdNYWk0LWVRQjhTbU0/edit?usp=sharing)

We have also launched our #councilchallenge. Over the coming months we will be out in the community and engaging people via Twitter (@smartercityca) trying to gain support for the idea. While opinions on the need for alternative LRT funding vary, our hope is that people will recognize the need for Calgary to have this conversation and have this conversation now. As always, any feedback from forum members is always appreciated as our project is continuously evolving as we work towards getting construction started over the next few decades. More information can be found on our http://www.smartercity.ca website. The challenge:

One Question… $1 Million…
One Chance to Change the Face of Calgary.

Our #CouncilChallenge…

We are inviting people to join with us in asking that members of Calgary’s new City Council commit to work together and make it a collective goal to complete our challenge by the end of their four year term.
Our challenge is that Councillors commit to:
Work towards having construction started on the North Central and South East LRT by the end of their current term by committing to the following 4 principles:

Commit to Unite The People:

• Current transit funding discussions have focused on projects that would limit funding to one region of the city for the sake of another. We ask for a commitment to view the North Central and South East LRT as one project that should be funded and built in unison. This will create a project that will bring immediate and direct benefits to an estimated 270,000 Calgarians living in communities spanning the entire city instead of focusing on only one region. It will also create a project scale large enough to indirectly benefit every Calgarian.

Commit to Give The People a Clear Choice:

• Traditional funding methods will not be enough to fund construction of either the North Central or South East LRT for decades to come. In the meantime, more people continue to move to the city and traffic congestion continues to get worse. We ask for an acknowledgement that alternative funding is the best way to see the LRT lines built within the next decade. We ask for a commitment to provide Calgarians with an accurate picture of what the status quo means for LRT construction and recognition that making the choice to support alternative funding is the only realistic way to move the construction timeline forward.

• Over the previous term, alternative funding measures were proposed by Smartercity.ca, for a fuel and transit fare surcharge, as well by Transformation Calgary, for a 1% sales tax to fund civic improvement projects. We ask for a commitment to commission an accelerated study that will evaluate both funding proposals and choose the best option to be put forward as the alternative method of choice to fund the immediate construction of the North Central and South East LRT.

Commit to Ask The People:

• A plebiscite has been shown to be the most cost effective way to receive a proper measure of Calgarians’ sentiments. It is also the best way forward to provide various levels of government with a clear mandate during negotiations regarding a specific project. We ask for a commitment to provide the people of Calgary with a clear and concise plebiscite question to allow them to choose between alternative funding for immediate LRT construction and continuing with the status quo.

“Do you support the use of <the alternative funding measure> to be used exclusively for the immediate construction of the North Central LRT to North Pointe and the South East LRT to Douglas Glen?”

Commit to Act For The People:


• If a positive plebiscite result is achieved, we ask for a commitment to use the mandate to negotiate with the various levels of Government to enact the alternative funding program.

• We ask for a commitment to move public consultations as well as construction tendering along expeditiously so that construction can begin before the end of the current Council’s term and the people of Calgary can begin to see an immediate return on their investment.

[RyLucky]

outoftheice,
To be honest, I am skeptical of anything coming of this, BUT I sincerely hope you prove me wrong, and I see several strengths to your approach.

Currently, I think most politicians are terrified (as they ought to be) of bringing up an "alternative funding measure" to pay for LRT extensions. No doubt, such a measure will be met with hard headed opposition. However, the beauty of your approach is that it (1) has a very community-oriented grass-roots feel and (2) is only proposing that we ASK Calgarians how they feel about it. I suspect that a surprisingly high proportion of Calgarians would be in favour of an "alternative funding measure" to pay for their LRT. Even if the proposal gauges only luke-warm approval, some of our politicians might actually find the balls (or lady-balls) to take this on.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

outoftheice,
To be honest, I am skeptical of anything coming of this, BUT I sincerely hope you prove me wrong, and I see several strengths to your approach.

Currently, I think most politicians are terrified (as they ought to be) of bringing up an "alternative funding measure" to pay for LRT extensions. No doubt, such a measure will be met with hard headed opposition. However, the beauty of your approach is that it (1) has a very community-oriented grass-roots feel and (2) is only proposing that we ASK Calgarians how they feel about it. I suspect that a surprisingly high proportion of Calgarians would be in favour of an "alternative funding measure" to pay for their LRT. Even if the proposal gauges only luke-warm approval, some of our politicians might actually find the balls (or lady-balls) to take this on.

