PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by chucka

Here are some of the buildings that the August Wilson Center replaced. Two buildings were gone by the time I took these pictures.

I forgot that those were some pretty decent buildings... Probably today in Pgh, those would've been fought for a lot harder than even a couple years ago.

[photoLith]

That's just plain stupid. All destroyed for a pos building that is failing.

[chucka]

I remember reading that the original intention was to preserve the historic facades and integrate them into the design. Budget cutbacks, however, eliminated that aspect. Additionally, an early proposal called for condos/apartments above the center. Again, because of a funding shortage, that plan was thrown out.

Originally Posted by photoLith

That's just plain stupid. All destroyed for a pos building that is failing.

[popstar]

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/developers-plan-30m-hazelwood-makeover-706824/

[BrianTH]

The Spahr Building is definitely a cool one--I couldn't find a great angle on Google Streetview but here it is:

http://goo.gl/maps/L4t06

Travelling further west on Second Avenue there are a few more cool old structures, but mostly a lot of vacant lots. You could definitely do a fun mix of old and new there.

This was also interesting news:

Also on Thursday, the board is expected to vote on a proposal to sell 1.6 acres of land at the Pittsburgh Technology Center in South Oakland to Hotel d2 Services LLC for $1.57 million for construction of a 135-room extended stay hotel. Development costs are estimated at $16.5 million. The URA has been trying to build a hotel at the site since 2007.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by photoLith

That's just plain stupid. All destroyed for a pos building that is failing.

I disagree that it's a POS building, quite frankly. Hopefully someone comes in (Carnegie Museum, perhaps?) that can reuse/repurpose the current building into something that is more visited and more widely-used than the August Wilson Center is at this time. I'm not going to comment on what used to be there because, unfortunately, that was in the past and happened before I lived here in town, but I do believe that this building can a great gallery/small theatre space for the Golden Triangle. I like a touch of modern amongst the large number of historic structures in the area!

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

If I had a magic wand and could bring the old buildings back I would do that, but since I don't, I agree the question is how to move forward from here in the most productive way possible.

That said, I certainly think there are lessons to be learned, such as for the Point Park Playhouse issue.

[BrianTH]

No details as of my writing this, but apparently Rivers is looking at building a dedicated casino hotel:

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/4861232-74/casino-hotel-rivers#axzz2hNaTXcvv

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

No details as of my writing this, but apparently Rivers is looking at building a dedicated casino hotel:

http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/4861232-74/casino-hotel-rivers#axzz2hNaTXcvv

It will be interesting to find out where they plan to build it. I wish they would have put one where the parking structure is now and included a small shopping area in its lower level.

Atlantic City and Niagara Falls have casino-hotels like that, and they're nice.

I will say this. What ever they put there, I hope it's going to be bigger than 120 or 130-some rooms. Is there any casino with an adjacent hotel that has fewer than 200 or so rooms? The Fallsview Casino Resort has over 300 rooms; nevermind how many rooms the Atlantic City casino hotels all have! Also, the Fallsview has a 2-level retail complex at its base with direct access into the casino. Many of the resorts in Atlantic City have the same thing. Wheeling Island, however, doesn't seem to have a retail complex, yet I guess it does ok. Coming back to the Rivers, I guess it would be something else to consider as another draw to the Northside.

Does anyone know if there is any talk of revamping the Chateau neighborhood? I know it's primarily all industrial use, but does the city want to put mixed use development there as it reclaims/revamps waterfront property? I envision a strip of development along the waterfront there starting from the Rivers and extending at least up to the Brunots Island RR bridge...

[Steel City Scotty]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

Does anyone know if there is any talk of revamping the Chateau neighborhood? I know it's primarily all industrial use, but does the city want to put mixed use development there as it reclaims/revamps waterfront property? I envision a strip of development along the waterfront there starting from the Rivers and extending at least up to the Brunots Island RR bridge...

I'd love to see the Chateau neighborhood developed a bit more. If I recall correctly, I believe it's the least populated neighborhood of the 90 within the city limits. Something like less than 50 people live there...

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by photoLith

That's just plain stupid. All destroyed for a pos building that is failing.

Why do you hate black people?

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Steel City Scotty

I'd love to see the Chateau neighborhood developed a bit more. If I recall correctly, I believe it's the least populated neighborhood of the 90 within the city limits. Something like less than 50 people live there...

Right. As I said earlier, it's mostly light industrial. I was looking at other cities that have a nice mix of light industrial/warehouse use mixed with residential/retail/commercial. However, considering there's a marina along the Ohio there and residential use across the freeway, is light industrial the best use of the land? I guess that use could be moved elsewhere in the city, but where?

In any event, what I think should happen first is reconstruct Route 65 as a surface boulevard or parkway that incorporates both Chateau Street and Beaver Avenue as well as an extension of the light rail system down a large central grass median.

I looked at Google Earth street view, and it looks like whatever is left standing along Chateau Street is pretty much abandoned, and I'm not sure if the buildings are salvageable or not (they look sound, but what do I know; I'm no structural engineer or a building inspector). Anyway, I envision a strip of buildings that sort of mimics what once stood there. On the Beaver Avenue side (which I have yet tor work on), I see some taller residential buildings with ground-level retail and office use...

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

It will be interesting to find out where they plan to build it. I wish they would have put one where the parking structure is now and included a small shopping area in its lower level.

It would be really nice if they could build it so it envelops the hulking, concrete awfulness of the casino parking garage.

