ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[Tuckerman]

RudyJK has it about right. For the average northern ATL area family going out to the ballgame the Turner field was not as wonderful an experience as it could be - inside, the game itself was great - outside - pretty awful. These (Braves owners) are business people not urban aficionados.

[OZ1970]

Originally Posted by Alfred E Neuman

The only person to benefit from the Braves new location would've been pitcher, Pascal Perez.

Thank you for making me laugh with an amusing and memorable moment from Braves history, Mr. Neuman! It was the 1982 season and Pascual Perez got lost driving to Atlanta Fulton County Stadium. Perez was driving in circles when he should have already been at the stadium warming up to pitch - I think it was his first scheduled pitching appearance for the Braves? Anyway, thank you for making me smile!

[micropundit]

Here is an excerpt of a post by Bryant3m regarding the Design Review Committee presentation last night of the 1138 Peachtree proposed project, which was approved with 2 conditions:


the big project of the night was 1138 peachtree. man, this is a huge project. believe it or not, they are going to fit about 150,000 square feet of retail on a site the size of a postage stamp. the plan was very well presented and i'm sure it will find its way on here soon, but i'll give a summary.

the building is a 500+ foot tower with 10 apartments on each floor, and the podium is a 100 foot high glass enclosed complex on the front and a parking deck surrounding the back of the building. there will be retail on the cypress street level (which is the basement level of the building).

the building would front peachtree with THREE levels of retail— one at street level with two storefronts with a lobby in between. the lobby would be primarily for retail customers but would also serve residents. the lobby would have escalators going down to the basement level, which would be a grocery store— they confirmed that the store would not be whole foods, but would be a grocery store that had a history of locating within urban areas. around here, that would only be Wal-Mart and Kroger, but this site is so unique it might be a new market entry for atlanta. they painted a picture of the smells of food wafting up into the lobby from the grocery store below— i can't stress how much of a non-lobby this is really, it's more like an urban mall, something you'd find in new york or tokyo.

they have two options for the ground level retail stores, one would be to have an extension of the grocery store on the ground level, perhaps a café or something, or have an entirely separate retailer. the location of the escalator would depend on the grocery store's decision to lease the ground level space or not.

one level above the ground floor, on the peachtree street side, would be more retail space. but the unique thing about the building is that it is glass enclosed on both the north and south sides of the building, giving retail on the sides of the building visibility from the street. so not only does it have 3 levels of retail on peachtree, it's got retail on the sides also.

For more deets go to:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6337190&postcount=976

[L41A]

Scania ... C'mon man. Chill out. Your tone is so negative and is contributal to the overall decline of the dialog. You are calling people, ignorant, stupid, dumb and idiotic in the last page or so. It's ok to disagree with folk but your tone and name calling is not necessary.

If the Braves want to move to the Cumberland area, fine. All I have to say to the Braves and to Cobb County - be careful what you ask for. And like the Mayor - the Braves will still be my hometown team and favorite MLB team. However, I don't see how the Cumberland area will be so much more accessible than Turner Field. Nor do I think the city or the residents of Summerhill, Peoplestown, Grant Park should cave in to Braves demands of more parking. Nor do I think the area around Turner Field is a slum.

I do agree with RudyJK that maybe the Braves are looking for something more sterile, something that they have control of, something maybe like the DisneyWorld spring training facility in Florida - and maybe their choice location of the Cumberland area is more conducive to that than the Summerhill neighborhood. And maybe - just maybe - their move to Cumberland area will be beneficial to both the city of Atlanta and to them.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by scania

I love urban as much as anyone else on this board. With that being said, I also understand financial and business responsibility. But, lets not get this twisted. All of the urbanity pride in the world would not suggest that being next to a 12 to 14 lane interstate is that urban. Nobody wants to walk around the five block corridor that is east and south of the stadium. That area is extremely unsafe. And you wouldn't walk north because it is basically I-20, and west is walking under the urban pedestrian friendly I-75 and I-85. The point is that there's no urban experience over there.
As far as traffic, yes its bad all over with the worse probably being near Henry County. Its a nightmare wherever you go, and getting off the side streets in the city isn't any better than just staying on the interstates.
At the end of the day, IMO, the hellhole by far is the summerhill community that the stadium sits, and there's no urban/nightlife experience that anybody on this board would honestly want to go.