I think The mode-progression approach of Route Ahead is a good idea to approach Centre Street and other transit improvements. Calgary Transit needs to start getting serious about buses. We have fallen into the same LRT trap that is elsewhere: LRT is the only solution that could possibly give the reliability, service and customer comfort to meet our transit issues. Buses are for poor people that don't need to go places reliably, in comfort or quickly.

I agree LRT offers more permanence and creates a better transit culture when it is built. However, it is so much more expensive. For 1 SE LRT we can have fully dedicated Bus lanes on 16th Ave, Deerfoot, Elbow, Centre and 5 - 10 min headways on all of them.

I am not opposed to finding new ways to pay for transit, we need to because no one else gives a crap in AB Legislature or in parliament. But the level of effort, capital - monetary and political - is enormous for this plan. A properly developed BRT system can hugely improve transit times and reliability and can do it on a much greater area of the city for less cost. Dedicated lanes, all-door boarding, stops spaced 750m to 1km apart while avoiding winding nonsense routes can solve much more if applied on a few major routes rather than 1 LRT line while the rest of the suburbs continue to grow more car-oriented.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by MasterG

I think The mode-progression approach of Route Ahead is a good idea to approach Centre Street and other transit improvements. Calgary Transit needs to start getting serious about buses. We have fallen into the same LRT trap that is elsewhere: LRT is the only solution that could possibly give the reliability, service and customer comfort to meet our transit issues. Buses are for poor people that don't need to go places reliably, in comfort or quickly.

I agree LRT offers more permanence and creates a better transit culture when it is built. However, it is so much more expensive. For 1 SE LRT we can have fully dedicated Bus lanes on 16th Ave, Deerfoot, Elbow, Centre and 5 - 10 min headways on all of them.

I am not opposed to finding new ways to pay for transit, we need to because no one else gives a crap in AB Legislature or in parliament. But the level of effort, capital - monetary and political - is enormous for this plan. A properly developed BRT system can hugely improve transit times and reliability and can do it on a much greater area of the city for less cost. Dedicated lanes, all-door boarding, stops spaced 750m to 1km apart while avoiding winding nonsense routes can solve much more if applied on a few major routes rather than 1 LRT line while the rest of the suburbs continue to grow more car-oriented.

Centre Street N is at the point where BRT is no longer providing enough capacity.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Centre Street N is at the point where BRT is no longer providing enough capacity.

Whole-heartedly agree on Centre Street converting to LRT. My comment was more towards the tendency to have LRT-or-nothing approach to solve the big problems in the SE and elsewhere where the cost might not be the most positive present value investment we can make.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Whole-heartedly agree on Centre Street converting to LRT. My comment was more towards the tendency to have LRT-or-nothing approach to solve the big problems in the SE and elsewhere where the cost might not be the most positive present value investment we can make.

Certainly a large investment in BRT with dedicated lanes would make a huge impact. The city could build dedicated ROW for most of the BRT in the BRT report from a couple of years ago for much less than the cost one one new LRT leg.

[Chadillaccc]

Subway up Centre Street to 40th Avenue.

[You Need A Thneed]

The city fired Telvent for the connect card. Now they have rehired them.

[Bender77]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

The city fired Telvent for the connect card. Now they have rehired them.

Which is now Schneider Electric since they got bought out in 2011.

Do they have any sort of timeline when we might actually get this started and out to the public? Hopefully by 2025!

[DizzyEdge]

They're saying end of 2014 actually, at least that's what I'm hearing on twitter.

[J-D]

It seems like every other time I take the train during rush hour there is a delay due to door malfunctions somewhere on the line. I'm just going out on a limb here but I am also constantly seeing people force themselves onto trains when doors are closing.. and I think there has to be some correlation, if only minor. Perhaps it could be time for a new bylaw and some enforcement to cut down on this?

[outoftheice]

