London Roads

[K85]

And Highbury up to Trafalgar?... I avoid this word, but whoever did this or approved it is a retard.

[manny_santos]

I really dislike the design of the Official Road Map of Ontario in recent years. I'd rather they at least show the VMP the way it would've been in the 90s, with white or pink in the middle.

[haljackey]

I hadn't used it in the longest time... Most use Google Maps now. Can't even remember the last time I used MapQuest.


I took Southdale yesterday. Quick tip: don't. Bumper to bumper. Construction looks like it will carry onto the late autumn. I was very surprised how late work started it on it (really began in June)... Who knows, delays might force it to carry over into the winter or layover to the spring.

[MolsonExport]

the only worse area is around Oxfart and Hyde Parking Lot. In all their wisdom, both north and south access roads to the unReal Canadian Sluperstore (oxfart + royal York rd) are simultaneously under construction. You can get into the parking lot, but just try getting out. You can't. Stuck there until the end of times behind a row of cars trying to make a left-hand turn.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I hadn't used it in the longest time... Most use Google Maps now. Can't even remember the last time I used MapQuest.


I took Southdale yesterday. Quick tip: don't. Bumper to bumper. Construction looks like it will carry onto the late autumn. I was very surprised how late work started it on it (really began in June)... Who knows, delays might force it to carry over into the winter or layover to the spring.

I was on Southdale today (took a very quick trip to London). It took 10 minutes to get from the Loblaws entrance to Wharncliffe.

[Pimpmasterdac]

London finally seems to be getting into gear about building an overpass on Adelaide by the CP rail tracks. Civic Works Committee is putting forward a recommendation that Adelaide/CP rail crossing as the highest priority for a grade separation. As well an EA will begin in 2014 for a new overpass crossing. London hopes that it'll have similar funding to the Hale/Trafalgar overpass, when London contributed only 1/6 of the cost, as the overpass is anticipated to cost ~$25 million.

Much needed project IMO. Hopefully it can be actually started by the end of the decade, not just pushed back and delayed continually. Downtown/central London has no continuous 4 lane north-south route that isn't subject to some restrictions. Richmond has its awful CP rail crossing which clogs downtown and will likely never be grade separated due to the impacts. Wharncliffe would be good but the outdated CN & CP underpasses constrict the lanes to 3 & 2 lanes and constantly pushed back. Talbot at least has an underpass, but is 2 lanes, isn't continuous and has height restrictions.

Adelaide had a design plan for an overpass in the 1960s for the CP rail crossing, which was similar to the Adelaide CN overpass is size and scope. Would have loop ramps, an underpass for Central Ave and about 2 dozen properties expropriated..

Civic Works Recommendation:http://sire.london.ca/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=116286

Adelaide CP Overpass 1968 plan:http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4628/uer5.jpg

[MolsonExport]

$25M for an overpass? Insane.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

Adelaide CP Overpass 1968 plan:http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/r3m4.jpg/

Dead link.

[Pimpmasterdac]

That's just the prelim estimate, and in current dollars. Hale/Trafalgar roundabout overpass was tendered at $11 million, came over budget at $16 million. So who knows what it would tender and actually come in on. Even if the same funding arrangements applied, London's look at a good $5 million minimum for it.

Adelaide would be costlier, based on the 2 dozen+ properties that would need to be expropriated, building costs as it would have to be a gradual gradient change for the overpass, as well as staging costs, since I'd assume city would want Adelaide to be partially open during its construction. Probably be similar, although not as big as Adelaide CN overpass since it has York & Bathurst streets running under it, as designed for 5 rail lines underneath. I believe only Central Ave and 2 rail lines would run underneath the CP overpass.

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Dead link.

