Calgary Public Transit II

[joe498]

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/entertain...w+with+transportation/9089858/story.html

EDMONTON - The Alberta government says it will introduce new legislation this fall that would give the province the power to designate lanes for specific use in an effort to reduce commute times.

The new bill would only apply to provincial roads, such as Anthony Henday Drive in Edmonton or Deerfoot Trail in Calgary. Municipalities already have the power to designate lanes for specific uses within city limits.

Lol.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by joe498

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/entertain...w+with+transportation/9089858/story.html

EDMONTON - The Alberta government says it will introduce new legislation this fall that would give the province the power to designate lanes for specific use in an effort to reduce commute times.

The new bill would only apply to provincial roads, such as Anthony Henday Drive in Edmonton or Deerfoot Trail in Calgary. Municipalities already have the power to designate lanes for specific uses within city limits.

Lol.

Woah, interesting! Looks like McIvor picked up a taste for HOV lanes on his latest American holiday.

[Calgarian]

Isn't Deerfoot going to become a city road again?

I think 3 lanes is a bit narrow for a proper HOV lane, especially since there are spots where it all goes down to 2 lanes. I can imagine all the Sun readers comments about Social Engineering and Nanny States lol, but they will all probably bitch about traffic at the same time.

It's good in theory, but wouldn't work on a road built to such a sub-standard and so hugely over capacity like Deerfoot.

Originally Posted by fusili

Time of day tolls on Deerfoot, Stoney, Crowchild and Glenmore can solve that.

It's almost as if the whole point of Stoney is to get traffic off of city roads, but you want to toll it?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Acey

It's good in theory, but wouldn't work on a road built to such a sub-standard and so hugely over capacity like Deerfoot.



It's almost as if the whole point of Stoney is to get traffic off of city roads, but you want to toll it?

Yup. Tolls work incredibly well at shifting travel behavior to off-peak periods and other modes of transportation. Massively, massively well. If you want to reduce congestion, tolls are the only way any city has ever done it effectively.

Another way to do it is to just toll every overpass crossing Stoney, which acts as a cost to drivers from Airdrie, Chestermere, Okotoks and Cochrane, who, IMO, should be tolled as much as possible to make up for their pariah status.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

Yup. Tolls work incredibly well at shifting travel behavior to off-peak periods and other modes of transportation. Massively, massively well.

I've done rush hour in a few heavily tolled cities that would disagree with you. All it does is generate revenue for more roadworks, and force lower income people out of their cars (or onto side streets, wasting even more of their limited time with their families after working 2 jobs that day).

Why yes, I did spend a summer in Houston.

That being said, with the billions in toll revenue, that city sure is good at adding road capacity and inducing traffic.

Or is the implication that there's a lot of "behaviour" that can be moved to different times voluntarily, ie: without tolls, tons of people willingly head into rush hour congestion simply because it never occurs to them to wait until after 9 to go to the grocery store?

I'm being a fair bit tongue-in-cheek, but I dunno, man. Tolls sure don't seem to be the panacea that many make them out to be.

[MalcolmTucker]

You don't need to reduce traffic by very much to move from failure to congestion, or congestion to freeflow. The key is that in failure the road actually has lower through put than in congestion, so if you can stop the road from hitting the point where the the extra car pushes you to failure, you can actually increase capacity.

At least for the downtown core we already have a congestion charge in the form of the parking spot levy. It is hidden but it is there.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I've done rush hour in a few heavily tolled cities that would disagree with you. All it does is generate revenue for more roadworks, and force lower income people out of their cars (or onto side streets, wasting even more of their limited time with their families after working 2 jobs that day).

Why yes, I did spend a summer in Houston.

That being said, with the billions in toll revenue, that city sure is good at adding road capacity and inducing traffic.

Or is the implication that there's a lot of "behaviour" that can be moved to different times voluntarily, ie: without tolls, tons of people willingly head into rush hour congestion simply because it never occurs to them to wait until after 9 to go to the grocery store?

I'm being a fair bit tongue-in-cheek, but I dunno, man. Tolls sure don't seem to be the panacea that many make them out to be.

They have worked hellishly good in Stockholm and London. Key was to use toll revenue on transit expansion. It probably failed in Houston because Houston has no viable alternatives whatsoever. However, tolls seem to work better on downtown centred traffic, mostly because transit is a viable alternative in that case. In Calgary, parking prices act as an indirect toll however.

