[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That's a great point, whatever is built there will be there for a long time, and therefore it's reasonable to keep an eye on what we would like it to be for the future, not just ok it because it's better than what has been there. The Barrington side of Scotia square is a prime example.

What will the planners of 30 years in the future be saying about this project?

There are a lot more problems in downtown Halifax than Scotia Square and the frontage along Barrington.
If it were still occupied with a thriving department store and grocery store as well as 75 other stores, we would not be quite so negative about it.
The lack of development in downtown Halifax over the last 30 years mainly caused by HT and other special interest groups has brought us to where we are.
Hopefully we have turned a page and city council is no longer swayed by the traditional naysayers.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think it'd be a great idea permanently, though. With all the bars, restos, Neptune Theatre, etc, it's already basically the nightlife district. There are no business that depend on street parking, and it's not exactly a major auto thoroughfare. The Convention Centre will bring a lot of visitors to the area who will probably appreciate spilling out of the hotel/centre into an inviting, urban boulevard filled with shops and restaurants.

It's the most logical ped-and-bikes only street in town, and it would become a natural setting for small, informal events. Pedestrian malls rarely work when they're foisted on an area (see: Granville) but this seems like a natural extension of the street's existing strengths.

Strongly, strongly, agree with this!

All the talk about SGR being pedestrian would be a bad idea, and really disrupt things, but Argyle would be perfect. It's actually not a very good street to drive on anyways. So long as Nova Centre sets the right amount of set back and street front space for retail / cafes / restos / restaurants, etc, this could be huge.

[Keith P.]

Making Argyle ped-only, along with the changes proposed for Grafton, means that you are removing 2 N-S ways to connect D/T to Spring Garden. You are left with Brunswick, which has very little on it, and Barrington, which connects at SGR's dead end. There is a surprising amount of traffic on Argyle. I believe this is a bad idea.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Making Argyle ped-only, along with the changes proposed for Grafton, means that you are removing 2 N-S ways to connect D/T to Spring Garden. You are left with Brunswick, which has very little on it, and Barrington, which connects at SGR's dead end. There is a surprising amount of traffic on Argyle. I believe this is a bad idea.

Do you have data on that Argyle assumption? I think there is very little traffic on Argyle that "connects" with SGR. The only time there seems to be traffic on Argyle, is during a Mooseheads game when people are looking for a parking spot.

How about a compromise, then? Rather than total closure, we develop the street to emphasize pedestrian uses?

As proposed here: http://pdcentre.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Argyle_FinalDoc_DS_20Sep20122.pdf

One way to do that, is close the street to traffic at specific times.

So: how about closing Argyle to traffic on weekends?

[Drybrain]

Argyle doesn't directly connect with SGR at all though--Market Street is even slightly more direct, as a hook-up to lower Grafton or Brunswick, and someone can always dodge west on Sackville to Queen or Dresden Row.

But as counterfactual suggested, yes, the shared street concept, in which cars are paremitted but not privileged over other forms of transport, would be a good compromise. If people REALLY wanted to drive down Argyle they still could, but it'd be a lot slower and and the street would accommodate a lot less auto traffic--but still some.

From an urbanist's perspective, it's ridiculously logical to do this to Argyle. It's among the most pedestrian-trafficked streets downtown already, with one of the highest densities of pedestrian-oriented amenities, and the Nova Centre will really cap that off.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

From an urbanist's perspective, it's ridiculously logical to do this to Argyle. It's among the most pedestrian-trafficked streets downtown already, with one of the highest densities of pedestrian-oriented amenities, and the Nova Centre will really cap that off.

That logic would apply if Grafton remained contiguous. But since it isn't, you are breaking 2 blocks worth of streets, just like Scotia Square and Metro Center did. And everyone loves to criticize that.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

That logic would apply if Grafton remained contiguous. But since it isn't, you are breaking 2 blocks worth of streets, just like Scotia Square and Metro Center did. And everyone loves to criticize that.