I know that this thread is dedicated to "public transit" but after my first night out downtown in a long time, I felt the need to unload and figured this was the best forum to do it in.... My situation: A good friend of mine was in town from Toronto. We went to the Flames game (a loss... but that's another story). After the Flames game we decided we wanted to have a few drinks in a nice pub. Upon exiting the Saddledome we discovered that there are no obvious places to catch a taxi. Instead, we walked 6 blocks to 'The National' pub on 17th Ave and 5th Street to enjoy a few beverages. At 2 am, the pub closed and we were forced out onto the street to fend for ourselves. I immediately called '#taxi' to try to arrange for a taxi home. After 15 minutes on hold, while standing outside in -15 weather, I was finally connected to Associated Cabs. They told me I was #7 for the calling area and there was no guarantee as to how long it would take for a taxi to arrive. After another 1 hour and 15 minutes (1 hour and 30 minutes total) standing around in -15 temperatures my friend and I were finally able to get into a taxi and this was only by standing in the middle of the street and literally blocking a lane of traffic. Upon asking the taxi driver if waiting over an hour for a taxi was standard for a Saturday night in Calgary we were informed that yes, it was. I have lived in Ireland, England and several cities in Canada and Calgary is the only city where I have had to wait longer than 10 minutes for a taxi cab. Combined with the cold temperatures in the winter, this wait time crosses the line from inconvenience to a health and safety hazard. This is absolutely ridiculous!!! I don't know what the solution is but I was absolutely embarrassed to be a Calgarian tonight and there needs to be a resolution. Whether it be through better public transit or a complete over-haul of the taxi system in Calgary, something needs to be done. "Public Transit" means the ability of the majority of people to make it from 'A' to 'B' without the use of a vehicle. Calgary's bus and train system do this fairly well but they are limited by their hours of service.... Calgary's taxi system is in a desperate need of an overhaul. I just hope this happens sooner rather than later....

[H.E.Pennypacker]

^ Been there before ... One of the reasons why I don't go out in the winter when it's ridiculously cold (that, and I'm getting old)

As for a solution? Building an LRT to the airport and force those cabbies to find their business elsewhere But seriously, I have no idea how to fix it other than extending bus hours on main routes around the core

[Doug]

Calgary has the most expensive and worst taxi service I have experienced. That is to be expected given the Soviet style taxi licensing system. The City should not enforce any quotas on taxi service or restriction on where cab companies can operate.

[J-D]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

I know that this thread is dedicated to "public transit" but after my first night out downtown in a long time, I felt the need to unload and figured this was the best forum to do it in.... My situation: A good friend of mine was in town from Toronto. We went to the Flames game (a loss... but that's another story). After the Flames game we decided we wanted to have a few drinks in a nice pub. Upon exiting the Saddledome we discovered that there are no obvious places to catch a taxi. Instead, we walked 6 blocks to 'The National' pub on 17th Ave and 5th Street to enjoy a few beverages. At 2 am, the pub closed and we were forced out onto the street to fend for ourselves. I immediately called '#taxi' to try to arrange for a taxi home. After 15 minutes on hold, while standing outside in -15 weather, I was finally connected to Associated Cabs. They told me I was #7 for the calling area and there was no guarantee as to how long it would take for a taxi to arrive. After another 1 hour and 15 minutes (1 hour and 30 minutes total) standing around in -15 temperatures my friend and I were finally able to get into a taxi and this was only by standing in the middle of the street and literally blocking a lane of traffic. Upon asking the taxi driver if waiting over an hour for a taxi was standard for a Saturday night in Calgary we were informed that yes, it was. I have lived in Ireland, England and several cities in Canada and Calgary is the only city where I have had to wait longer than 10 minutes for a taxi cab. Combined with the cold temperatures in the winter, this wait time crosses the line from inconvenience to a health and safety hazard. This is absolutely ridiculous!!! I don't know what the solution is but I was absolutely embarrassed to be a Calgarian tonight and there needs to be a resolution. Whether it be through better public transit or a complete over-haul of the taxi system in Calgary, something needs to be done. "Public Transit" means the ability of the majority of people to make it from 'A' to 'B' without the use of a vehicle. Calgary's bus and train system do this fairly well but they are limited by their hours of service.... Calgary's taxi system is in a desperate need of an overhaul. I just hope this happens sooner rather than later....

I've had this happen to me a number of times and there are a couple of things that I have noticed.

First off is this new #TAXI scheme. If you call the regular dispatch numbers, you are greeted with a busy signal and forced to pay for #TAXI. This annoys me. Secondly, I often plan on taking the last train when I go out drinking downtown and then try to get a Taxi from the LRT to reduce the price. Most taxi drivers are more interested in easy fares and dislike when you do this.

A lot of taxi drivers around the world are shysters, and I think Calgary is no different... but at least in most places you can still get one when you want one. I asked a Cabbie on new years if it had been a busy night and he looked me in the face and told me it was slow - this was after it took me over 2 hours just to get a taxi. Probably pandering for a bigger tip.

Anyways, in the future for you... I generally use two methods to get a taxi when it's cold outside. The first method is pretty simple if you are polite and not too inebriated - simply find a hotel and ask the front desk to call you a taxi. Sometimes you have to tip the doorman/front desk staff a few dollars but whatever. My second method involves the 24 hour Tim Hortons that's near 4th/4th... Not only can you grab a decaf there and stay warm - but also a lot of Cabbies stop there between fares to grab a coffee for themselves.