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  #5641  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 1:36 AM
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Also, regarding an extension of the T system to the Airport, what are some opinions of possibly tolling the Ft. Pitt Tunnel and using the toll money to fund this and other transit and/or bridge projects throughout Allegheny County? I looked at Google Earth imagery, and I think it could be possible to construct an inbound-only 6-to-8 lane toll plaza as well as reconfigure the interchanges with Route 51 and US 19. The plaza would be located between Banksville Rd and the railroad trestles...

Just a thought. On one hand, that would likely create a massive bottleneck out of an already bad bottleneck (Lincoln Tunnel in New Jersey ring any bells?), but on the other hand it would be a speedy way of extending the LRT system to serve this corridor, therefore providing an alternative to the congestion.

Just another thought... You figure roughly 150k vehicles travel through the tunnels per day. At a toll of $3.50, this idea would bring in almost $200 million in tolls within one year of operation...
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  #5642  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 2:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Although, does CSX have a rail line from Philly to Pittsburgh, or does CSX own the B&O alignment.
B&O. The three main ports in their National Gateway system will be Baltimore, Hampton Roads, and Wilmington, NC:



I believe all three are gearing up for post-Panamax traffic.
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  #5643  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 9:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Also, regarding an extension of the T system to the Airport, what are some opinions of possibly tolling the Ft. Pitt Tunnel and using the toll money to fund this and other transit and/or bridge projects throughout Allegheny County? I looked at Google Earth imagery, and I think it could be possible to construct an inbound-only 6-to-8 lane toll plaza as well as reconfigure the interchanges with Route 51 and US 19. The plaza would be located between Banksville Rd and the railroad trestles...

Just a thought. On one hand, that would likely create a massive bottleneck out of an already bad bottleneck (Lincoln Tunnel in New Jersey ring any bells?), but on the other hand it would be a speedy way of extending the LRT system to serve this corridor, therefore providing an alternative to the congestion.

Just another thought... You figure roughly 150k vehicles travel through the tunnels per day. At a toll of $3.50, this idea would bring in almost $200 million in tolls within one year of operation...
I guess you want to cause traffic jams literally 12 hours a day nearly to the airport, Jonboy? Do you have any idea how bad the Parkway West inbound already is on a daily basis? Not to mention there's almost no land available for any sort of expansion along much of it, especially right near the tunnel. If the freaking ramps would be somehow reconfigured at 19/51 that would help out immensely, though. That much is agreed!

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  #5644  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Interesting article about the surge in investor buying of homes in the City:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...rghs-biggest-home-buyers-sellers-708060/

Obviously this can be a dangerous thing if it is about speculation on short-term market appreciation, but from the article that is pretty clearly not the case in the Pittsburgh market. Instead, these investors are just helping to upgrade the local housing stock (including housing for rent) to match the local growth in jobs and income.

So basically every unit these investors renovate in existing core area neighborhoods is just a substitute for a hypothetical new unit in some greenfield development, and that is a public policy win for many different reasons.

Last edited by BrianTH; Oct 18, 2013 at 11:00 AM.
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  #5645  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 11:00 AM
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So the outgoing Mayor supports historic designation for the Produce Terminal:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...nd-alternative-in-strip-district-708087/

But more important is that Buncher is continuing with the rest of its Strip development plans, while also continuing to explore alternatives for the Produce Terminal:

Quote:
A spokesman for Buncher said the company has "a lot of options" on the produce terminal and will continue to explore the possibilities. . . . "The Buncher Co. continues to have discussions with the incoming administration about the produce terminal," the spokesman said. "The fate of the produce terminal has not been decided."

Regardless of what happens with the terminal, Buncher will proceed with other aspects of the project. "The development of the remaining acreage is continuing to move forward," he said.
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  #5646  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 11:13 AM
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Awesome news, put a gun to the heads of people who want to destroy this cities history and they will back down. The city can now afford to pressure developers.
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  #5647  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 1:00 PM
DKNewYork DKNewYork is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonboy1983 View Post
Also, regarding an extension of the T system to the Airport, what are some opinions of possibly tolling the Ft. Pitt Tunnel and using the toll money to fund this and other transit and/or bridge projects throughout Allegheny County? I looked at Google Earth imagery, and I think it could be possible to construct an inbound-only 6-to-8 lane toll plaza as well as reconfigure the interchanges with Route 51 and US 19. The plaza would be located between Banksville Rd and the railroad trestles...