The streets would still be there, you just wouldn't be able to drive down them.
With Scotia Square, I don't think many people are complaining that the lost streets are now unavailable to drive on, it's that they were lost altogether.

[Nifta]

Yep. Argyle has a lot more pedestrian traffic than it does car traffic.

[Jonovision]

They were working will past sundown yesterday.

[RyeJay]

Is there a rush to get this thing built?

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Is there a rush to get this thing built?

I dont think so, But you cant pour Half a wall and come back and finish it tomorrow. Once you start pouring an element, you need to finish it otherwise concrete cures unevenly and creates a weak spot.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Hali87

The streets would still be there, you just wouldn't be able to drive down them.
With Scotia Square, I don't think many people are complaining that the lost streets are now unavailable to drive on, it's that they were lost altogether.

By pure coincidence I've just come back from watching an interesting documentary called The Human Scale, which dealt quite heavily with this issue of human space vs. vehicle space. One of the big case studies was in New York where they pedestrianized major intersections along Broadway in spite of significant initial resistance. Turns out that not only was making Times Square an actual square a huge hit but that traffic was negligibly affected despite widespread fears because despite having the vast majority of the physical area, vehicles were only a small fraction of the traffic actually using the space.

Point being, people are always going to bitch and moan about the prospect of change regardless of what it is (doesn't sound like Halifax at all!) and even when it's based around what is really a pretty obvious and banal observation about something like how a street is used. It's just a matter of putting that observation into physical practice to get people to realize that hey, sure enough the world hasn't caved in by accepting what a public site is already telling you.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

Point being, people are always going to bitch and moan about the prospect of change regardless of what it is (doesn't sound like Halifax at all!)

One perverse manifestation of this attitude is the fact that people will accept expensive tunnels or elevated trains, but they will offhandedly discount the idea of taking two lanes along one of many streets and dedicating them to transit, even when the transit could obviously carry far more people than the mixed traffic lanes.

It's practically common knowledge in Halifax that there's "nowhere to put" LRT or streetcars, but this isn't true at all, even if you forget about the rail cut or other existing rail corridors.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's practically common knowledge in Halifax that there's "nowhere to put" LRT or streetcars, but this isn't true at all, even if you forget about the rail cut or other existing rail corridors.

Just try not to make our mistake. Supposedly there's a tunnel running under the length of 7th Ave that was intended for the downtown stretch of Calgary's LRT, yet was abandoned late in the project. The LRT has been proudly cocking up downtown's traffic flow ever since.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by someone123

One perverse manifestation of this attitude is the fact that people will accept expensive tunnels or elevated trains, but they will offhandedly discount the idea of taking two lanes along one of many streets and dedicating them to transit, even when the transit could obviously carry far more people than the mixed traffic lanes.

It's practically common knowledge in Halifax that there's "nowhere to put" LRT or streetcars, but this isn't true at all, even if you forget about the rail cut or other existing rail corridors.

I think some one way streets could accommodate street cars.

[fenwick16]

There is a great new batch of pictures from Ziobrop - http://fillingtheholehfx.tumblr.com/ . In the picture below the forms are being prepared to pour the Exhibition Hall level floor. This is the level where they will have to stop until the amendments go through (however there is still lots to do in the next few months). The Exhibition Hall ceiling will extend up above Argyle Street.

[Aya_Akai]

So.. Nova Centre was pretty big talk at Hal-Con over the weekend (Not sure if any of you here attended ) but I think it's safe to say that the convention scene is not 'dying' as many claim as the current venue could not handle the crowd demand this year, and the convention was nearly shut down due to the WTCC space being beyond capacity. This was all over the news and social media saturday afternoon and reports were filed on all major news outlets..


From CBC

A crowd of angry fans were forbidden from entering the largest sci-fi, fantasy and gaming convention in Eastern Canada because the venue was at capacity.