IMO, tolls would work best in Calgary as a price measure against the tax pariahs in Okotoks, Chestermere, Cochrane and Airdrie. I have no qualms about charging those people $5 a day to come into the city. Set up cameras, charge any license plate that makes more than two entries into the city per week (so as not to hurt tourism or shopping trips into the city) and use the Ring Road as the "zone". Don't know what to do about Tuscany, Royal Oak, Rocky Ridge, Evanston, Mahogany, etc in that case though.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I've done rush hour in a few heavily tolled cities that would disagree with you. All it does is generate revenue for more roadworks, and force lower income people out of their cars (or onto side streets, wasting even more of their limited time with their families after working 2 jobs that day).

Why yes, I did spend a summer in Houston.

That being said, with the billions in toll revenue, that city sure is good at adding road capacity and inducing traffic.

Or is the implication that there's a lot of "behaviour" that can be moved to different times voluntarily, ie: without tolls, tons of people willingly head into rush hour congestion simply because it never occurs to them to wait until after 9 to go to the grocery store?

I'm being a fair bit tongue-in-cheek, but I dunno, man. Tolls sure don't seem to be the panacea that many make them out to be.

If tolls won't work here because they don't work in Houston, then just as surely light rail won't have high ridership here, because it doesn't in Houston.

Tolling freeways to build more freeways is one thing; tolling roads to manage congestion and ensure people pay the cost of their commute is another thing entirely.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

If tolls won't work here because they don't work in Houston, then just as surely light rail won't have high ridership here, because it doesn't in Houston.

Tolling freeways to build more freeways is one thing; tolling roads to manage congestion and ensure people pay the cost of their commute is another thing entirely.

I think what you can do to get around this is a HOV / Toll lane. Free for 2 or more, $0.50 of $1.00 per km for single-occupancy vehicles. Make the toll change based on road conditions: inbound during rush-hour? $1.00/km. off-peak? $0.1 or $0.25.

The technology is used everywhere and its easy. Just send you a bill at the end of the month based on cameras and your license plate. Have the toll be used for Deerfoot improvements, area transit improvements etc.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

If tolls won't work here because they don't work in Houston, then just as surely light rail won't have high ridership here, because it doesn't in Houston.

But that's not what I said at all. I was responding to the claim that tolls always work, and they're the only way to modify behaviour. They clearly don't always work, and it's a lot more complicated than that. Tolls have all sorts of unintended negative consequences that need to be looked at. And there are often much smarter things that can be done.

As an example, if Calgary had allowed unrestricted downtown parking all along, but tolled Deerfoot - do any of you seriously think our LRT usage would be anywhere close to what it is today?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by fusili

IMO, tolls would work best in Calgary as a price measure against the tax pariahs in Okotoks, Chestermere, Cochrane and Airdrie. I have no qualms about charging those people $5 a day to come into the city. Set up cameras, charge any license plate that makes more than two entries into the city per week (so as not to hurt tourism or shopping trips into the city) and use the Ring Road as the "zone". Don't know what to do about Tuscany, Royal Oak, Rocky Ridge, Evanston, Mahogany, etc in that case though.

I'd flip this on its head and ask why we simply don't annex these communities, and put them under strict development controls along with the rest of the city. The horse is out of the barn on what's been built, but surely we can do better before we turn into an exurban nightmare that would do the US proud. Some of the estimates for Airdrie scare the shit out of me. And people are seriously talking about publicly-funded commuter systems to bring them into downtown by the thousands each day. WTF?!?!

If we went for your "zone" - use the city limits. Seems easier.

Or we could just tax the shit out of fuel and reduce all driving, which should be the idea here.

[RyLucky]

I consider myself very pro-transit, but I'm not a fan of road tolls or transit zones. For transit revenue, I much prefer gas tax (because nobody changes their behaviour at all), parking fees (because parking lots are the WORST anyway), and pedestrian-first road design (more xings, more trees, wider sidewalks, and narrower driving lanes to reduce speed).

I guess part of it is that tolls and zones divide us and give outsiders a reason to hate the city, whereas fewer parking lots and more pedestrian-oriented spaces promote development and encourage outsiders to visit.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'd flip this on its head and ask why we simply don't annex these communities, and put them under strict development controls along with the rest of the city. The horse is out of the barn on what's been built, but surely we can do better before we turn into an exurban nightmare that would do the US proud. Some of the estimates for Airdrie scare the shit out of me. And people are seriously talking about publicly-funded commuter systems to bring them into downtown by the thousands each day. WTF?!?!