[Evergrey]

I was just driving around the Casino complex the other day... what a waste of riverfront real estate. We gave that land over to just about the most non-urban type of entity possible. It's the type of desperation development I hope we are moving away from in the future now that we seem to have more confidence as a city.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

I was just driving around the Casino complex the other day... what a waste of riverfront real estate. We gave that land over to just about the most non-urban type of entity possible. It's the type of desperation development I hope we are moving away from in the future now that we seem to have more confidence as a city.

I can honestly think of far bigger wastes of real estate along on riverfront(s) in and near downtown than the casino. Not saying that Rivers is the BEST use of riverfront space, mind you, but the industrial wasteland along Carson from Station Square to around 10th St. is pretty bad, not to mention the enormous Buncher warehouse/office building on West Carson. Let's see, the huge swath of surface lots near the Produce Terminal, the old concrete plant over by the Birmingham Bridge... Several others as well. I guess I'm the only one who doesn't mind Rivers in its current location, honestly. Would have been better if the garage wasn't so huge with respect to the rest of the building, but the building itself isn't really bad at all. It IS a casino, after all. A huge garage is essential for a development like that. Not to mention it gets heavily used during Steelers and Pirates games as well as during special events, concerts and the like. Could they have designed the garage better? Sure, no doubt about it. Hopefully they can cover some of the garage up with the planned hotel.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Like everyone I hate the casino parking garage, and like almost all casinos, it is deliberately designed to have very limited interaction with its surroundings, which is bad for urban fabric.

That said, it is a real money machine for the region (in a morally questionable way, but still), and it would probably have taken a good long while for better development to reach that area, even assuming a totally different North Shore strategy.

So in my mind it isn't close to being the worst recent offender in terms of land use, although of course that is pretty faint praise.

[Minivan Werner]

Are they going to build a hotel at the casino? Always wondered why there wasn't one.. Every other design proposed included an attached hotel and similar developments in other cities do too. I mean, the closest hotel right now is like 5 blocks away. And it's not like there isn't a demand for hotels in the city, they're springing up all over the place. A 10+ story one could do a lot in terms of hiding the hideous garage, not to mention eliminating some of the surface parking as well.

[Steel City Scotty]

I'd love to see a hotel built attached to the casino, and I hope it happens in the not-too-distant future.

That said, I know some of my friends at Visit Pittsburgh have been hoping for a hotel attached to the convention center for quite sometime, and so far, that hasn't happened...

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

I was just driving around the Casino complex the other day... what a waste of riverfront real estate. We gave that land over to just about the most non-urban type of entity possible. It's the type of desperation development I hope we are moving away from in the future now that we seem to have more confidence as a city.

Yeah, it's pretty bad down there... completely walls off the riverfront. The street network is also ridiculous... at one point unnaturally funneling you into the garage even if you have no intention of going to the casino.

I'm not a fan of going to casinos, but I generally don't mind them on waterfront land... if they are designed in a properly-integrated way, that is... which the Rivers Casino is not.

Originally Posted by glowrock

I can honestly think of far bigger wastes of real estate along on riverfront(s) in and near downtown than the casino. Not saying that Rivers is the BEST use of riverfront space, mind you, but the industrial wasteland along Carson from Station Square to around 10th St. is pretty bad, not to mention the enormous Buncher warehouse/office building on West Carson. Let's see, the huge swath of surface lots near the Produce Terminal, the old concrete plant over by the Birmingham Bridge... Several others as well. ...

Aaron (Glowrock)

The casino is a new development though. I think that's the difference. It was a waste of a great piece of property on a new use that is not consistent with modern-day principles good urban or waterfront design.

The southside "industrial wasteland" is not a wasteland at all, but rather a very active industrial/light industrial zone along with commercial and office presence. It certainly isn't ideal for riverfront property in present day Pittsburgh, but its present use is what the land has been used for more than a century.

I certainly agree with all the examples you mention, glowrock. I just think there is a difference since those other things on riverfront land have existed there (in some cases for a very long time). I see these places as prime sites for great waterfront redevelopment... whereas the casino land WAS a prime site before it was recently built, and thus squandering the opportunity.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by Private 🞵🞵🞵🞵

Yeah, it's pretty bad down there... completely walls off the riverfront. The street network is also ridiculous... at one point unnaturally funneling you into the garage even if you have no intention of going to the casino.

I'm not a fan of going to casinos, but I generally don't mind them on waterfront land... if they are designed in a properly-integrated way, that is... which the Rivers Casino is not.



The casino is a new development though. I think that's the difference. It was a waste of a great piece of property on a new use that is not consistent with modern-day principles good urban or waterfront design.

The southside "industrial wasteland" is not a wasteland at all, but rather a very active industrial/light industrial zone along with commercial and office presence. It certainly isn't ideal for riverfront property in present day Pittsburgh, but its present use is what the land has been used for more than a century.

I certainly agree with all the examples you mention, glowrock. I just think there is a difference since those other things on riverfront land have existed there (in some cases for a very long time). I see these places as prime sites for great waterfront redevelopment... whereas the casino land WAS a prime site before it was recently built, and thus squandering the opportunity.

Your points are all well-taken, Private 🞵🞵🞵🞵. That being said, if the casino had not been built there, that land would have likely been lying around vacant for who knows how many years. Or even worse, it would have perhaps wound up as a three-story office building with a Toby Keith's as part of the ground-level retail!

And yes, the road system over there is a nightmare. In fact I think it's pretty terrible throughout much of the North Shore, to be honest. Of course when you've got the casino, Heinz Field, Stage AE, the Carnegie Science Center, the elevated part of 279, ramps from the West End Bridge/279/65, etc., I think a convoluted road network was pretty much bound to happen.


Aaron (Glowrock)