I am really sick of hearing about the "slum" that surrounds Turner Field. This is simply not true. There obviously are some less than desirable people that always seem to be hanging around outside T.F. and there are a couple of abandoned-looking streets nearby, but the surrounding historic neighborhoods of Peoplestown and Summerhill have some beautiful homes and some very nice streets that are certainly not slums.

How many times have you actually taken a real look at those neighborhoods? It sounds like you're making the same assumptions that many frightened northern suburbanites often make about anything associated with downtown Atlanta. At least take a look at some online photos of the neighborhoods before making such erroneous comments:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=summerhill%20atlanta
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=peoplestown%20atlanta

[scania]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

I am really sick of hearing about the "slum" that surrounds Turner Field. This is simply not true. There obviously are some less than desirable people that always seem to be hanging around outside T.F. and there are a couple of abandoned-looking streets nearby, but the surrounding historic neighborhoods of Peoplestown and Summerhill have some beautiful homes and some very nice streets that are certainly not slums.

How many times have you actually taken a real look at those neighborhoods? It sounds like you're making the same assumptions that many frightened northern suburbanites often make about anything associated with downtown Atlanta. At least take a look at some online photos of the neighborhoods before making such erroneous comments:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=summerhill%20atlanta
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=peoplestown%20atlanta

I've been there recently. As I've been to Lakewood stadium a few weeks ago for a high school football game. As a side job, I buy homes and either resale or rent them out. I'm very familiar with that entire district, as well as a lot of suburbs in the metro area. Now that district does have a few nice areas, but on the whole, IMO it is not a desirable area. If the Mayor follows through with his plans, that area may become much nicer than it is now. But lets be realistic, there plenty of spots that are less desirable in that district.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by scania

I've been there recently. As I've been to Lakewood stadium a few weeks ago for a high school football game. As a side job, I buy homes and either resale or rent them out. I'm very familiar with that entire district, as well as a lot of suburbs in the metro area. Now that district does have a few nice areas, but on the whole, IMO it is not a desirable area. If the Mayor follows through with his plans, that area may become much nicer than it is now. But lets be realistic, there plenty of spots that are less desirable in that district.

Lakewood is not Turner Field. I'm not sure why you lump it in there with the others.

I'm very surprised that you claim to know Summerhill and Peoplestown...if you did you wouldn't characterize it the way you have. I agree that there are lots of people hanging around Turner Field looking for easy pickings and panhandling or whatever, but my point is that those neighborhoods are not as bad as most people think, and from your negative comments you are one of those people.

[RudyJK]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Lakewood is not Turner Field. I'm not sure why you lump it in there with the others.

I'm very surprised that you claim to know Summerhill and Peoplestown...if you did you wouldn't characterize it the way you have. I agree that there are lots of people hanging around Turner Field looking for easy pickings and panhandling or whatever, but my point is that those neighborhoods are not as bad as most people think, and from your negative comments you are one of those people.