My bad. Try this http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4628/uer5.jpg, edited on the original post too

[ssiguy]

I'll be believe it when I see it.

back in the 70s they were talking about extending Adelaide south of Commissioners to the 401 as an alternative to already congested Wellington.............enough said.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

London finally seems to be getting into gear about building an overpass on Adelaide by the CP rail tracks. Civic Works Committee is putting forward a recommendation that Adelaide/CP rail crossing as the highest priority for a grade separation. As well an EA will begin in 2014 for a new overpass crossing. London hopes that it'll have similar funding to the Hale/Trafalgar overpass, when London contributed only 1/6 of the cost, as the overpass is anticipated to cost ~$25 million.

Much needed project IMO. Hopefully it can be actually started by the end of the decade, not just pushed back and delayed continually. Downtown/central London has no continuous 4 lane north-south route that isn't subject to some restrictions. Richmond has its awful CP rail crossing which clogs downtown and will likely never be grade separated due to the impacts. Wharncliffe would be good but the outdated CN & CP underpasses constrict the lanes to 3 & 2 lanes and constantly pushed back. Talbot at least has an underpass, but is 2 lanes, isn't continuous and has height restrictions.

Adelaide had a design plan for an overpass in the 1960s for the CP rail crossing, which was similar to the Adelaide CN overpass is size and scope. Would have loop ramps, an underpass for Central Ave and about 2 dozen properties expropriated..

Civic Works Recommendation:http://sire.london.ca/view.aspx?cabinet=published_meetings&fileid=116286

Adelaide CP Overpass 1968 plan:http://imageshack.us/a/img201/9348/r3m4.jpg

Forget about the overpass. Get the stupid freight trains out of the city altogether. This isn't the 60's and 70's anymore. Building more overpasses just ensures we keep the trains in the city. London is a city of 400,000 and we have huge trains going through it. I don't know what bothers me more - the fact that we have these trains in town or the fact that no one cares at all. Imagine what could be done in that space once the trains were removed.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

My bad. Try this http://imageshack.us/a/img201/9348/r3m4.jpg, edited on the original post too

Still dead.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

$25M for an overpass? Insane.

In this day and age, red tape takes up the majority of the cost.

While it's good to do lots of environmental assessments, safety designs, etc, it substantially drives up the cost and ultimately delays the projects... Sometimes causing plans to be revised or not built to spec due to cost concerns or ultimately cancelled.

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Forget about the overpass. Get the stupid freight trains out of the city altogether. This isn't the 60's and 70's anymore. Building more overpasses just ensures we keep the trains in the city. London is a city of 400,000 and we have huge trains going through it. I don't know what bothers me more - the fact that we have these trains in town or the fact that no one cares at all. Imagine what could be done in that space once the trains were removed.

Some think this is a pipe dream but it really isn't... This is relatively easy to do if there was the political will to do so. The railway corridors could create a great walkway system in the city... Possibly a busway. In time, some of the brownfield sites (like the freight yards) could be redeveloped, and would make great infill projects for the city.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

$25M for an overpass? Insane.

It is quite insane...I would bet 1/4 of the costs are "planning" and "environmental assessments" and talking about it over and over again.

Would be great to see this done however I still feel Wharncliffe/Horton work should be done before any other "rail" work personally.

[Pimpmasterdac]

I recall there being talk/calls to consolidate the railways in the 1980/90s, either with an entirely new route much further to the (then) south of London or all via CNs tracks. Never went anywhere obviously. While it could be done, it whether CN & CP would ever agree to such a scheme. Though I bet CN & CP could care less about the effects of their lines on London, and unless there was some incentive would probably continue with the status quo. Only hope I could see would be with the major rail accidents that have occurred in the past few months if there was a national push to consolidate out of safety sake.

Adelaide would get precedent over Wharncliffe since Adelaide is still at-grade and completely blocks traffic numerous times a day. Wharncliffe is a bad bottleneck that functions poorly, but at least still functions. The 2004 Transportation Plan called on Wharncliffe underpass to be done before 2010, while now I believe it's scheduled for 2021. Wharncliffe's double whammy since both CN & CP underpasses need widening, and from what I understand underpasses are difficult to do work since the rail lines need to be kept active simultaneously while work goes on. As well Western Road needs to be widened completely to 5 lanes. Adelaide needs an overpass and its uninterrupted 4 lanes through most of the city. Both roads need these projects years ago.