If we went for your "zone" - use the city limits. Seems easier.

Or we could just tax the shit out of fuel and reduce all driving, which should be the idea here.

That might work.

I too consider myself pro transit, but my 20-25 minute commute turns into a 90-95 train/bus detour halfway across the city if I choose to use transit. Yeah, that amounts to like 80 hours of my life wasted this semester... so no thanks. Go ahead and toll Stoney, I for one won't give a fuck as my 80 hours are far more valuable.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by Acey

I too consider myself pro transit, but my 20-25 minute commute turns into a 90-95 train/bus detour halfway across the city if I choose to use transit. Yeah, that amounts to like 80 hours of my life wasted this semester... so no thanks. Go ahead and toll Stoney, I for one won't give a fuck as my 80 hours are far more valuable.

Problem solved. Toll Stoney. How long does it take you during the winter on those really bad snow days Acey?

[sim]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'd flip this on its head and ask why we simply don't annex these communities, and put them under strict development controls along with the rest of the city. The horse is out of the barn on what's been built, but surely we can do better before we turn into an exurban nightmare that would do the US proud. Some of the estimates for Airdrie scare the shit out of me. And people are seriously talking about publicly-funded commuter systems to bring them into downtown by the thousands each day. WTF?!?!

If we went for your "zone" - use the city limits. Seems easier.

Or we could just tax the shit out of fuel and reduce all driving, which should be the idea here.

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I consider myself very pro-transit, but I'm not a fan of road tolls or transit zones. For transit revenue, I much prefer gas tax (because nobody changes their behaviour at all), parking fees (because parking lots are the WORST anyway), and pedestrian-first road design (more xings, more trees, wider sidewalks, and narrower driving lanes to reduce speed).

I guess part of it is that tolls and zones divide us and give outsiders a reason to hate the city, whereas fewer parking lots and more pedestrian-oriented spaces promote development and encourage outsiders to visit.

While I agree that HOV lanes don't work in all cases or even necessarily HOT lanes, they are likely a better measure than an excessive fuel tax increase. That is something that should probably be treaded very lightly on:

If you tax province wide (and to the level where behaviour actually changes in an urban area) and unneccesarily punish rural areas (remembering that those roads, subsidized as they may be, are able to get primary resources to the market - well so that urban dwellers can even be urban dwellers) you may wreak economic havoc. Furthermore, if you are using a gas tax to alleviate congestion via internalization of those costs, then the premise fails in rural areas from the onset - there isn't any [congestion].

Or you apply the fuel tax to the regional area where this is an issue. Several problems: where and what defines that regional area? How do you implement/enforce over a regional area that is in multiple jurisdictions? Even if you do, you're liable to see some interesting travel patterns with regards to where people get gas - evidenced in the Vancouver area.

I personally believe, and I've said it before, that if you are going to have one solution only, then it would be to price parking accordingly and city wide. Let the current congestion maintain its level of generalized costs on drivers and add to that with making it more expensive to do a trip. Admittedly, there is no one single appropriate solution.

In actuality the first best solution is a fee by vehicle kms travelled combined with pricing for all parking, but good luck with that.

Originally Posted by MasterG

Problem solved. Toll Stoney. How long does it take you during the winter on those really bad snow days Acey?

Not really any longer than otherwise unless I were to leave much earlier, which I do on occasion. At the usual time I leave it's stop and go almost the whole way anyway due to volume, so snow doesn't change it much.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by Acey

I too consider myself pro transit, but my 20-25 minute commute turns into a 90-95 train/bus detour halfway across the city if I choose to use transit. Yeah, that amounts to like 80 hours of my life wasted this semester... so no thanks. Go ahead and toll Stoney, I for one won't give a fuck as my 80 hours are far more valuable.

Are you saying that you support tolling, or are you saying that tolling won't affect your behaviour? Or both?

I support tolling, I just don't foresee it being beneficial to the city of Calgary at the moment. Something like Texas 130 is a different story. When they finally get it together and open the SE leg, Stoney will allow me to drive home to Lethbridge to see my parents and friends for the weekend instead of having to wait for over an hour on Deerfoot. Would I pay that toll? Without question.