What the neighborhood is like away from the immediate vicinity of Turner Field is not that relevant. The surrounding blocks of gypsy lots, panhandlers and general decay is what game attendees experience.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by micropundit

Here is an excerpt of a post by Bryant3m regarding the Design Review Committee presentation last night of the 1138 Peachtree proposed project, which was approved with 2 conditions:


the big project of the night was 1138 peachtree. man, this is a huge project. believe it or not, they are going to fit about 150,000 square feet of retail on a site the size of a postage stamp. the plan was very well presented and i'm sure it will find its way on here soon, but i'll give a summary.

the building is a 500+ foot tower with 10 apartments on each floor, and the podium is a 100 foot high glass enclosed complex on the front and a parking deck surrounding the back of the building. there will be retail on the cypress street level (which is the basement level of the building).

the building would front peachtree with THREE levels of retail— one at street level with two storefronts with a lobby in between. the lobby would be primarily for retail customers but would also serve residents. the lobby would have escalators going down to the basement level, which would be a grocery store— they confirmed that the store would not be whole foods, but would be a grocery store that had a history of locating within urban areas. around here, that would only be Wal-Mart and Kroger, but this site is so unique it might be a new market entry for atlanta. they painted a picture of the smells of food wafting up into the lobby from the grocery store below— i can't stress how much of a non-lobby this is really, it's more like an urban mall, something you'd find in new york or tokyo.

they have two options for the ground level retail stores, one would be to have an extension of the grocery store on the ground level, perhaps a café or something, or have an entirely separate retailer. the location of the escalator would depend on the grocery store's decision to lease the ground level space or not.

one level above the ground floor, on the peachtree street side, would be more retail space. but the unique thing about the building is that it is glass enclosed on both the north and south sides of the building, giving retail on the sides of the building visibility from the street. so not only does it have 3 levels of retail on peachtree, it's got retail on the sides also.

For more deets go to:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6337190&postcount=976

Great news. Didn't they also talk about the development on Peachtree by AT&T?

Are these apartments?

Can't imagine Wal-Mart would add any cache.

Obviously Whole Foods was never going in a lot that small but you gotta believe they will be in (real) Midtown soon.

[scania]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Lakewood is not Turner Field. I'm not sure why you lump it in there with the others.

I'm very surprised that you claim to know Summerhill and Peoplestown...if you did you wouldn't characterize it the way you have. I agree that there are lots of people hanging around Turner Field looking for easy pickings and panhandling or whatever, but my point is that those neighborhoods are not as bad as most people think, and from your negative comments you are one of those people.

I was simply saying that I've driven through the area on the way to Lakewood stadium. I was looking at some potential property to use at rentals. I am very familiar of that area.

[scania]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

What the neighborhood is like away from the immediate vicinity of Turner Field is not that relevant. The surrounding blocks of gypsy lots, panhandlers and general decay is what game attendees experience.

This is so true. I'm amazed some of the forumers will insist on not recognizing these facts.

[scania]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

RudyJK has it about right. For the average northern ATL area family going out to the ballgame the Turner field was not as wonderful an experience as it could be - inside, the game itself was great - outside - pretty awful. These (Braves owners) are business people not urban aficionados.

After discussing this today with some of my coworkers, this is exactly how they felt about going to the games.

[themaguffin]

As expected the comment section of the AJC has the typical wingnuts with there "hey it's business" etc

Yes, true, but this ain't a normal business. Baseball is heavily subsidized and until recent years, had tax exempt status.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

Seems to me that the area selected is perfect for what it looks like the Braves are trying to achieve: their own hermetically sealed universe in which they are in control of virtually every aspect of the fan's experience while on the property - from entry to parking to souvenir shopping. There is plenty of space for some type of year-round experiential park/museum/shop/dine complex on the 41 frontage that could be set apart from the stadium proper. There's even room for them to develop their own themed hotel on the site.

Look at the geographical setup. It's a large piece of land that can be master planned and developed from the get go. It's surrounded by highways, office parks and large apartment complexes that can be fenced off and access denied to the facility. No existing street grid or single family homes - or churches - to deal with.

This may not be what most of us consider to be a great urban sporting event experience but clearly the Braves organization has decided that this is just the type of set up they can form into an environment that their fan-base wants.