Either way it’s $10s of millions that’s gonna be spent on all these structures, just because of the rail lines…

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Still dead.

Hopefully third times the charm http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4628/uer5.jpg

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Pimpmasterdac

I recall there being talk/calls to consolidate the railways in the 1980/90s, either with an entirely new route much further to the (then) south of London or all via CNs tracks. Never went anywhere obviously. While it could be done, it whether CN & CP would ever agree to such a scheme. Though I bet CN & CP could care less about the effects of their lines on London, and unless there was some incentive would probably continue with the status quo. Only hope I could see would be with the major rail accidents that have occurred in the past few months if there was a national push to consolidate out of safety sake.

Adelaide would get precedent over Wharncliffe since Adelaide is still at-grade and completely blocks traffic numerous times a day. Wharncliffe is a bad bottleneck that functions poorly, but at least still functions. The 2004 Transportation Plan called on Wharncliffe underpass to be done before 2010, while now I believe it's scheduled for 2021. Wharncliffe's double whammy since both CN & CP underpasses need widening, and from what I understand underpasses are difficult to do work since the rail lines need to be kept active simultaneously while work goes on. As well Western Road needs to be widened completely to 5 lanes. Adelaide needs an overpass and its uninterrupted 4 lanes through most of the city. Both roads need these projects years ago.

Either way it’s $10s of millions that’s gonna be spent on all these structures, just because of the rail lines…



Hopefully third times the charm http://imageshack.us/a/img36/4628/uer5.jpg

Wharncliffe north of Oxford was supposed to be done by 1992, according to the 1973 London Urban Transportation Study (LUTS). The same study also recommended several scenarios for the railway lines to both bypass London, though spurs would still have existed to service some industrial areas in the east end. The proposal called for a busway or monorail (!) to replace part of the CP line. A major caveat: LUTS assumed London to have a population of 400,000 by 1991 within the then-city limits which London has not yet reached.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

Forget about the overpass. Get the stupid freight trains out of the city altogether. This isn't the 60's and 70's anymore. Building more overpasses just ensures we keep the trains in the city. London is a city of 400,000 and we have huge trains going through it. I don't know what bothers me more - the fact that we have these trains in town or the fact that no one cares at all. Imagine what could be done in that space once the trains were removed.

Agreed. Although when Canadian Forces Base London was in full swing and was still home to a full-strength infantry battalion, the train tracks that now run just south of Oxford Street and intersect Adelaide Street North made sense. That's because the tracks ran all the way to the military supply depot that existed on Highbury Avenue (and to points eastward). It made for a really convenient way for the military to get troops and materiel on trains in a hurry.

But now that the supply depot is gone, and there are no businesses in east London that need to access those tracks (apart from GM Diesel, maybe), there seems to be no need for any train tracks at all in that part of town. Why don't CN and CP rip up that line, and move it either much further north (or south)?

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

$25M for an overpass? Insane.

Yes, that is cheap. LOL. An interchange in my new home town of Edmonton (everybody miss me? ) came in at $253.7 million. And that was for three bridges and some ramps. Aerial photography here: http://goo.gl/maps/n3y2n

Still think a bridge over the CP tracks costing only $25M is insane?!

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Kokkei Mizu

Yes, that is cheap. LOL. An interchange in my new home town of Edmonton (everybody miss me? ) came in at $253.7 million. And that was for three bridges and some ramps. Aerial photography here: http://goo.gl/maps/n3y2n

Still think a bridge over the CP tracks costing only $25M is insane?!

I had a dream last night about winning lotto max and using the money to build a highway or something for London. If I need 5x the winnings just to build an interchange, well screw that I'm keeping the money!