Just a thought. On one hand, that would likely create a massive bottleneck out of an already bad bottleneck (Lincoln Tunnel in New Jersey ring any bells?), but on the other hand it would be a speedy way of extending the LRT system to serve this corridor, therefore providing an alternative to the congestion.

Just another thought... You figure roughly 150k vehicles travel through the tunnels per day. At a toll of $3.50, this idea would bring in almost $200 million in tolls within one year of operation...
Good outside-the-box thinking but a non-starter, I suspect. As the Fort Pitt Tunnel is part of the Interstate Highway System, any toll proposal would have to be approved by Washington. Recall that a few rural Pennsylvania congressmen managed to get DC to kill PennDOT's proposal to toll I-80 to generate funds for statewide bridge repair. Any talk to toll that tunnel would create a much bigger stir, which would effectively kill it. Plus, knowing Pittsburgh, if such a toll were instituted, those paying it would complain that access to the city would not be tolled from the east and north. Maybe a better way to go would be a congestion fee, which works in London and would have worked here in Manhattan.
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  #5648  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 1:22 PM
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So the outgoing Mayor supports historic designation for the Produce Terminal:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...nd-alternative-in-strip-district-708087/

But more important is that Buncher is continuing with the rest of its Strip development plans, while also continuing to explore alternatives for the Produce Terminal:
I'm confused. The Trib article on 10/15 quoted Buncher CEO Tom Balestrieri as saying---or at least it seemed to me that he said---that the "whole project is on hold" until City Council decides on the historic designation of Produce Terminal. Yet today's PG article about Ravenstahl quotes a company spokesman who says that Buncher is moving forward with the Strip property as well as alternatives for the Terminal. Anyone have the inside scoop or an educated guess?

Edit: It just occurred to me that if Buncher is proceeding with its plans even if the Terminal is to be preserved as is, the company's argument that the entire development depends on improved vehicular access through the Terminal is completely undermined.
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  #5649  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 2:03 PM
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What Pittsburgh needs to finally solve the problem at its approach/exit tunnels (and perhaps other congested routes) is congestion pricing with electronic tolling:

http://www.etc.dot.gov/

From a technocratic perspective that is the obvious solution--you can't practically build your way out of the problem, and congestion pricing doesn't actually do much, if anything, to reduce overall traffic volumes (in part due to the fact the flow rate of congested traffic is lower than the flow rate of uncongested traffic). And since it generates revenues, you can use at least some of those revenues to upgrade local transportation alternatives, such as public transit.

The main barrier is therefore political, and even that is largely anticipatory--once a decent congestion pricing system is put in place, people tend to actually like it. The problem is that in advance, a lot of vocal people think they will hate it.
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  #5650  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 2:07 PM
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Boundaries or not, even with pretty good residential growth, it will never be Center City, but it will be a lot more than it is now, which is a lot better than even a decade ago.
No one ever said it would become Center City, that's not even possible due to geographical constraints. What I said was only from a purely statistical standpoint it could definitely match it in population density, which seems to be a good benchmark considering the vibrancy that many people create in CC.
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  #5651  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 2:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DKNewYork View Post
I'm confused. The Trib article on 10/15 quoted Buncher CEO Tom Balestrieri as saying---or at least it seemed to me that he said---that the "whole project is on hold" until City Council decides on the historic designation of Produce Terminal. Yet today's PG article about Ravenstahl quotes a company spokesman who says that Buncher is moving forward with the Strip property as well as alternatives for the Terminal. Anyone have the inside scoop or an educated guess?
This is neither an inside scoop nor particularly educated, but my guess is that Buncher is saying that actually doing something with the Produce Terminal is on hold, and perhaps that the final construction plans for the rest of the project may be determined in part by the fate of the Produce Terminal, but meanwhile they are continuing various site prep projects that don't depend on exactly what happens with the Produce Terminal.
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  #5652  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 3:09 PM
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What Pittsburgh needs to finally solve the problem at its approach/exit tunnels (and perhaps other congested routes) is congestion pricing with electronic tolling:

http://www.etc.dot.gov/

From a technocratic perspective that is the obvious solution--you can't practically build your way out of the problem, and congestion pricing doesn't actually do much, if anything, to reduce overall traffic volumes (in part due to the fact the flow rate of congested traffic is lower than the flow rate of uncongested traffic). And since it generates revenues, you can use at least some of those revenues to upgrade local transportation alternatives, such as public transit.

The main barrier is therefore political, and even that is largely anticipatory--once a decent congestion pricing system is put in place, people tend to actually like it. The problem is that in advance, a lot of vocal people think they will hate it.
I hate to say it, but there IS another good way to reduce some of the horrible traffic congestion getting into and out of Pittsburgh especially from the south, west and east (it's really not bad coming from the north). There truly does need to be a bypass around Pittsburgh for through-travelers. Something from I-79 out to Monroeville, something like that. Doesn't need to be another route into Pittsburgh itself, but right now it's a complete disaster at the Ft. Pitt and Squirrel Hill tunnels not only because of trips beginning or ending downtown but due to through-travelers as well. You damn well have to go right through downtown to get anywhere around here, and it just doesn't work right now.

Congestion-pricing without an alternate way around the city for those who's destination/origin isn't the city isn't going to work. And public transit doesn't affect those who's origin/destination isn't the city itself, either. You take away the 20-40% of cars that are just passing through downtown and you eliminate a good amount of the traffic congestion.

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  #5653  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 3:11 PM
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I'm confused. The Trib article on 10/15 quoted Buncher CEO Tom Balestrieri as saying---or at least it seemed to me that he said---that the "whole project is on hold" until City Council decides on the historic designation of Produce Terminal. Yet today's PG article about Ravenstahl quotes a company spokesman who says that Buncher is moving forward with the Strip property as well as alternatives for the Terminal. Anyone have the inside scoop or an educated guess?

Edit: It just occurred to me that if Buncher is proceeding with its plans even if the Terminal is to be preserved as is, the company's argument that the entire development depends on improved vehicular access through the Terminal is completely undermined.
No, it might just mean that they'll build at lower densities as a result. Might wind up being low-rise apartments instead of something even close to the densities that we would truly prefer for the site.

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  #5654  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:15 PM
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I hate to say it, but there IS another good way to reduce some of the horrible traffic congestion getting into and out of Pittsburgh especially from the south, west and east (it's really not bad coming from the north). There truly does need to be a bypass around Pittsburgh for through-travelers.
So ring roads and such have been tried many times, and the short version of the story is they don't work in the long run to end congestion on radial urban highways (the ones used for getting into and out of the city center).

The basic problem here is one of incentives. You put a nice highway leading into the region's most important economic center, and people are going to preferentially build up along that highway in order to use it. If there is no charge to use that highway, the number of people trying to use it at peak time will eventually exceed its maximum capacity, causing congestion. Congestion may then slow development along the radial highway, although it is possible (and common) for congestion to keep on growing as long as there are no superior and affordable alternatives to taking the highway into the center.

In other words, when you have a scarce good (more people want it than can have it), its use has to be rationed in some way. And if you don't ration use through price, it typically gets rationed by people's tolerance for delay due to congestion. This is the same basic process that led to bread lines in communist countries: give away bread for free but not enough of it, and the person who gets the bread is the person willing to wait the longest in line.

So what happens if you build more lanes, or build a ring road to divert some traffic, or so on? You might momentarily reduce congestion, but that just restores the incentive to start building up along the radial highway again. So people do that, and in not too long you are right back to bad congestion on the radial highway. And that is because intentionally or not, you have actually adopted a strategy of using congestion to ration use of your radial highways, and so you will keep getting congestion.