After 40+ years of dealing with shady gypsy lots, tacky vendors that decrease their retail sales, a decaying neighborhood that the city seems unwilling or unable to help clean up, decreasing satisfaction with the fan experience outside of the park and finally, the bad publicity of having a fan get shot a block away from the stadium while leaving the game, the Braves got fed up. I can't say I blame them for wanting to get away from all that drama.

It looks to me like Atlanta city government just took it for granted all these years that the Braves would just shut up and live with their bad surroundings for the privilege of being in the city. I wonder how much the recent dust-up between Mayor Reed and the street vendors weighed on this decision?

Great post. I think the Braves are looking to drive revenue through development, too. My understanding is that the City was unwilling to fork over rights to the Braves to develop the area around their stadium?

Methinks the Braves organization was really the best and only hope the City had for turning that area around, and the City blew it. Wasn't it just a year or two ago that there were articles touting a mixed-use environment being developed around TF? Doesn't the City profit share with the Braves on parking already? Wonder if it would have been possible/pencil out for the Braves to buy the land around their stadium and then thus be able to control the area more and take in all of the revenue from parking? Did the City refuse to sell?

[UVAsuperman]

No matter how you feel about the location of where the Braves play, the traffic implications, the economics behind it, the politics behind it (and any related racial or socioeconomic issues), we on this forum should recognize that building a new stadium with a promise of related mixed use development and the City having a big plot of land very close to the downtown core available for new development is a great thing for prospective construction activity in Atlanta over the next say five years. Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about the move yet (I grew up as a Braves fan--was 10 years old in '91 and fondly remember games and the ticker tape parade--and grew up in West Cobb, but now I live intown, so I kindof get both sides of the debate). But more than anything I am excited about two large undeveloped areas (60 acres at 75/285 and the Ted and surrounding parking lots) possibly getting well-designed medium- to high-density mixed use development. I do think the GM site makes more sense for the Braves based on the express motives... but that site represents yet a third big undeveloped parcel on the horizon. Exciting times when it comes to construction activity.

[PremierAtlanta]

Originally Posted by micropundit

Here is an excerpt of a post by Bryant3m regarding the Design Review Committee presentation last night of the 1138 Peachtree proposed project, which was approved with 2 conditions:


the big project of the night was 1138 peachtree. man, this is a huge project. believe it or not, they are going to fit about 150,000 square feet of retail on a site the size of a postage stamp. the plan was very well presented and i'm sure it will find its way on here soon, but i'll give a summary.

the building is a 500+ foot tower with 10 apartments on each floor, and the podium is a 100 foot high glass enclosed complex on the front and a parking deck surrounding the back of the building. there will be retail on the cypress street level (which is the basement level of the building).

the building would front peachtree with THREE levels of retail— one at street level with two storefronts with a lobby in between. the lobby would be primarily for retail customers but would also serve residents. the lobby would have escalators going down to the basement level, which would be a grocery store— they confirmed that the store would not be whole foods, but would be a grocery store that had a history of locating within urban areas. around here, that would only be Wal-Mart and Kroger, but this site is so unique it might be a new market entry for atlanta. they painted a picture of the smells of food wafting up into the lobby from the grocery store below— i can't stress how much of a non-lobby this is really, it's more like an urban mall, something you'd find in new york or tokyo.

they have two options for the ground level retail stores, one would be to have an extension of the grocery store on the ground level, perhaps a café or something, or have an entirely separate retailer. the location of the escalator would depend on the grocery store's decision to lease the ground level space or not.

one level above the ground floor, on the peachtree street side, would be more retail space. but the unique thing about the building is that it is glass enclosed on both the north and south sides of the building, giving retail on the sides of the building visibility from the street. so not only does it have 3 levels of retail on peachtree, it's got retail on the sides also.

For more deets go to:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=6337190&postcount=976

From a retail and height point of view, this will be huge plus for that intersection. The inclusion of a grocer is what is needed in that area.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by RudyJK

What the neighborhood is like away from the immediate vicinity of Turner Field is not that relevant. The surrounding blocks of gypsy lots, panhandlers and general decay is what game attendees experience.