Many had bought tickets for Hal-Con ahead of time, but the fire marshal stepped in saying no one else could enter. Firefighters and police were called in.

The wait to get in on Saturday was approximately six hours.

The lineup stretched from the World Trade Convention Centre on Argyle Street down the steps of Grand Parade. People piled into the park to get refunds.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hal-con-reaches-capacity-anger-erupts-1.2421164

I've worked large conventions in the US in several cities with proper, and up to todays' standard-sized convention spaces, and a situation like this is absolutely unacceptable (the halcon website was partially to blame for not capping sales on day passes to the convention) but having to turn away nearly 2000 people and issue refunds... I think this just furthers the point that we need to get Nova Centre finished ASAP, up and running so more events can be brought forward, and situations like this weekend don't happen again, as it gives the convention a bad rep, the convention space itself gets knocked pretty hard as well as the host city...

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by someone123

One perverse manifestation of this attitude is the fact that people will accept expensive tunnels or elevated trains, but they will offhandedly discount the idea of taking two lanes along one of many streets and dedicating them to transit, even when the transit could obviously carry far more people than the mixed traffic lanes.

It's practically common knowledge in Halifax that there's "nowhere to put" LRT or streetcars, but this isn't true at all, even if you forget about the rail cut or other existing rail corridors.

I think the "common knowledge" you're talking about is mainly "common knowledge" among HRM planning staff, which seem to be even more resistant to change than any member of the general public. All the ANS stories on the latest RP+5 are a great example of this-- the CDAC has basically revolted against the fact that staff don't seem to be taking public / community input seriously.

Anyways, I would LOVE some streetcars downtown.

I've always thought that a perfect place for a streetcar would run from the bottom of Duke (near the Ferry Terminal) all the way up to Brunswick street. It would be great to move people from the ferry further uptown to feed Barrington stops or bus stops (right now, you have to walk up from the ferry to make a common connection like the 1 SGR, which is stupid and discourages ferry use) or to bring people to City Hall, Metro Centre or Citadel Hill.

Tourists would also love it, because it would be an easy way up the hill, hitting popular destinations along the way.

I can't see how this would disrupt traffic very much at all. Very few cars run up Duke, even during rush hour. Create a streetcar lane down the middle.. And perhaps, if successful, it could one way run all the way up Rainnie to the Oval at the Commons...

Why are streetcars never debated or pitched at Council?

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by HaliStreaks

So.. Nova Centre was pretty big talk at Hal-Con over the weekend (Not sure if any of you here attended ) but I think it's safe to say that the convention scene is not 'dying' as many claim as the current venue could not handle the crowd demand this year, and the convention was nearly shut down due to the WTCC space being beyond capacity. This was all over the news and social media saturday afternoon and reports were filed on all major news outlets..


From CBC


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hal-con-reaches-capacity-anger-erupts-1.2421164

I've worked large conventions in the US in several cities with proper, and up to todays' standard-sized convention spaces, and a situation like this is absolutely unacceptable (the halcon website was partially to blame for not capping sales on day passes to the convention) but having to turn away nearly 2000 people and issue refunds... I think this just furthers the point that we need to get Nova Centre finished ASAP, up and running so more events can be brought forward, and situations like this weekend don't happen again, as it gives the convention a bad rep, the convention space itself gets knocked pretty hard as well as the host city...

Be careful, or that eternal Nova Centre boosterism deflater Tim Bousquet will appear on here to shout you down.

[someone123]

The arguments against conventions in Halifax were never very convincing. It felt like STV et al. simply decided to switch gears once they saw the NIMBY angle wasn't enough on its own, even though that was their real reason for being against the convention centre.

They did bring that anti-convention guy to town but his presentation seemed very generic and US-focused. Hal-Con is the perfect example of why that line of reasoning is flawed; there is nowhere else people in Atlantic Canada can easily go for a large event like that. The situation is quite different from the US where there might be multiple large venues within driving distance and where air travel is a fraction of the cost.