Two basic mistakes are being made here. First, highways are a sucky way of providing peak capacity in urban areas. That is because their peak capacity per lane is really quite low, and so the marginal cost of additional peak capacity using highways is really high in comparison to other urban transportation technologies. And that is true even when there are not a bunch of expanded tunnels and bridges you would need as well--urban land is precious, and so the cost of chewing it up for more highway lanes is inherently high.

Second, congestion is a sucky way of rationing scarce peak capacity on highways--indeed, it actually subtracts peak capacity to follow that approach.

So really, as soon as your urban highways are getting congested, you should be switching focus to technologies with much higher peak capacities per unit of cost, like passenger rail or busways, and also you should be switching to rationing the peak capacity on your highways by price rather than congestion.

As for ring roads--if there is truly an independent case to be made for them based on current needs, fine. But it is generally not going to work to rely on them to eliminate radial highway congestion, and in the real world there is almost never a current-needs case sufficient to justify the massive expense of ring roads. Instead, most of their future traffic tends to be generated by greenfield developments induced along the ring road, until they become congested too. Which is actually terrible land use policy as well as bad transportation policy, although as a matter of pure coincidence a lot of well-connected highway contractors and greenfield developers get very wealthy in the process.

Incidentally, this is why building transit in parallel ALSO doesn't work to eliminate congestion, unless you add congestion pricing as part of the policy. New transit may divert some people initially and relieve congestion for a short time--yeah!--but then people see the uncongested highway and just start piling in again until the highway becomes congested again. You can keep going through scenarios like this, and the same end result will occur: if your only method for rationing your urban highways is congestion, then congestion you will get. On the other hand, unlike with ring roads, in many U.S. cities there are in fact extremely compelling current-needs cases to be made for expanding and improving transit which do not rely on congestion relief.

Anyway, the good news is that if you have an economically important reason to be passing by but not actually into the city center, and an economically important reason to do that at peak times rather than off-peak, then you should also have the means to pay the congestion price. That could be time-sensitive freight, or it could be a commuter who has chosen to live on the other side of town from their job, or so on.

Meanwhile, the people who will shift onto public transit due to the congestion price (assuming that transit is available) likely will be the people trying to get into and out of the center specifically at peak times, which is precisely what you want to see--those people should be using alternative technologies for the reasons given above. Similarly, freight and people will shift to off-peak travel when that is not a big problem for them, which is again precisely the behavior you want to incentivize.

Note, though, the immediate shift to alternatives does not have to be very high at all. Again, that is because the peak capacity of a congested highway is actually lower than the peak capacity of an uncongested highway. So in fact in theory, if you can keep congestion from starting you can actually have more, not less, people using the highway at peak times, meaning there would be no immediate need for a shift at all. The key is to find a way to stop more people from piling in at that point such that congestion restarts, which is a matter of getting your congestion pricing just right.

But to be sure, even congestion pricing on existing highways taken alone is a short term solution--eventually a growing population is going to need more peak transportation capacity (barring something like a true revolution in remote work, or maybe driverless cars, or so on). But again, your focus at that point should be adding peak capacity through better technologies for the problem at hand. And even if you do build more highway capacity, that should be congestion priced as well.

Honestly, the idea of a free urban radial highway is just an inherently bad one, and if we had started out with congestion pricing of urban highways as the default in the United States (as paying train and bus fares is the default) people would rightly think you were crazy if you suggested making them free instead. But because they have largely been free as a matter of historic practice, people keep trying to look for another way around the very predictable problems that arise from refusing to price-ration. It just doesn't exist.

Last edited by BrianTH; Oct 18, 2013 at 4:33 PM.
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  #5655  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:23 PM
Wiz Khalifa Wiz Khalifa is offline
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There is a relatively inexpensive fix that would alleviate a lot of traffic heading eastbound through the tunnel. If PennDOT would continue the third lane of traffic past the top of Greentree hill exit down to the runaway truck ramp (this would require rebuilding the Greentree road overpass), then having that extra lane become a flyover ramp that completely bypasses the parkway/19/51 interchange, and then hooks up to 51 north towards the West End bridge.