I think you misread TarHeelJ. He didn't bring up Lakewood. Scania did. He was indeed speaking of the areas in the immediate vicinity of Turner Field (Summerhill, Peoplestown). But I don't disagree that game attendees from Cobb County and others who just come to the area just for the games may draw their opinions solely from that gameday experience

[L41A]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

I am really sick of hearing about the "slum" that surrounds Turner Field. This is simply not true. There obviously are some less than desirable people that always seem to be hanging around outside T.F. and there are a couple of abandoned-looking streets nearby, but the surrounding historic neighborhoods of Peoplestown and Summerhill have some beautiful homes and some very nice streets that are certainly not slums.

How many times have you actually taken a real look at those neighborhoods? It sounds like you're making the same assumptions that many frightened northern suburbanites often make about anything associated with downtown Atlanta. At least take a look at some online photos of the neighborhoods before making such erroneous comments:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=summerhill%20atlanta
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=peoplestown%20atlanta

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Lakewood is not Turner Field. I'm not sure why you lump it in there with the others.

I'm very surprised that you claim to know Summerhill and Peoplestown...if you did you wouldn't characterize it the way you have. I agree that there are lots of people hanging around Turner Field looking for easy pickings and panhandling or whatever, but my point is that those neighborhoods are not as bad as most people think, and from your negative comments you are one of those people.

I agree with your general assessment.

I do know Lakewood personally and not by going to concert at the amphitheater or driving through. And Lakewood itself ain't nearly as bad as people are trying to display it. But it has been illustrated here some people speak in such stark harsh terms when it's really not necessary.

I have a relative who lives in Lakewood. And I'm over to visit often. Just recently, they hosted a family get-together and I along with other family members/friends commented independently how much I/we liked their house. I like their street, their proximity to the airport, to Downtown. He pointed out other residential construction happening on adjacent streets. His wife (who travels often both nationally and internationally for work) stated her commute to corporate office in Buckhead is no more than 20-30 minutes and the ATL airport, Downtown, Midtown are even closer. They jog in the neighborhood. We did discuss the occassional nuisance of the concerts at Lakewood Amphitheater on previous visits but the concerts are only during the warmer months and have to end by 10pm (I think) or maybe 11pm.

Furthermore, I know (and not necessarily personally from them) that Screen Gem Studios is developing 33 acre site space at the Lakewood Fairgrounds for movie and television studios. I know further that the Beltline is not that faraway.

Of course the neighborhood ain't a collection of Habersham Roads or West Paces Ferry Roads and people who live on nearby streets may make a lot less than them. But I certainly see some desirable traits in where they live.

[briantech]

Originally Posted by PremierAtlanta

From a retail and height point of view, this will be huge plus for that intersection. The inclusion of a grocer is what is needed in that area.

A whole foods would be awesome.... but I think even better would be something like this:



There's already a publix right on 9th st. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a more upscale grocer in the neighborhood too, but I think whats more sorely lacking is an actual general-availability retailer like Target. That has normal clothes and housewares and shit you just need on a daily basis.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by briantech

A whole foods would be awesome.... but I think even better would be something like this:



There's already a publix right on 9th st. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have a more upscale grocer in the neighborhood too, but I think whats more sorely lacking is an actual general-availability retailer like Target. That has normal clothes and housewares and shit you just need on a daily basis.

I don't know Brian, with the big Target at Atlantic Station I wonder how likely that would be? The typical City Target's popping up around the country seem to be around 100,000 sf or so. This site just might be too close to that store.

I have a hunch the market will be a Sprouts. They are moving into the metro in a big way starting mid-Summer. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a City Target and I'm sure we are on their short list. I've heard rumors of one at Ponce City Market.

On an unrelated note I'm so glad the beautiful Carson Pirie Scott building on State Street isn't sitting empty, but I had no idea it was a City Target now!