The traffic that would normally be heading north across the Ft. Duquesne bridge would be able to bypass the tunnel entirely and take the West end bridge instead. This would remove a large number of the cars trying to queue up before the tunnel.
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  #5656  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:29 PM
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No, it might just mean that they'll build at lower densities as a result. Might wind up being low-rise apartments instead of something even close to the densities that we would truly prefer for the site.
That is a serious concern, although it could also be easily overblown.

The basic reason why some sort of breaking up of the current barrier would be helpful is that it would make it easier for the apartment residents to get to the core of the Strip. That would make the units somewhat more marketable, which means you should be able to justify building more of them at any given marginal cost.

But ultimately that is really a secondary sort of consideration. The main reason units in the Strip will be marketable is that people with jobs in Downtown and the East End would find that a convenient place to live. Having to walk around the ends of the Produce Terminal to get to the core of the Strip probably isn't going to make that much of a difference for most people in such a situation.

So my guess is by far the main determinant of how many units Buncher ends up wanting to build will be current and projected rental market conditions for the Greater Downtown area at the time they make their decision.
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  #5657  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:29 PM
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http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...-sunday-from-its-pittsburgh-nest-708115/


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The giant rubber duck will fly Sunday from its Pittsburgh nest

October 18, 2013 12:16 pm

By Elizabeth Bloom / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
After hatching on Sept. 27, the duck is ready to leave the nest.

The 40-foot rubber duck, the brainbird of Swedish Florentijn Hofman that has been floating in the Allegheny River just off of Point State Park the past few weeks, will fly out of town at 11 p.m. Sunday, the Pittsburgh Cultural Trust said this morning.

Despite petitions to keep the duck here, the trust is sticking with its initial plan to remove the bird, coinciding with the Steelers vs. Ravens game Sunday at Heinz Field. At that point, the duck will be taken to an undisclosed location, cleaned, dried and put in storage at a warehouse in the South Side.

"It came in like a lion, let's let it go like a lamb," said Paul Organisak, vice president of programming for the Pittsburgh Cultural Trust.

The hype has far exceeded the Cultural Trust's expectations. More than a million people have visited the duck, according to estimates from the park and local hotels. That makes it the highest attended event in the trust's history, according to Mr. Organisak. Those numbers may increase after this final weekend, and don't even include those who viewed the bird from fowl territory, such as Mount Washington or the North Side.

Visitors from across the country and Canada have come to Pittsburgh to see the duck shining like a beacon on Pittsburgh's water. The vast majority of viewers were local, though, an estimated 95 percent, said Craig Davis, president and CEO of Visit Pittsburgh.

It is also worth its weight in duck pate, having generated tens of millions of dollars for the economy

...
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  #5658  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:36 PM
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The festival atmosphere around the duck is amazing. They are probably smart to pack it up for now, but I think it would be great if it became an annual attraction, at least for a limited time, say associated with the regatta.
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  #5659  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:37 PM
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A good Pgh bypass that would be an extension of the airport toll rd which is already planned to go to I-79, have it go further east to the turnpike. This may be similar to the Southern beltway spur that went east, I don't recall the actual path, but it would allow regional flow and give the southern South Hills better access to the airport or the turnpike as well as areas south of Monroeville.
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  #5660  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2013, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by glowrock View Post
I hate to say it, but there IS another good way to reduce some of the horrible traffic congestion getting into and out of Pittsburgh especially from the south, west and east (it's really not bad coming from the north). There truly does need to be a bypass around Pittsburgh for through-travelers. Something from I-79 out to Monroeville, something like that. Doesn't need to be another route into Pittsburgh itself, but right now it's a complete disaster at the Ft. Pitt and Squirrel Hill tunnels not only because of trips beginning or ending downtown but due to through-travelers as well. You damn well have to go right through downtown to get anywhere around here, and it just doesn't work right now.
...

Aaron (Glowrock)
All due respect but that's just crazy. How would that even be possible? Where would it run? Who's towns and neighborhoods would get bulldozed for it to happen? By the time that PENDOT could get all of the funding and right-of-ways secured we'd all be dead and our grandchildren would be driving flying cars. The grand age of highway building in the US is gone is isn't coming back.
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