Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

So dig up and develop another huge portion of what's left of the commons? Count me among the NIMBYs. You may as well suggest putting it in the middle of Point Pleasant Park.

I've always been a bit puzzled about people who want to leave the Commons as-is. Right now it is mostly a mix of ageing, ad hoc sports infrastructure. A big chunk of it is just empty grass or baseball diamonds. This is nice for some uses but it seems like a tough sell to me to say that it's better to have 9 baseball diamonds vs. 5 baseball diamonds or 300 acres vs. 200 acres of grass or whatever instead of a stadium that would be used by tens of thousands of people multiple times per year.

Point Pleasant is a different animal; it's largely a wilderness park with some historic buildings, and people go there to walk around in a natural environment. The fact that Halifax has a park like that actually suggests to me that it is better to use the Commons for all the other stuff that wouldn't work as well in Point Pleasant, like a stadium.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

So dig up and develop another huge portion of what's left of the commons? Count me among the NIMBYs. You may as well suggest putting it in the middle of Point Pleasant Park.

Point Pleasant Park is out of context and too far out of the way. It is the end of the South End. It is a nature park that doesn't have the sports recreational amenities that have slowly been accumulating on the Halifax Commons.

Should we remove the skate park, in favour of empty fields?
...remove the pool?
...remove the children's playground?
...remove the oval?

The Halifax Commons is somewhat under-used, wouldn't you agree? What would a stadium be destroying?

If it was built near the Windsor Park area in the North End, that would also have central benefits (as well as being near main traffic routes, such as the MacKay Bridge and the Bedford Highway) -- even though it's further away from the stadium's main source of fuel (college students).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

If it was built near the Windsor Park area in the North End, that would also have central benefits (as well as being near main traffic routes, such as the MacKay Bridge and the Bedford Highway) -- even though it's further away from the stadium's main source of fuel (college students).

One other nice thing about the Commons is that there is already a precedent for holding large events there.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

If it was built near the Windsor Park area in the North End, that would also have central benefits (as well as being near main traffic routes, such as the MacKay Bridge and the Bedford Highway) -- even though it's further away from the stadium's main source of fuel (college students).

As long as it's traffic/transit accessible, I really don't think it matters that a stadium is super-downtown. Windsor Park would be fine. I'm not sure why proximity to college students is important, either—are there any big civic stadiums that share a vicinity with universities in this country?

I'm not sure about the Commons, myself. True, a lot of it is just empty space, but then, so is Central Park's Great Lawn. The Commons are, well, a “commons”--a gathering/event space, and even if it's under-used, that will slowly change as the city grows and densifies around it. It's something to be held in trust for the future, and a park of its centrality and size is incredibly rare for a Canadian city. Actually, I can't think of any analogous parks. Stanley Park maybe, but that would be more likeo Point Pleasant (geez: Halifax is really blessed with great park/recreational space.)

An open-roof would also present a huge noise problem for the hundreds of residences directly abutting the park.

My vote would be for a partial redevelopment of that whole unfortunate car-dealership district between Kempt-Windsor-Young. Of course, that area also has amazing potential as an area that could slowly evolve as an extension of the North End, into a whole new blank-slate neighbourhood. Which is actually more exciting.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

One other nice thing about the Commons is that there is already a precedent for holding large events there.

This is true.

Just as we're seeing in the North End with the string of 6 to 8-storey residential developments that are apparently in response, at least in part, to shipbuilding, I can only imagine what a stadium on the Commons would do for that area's growth.

The Atlantica Hotel would have reason to renovate immediately.
I would like to see redevelopments on land that is currently occupied by single-family houses. There's so much potential!

There are already midrise towers bordering much of the Commons. This height wouldn't at all be shocking. The additional density means the city can afford to better maintain the old sports infrastructure and green space on the Commons. It needs to be re-landscaped as well.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

As long as it's traffic/transit accessible, I really don't think it matters that a stadium is super-downtown. Windsor Park would be fine. I'm not sure why proximity to college students is important, either—are there any big civic stadiums that share a vicinity with universities in this country?

I'm not sure about the Commons, myself. True, a lot of it is just empty space, but then, so is Central Park's Great Lawn. The Commons are, well, a “commons”--a gathering/event space, and even if it's under-used, that will slowly change as the city grows and densifies around it. It's something to be held in trust for the future, and a park of its centrality and size is incredibly rare for a Canadian city. Actually, I can't think of any analogous parks. Stanley Park maybe, but that would be more likeo Point Pleasant (geez: Halifax is really blessed with great park/recreational space.)

An open-roof would also present a huge noise problem for the hundreds of residences directly abutting the park.

My vote would be for a partial redevelopment of that whole unfortunate car-dealership district between Kempt-Windsor-Young. Of course, that area also has amazing potential as an area that could slowly evolve as an extension of the North End, into a whole new blank-slate neighbourhood. Which is actually more exciting.

Noise problem? Maybe. Do residents complain when there are concerts on the Commons?

A Commons stadium wouldn't necessarily be shared with any of the universities, but it is within walking distance of them, as well as the downtown with all those restaurants and hotels, theatres, casino and waterfront, etc...

I would approve of a North End stadium too, but it's far removed from what's established in the downtown.

I'm excited about the Kempt Rd area. I want to build tall there....as in 40+ storeys! 50+! Build as high as we can go. Transform this old warehouse scene into a high-density urban beauty. It's big city time.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

The Atlantica Hotel would have reason to renovate immediately.
I would like to see redevelopments on land that is currently occupied by single-family houses. There's so much potential!

I posted something about that in another thread, but if you're referring to these kinds of streetscapes, I'm unsure where the idea comes from (which I've heard a lot of people talk about) that they're going to be significantly redeveloped. For the most part, they're zoned R-2, which limits development to duplexes and townhouses.

But regardless of zoning, the way urban redevelopment/gentrification has occurred everywhere from brownstone Brooklyn to Victorian Toronto to, indeed, saltbox Halifax, is increasing property values and increasing desirability of the old housing stock. I really believe that you can count on these streets being basically identical in 50 years. Vacant lots will be filled in, the lower-quality buildings will be torn down, but it's not like it's going to be a sea of midrise in a few decades.

There was a time when that was exactly what happened, of course—see Vancouver's West End, or the Beltline in Calgary. But that's not really the way it works now, if only because those houses aren't landlord slums anymore, but increasingly are occupied by young gentrifiers who are moving in, renovating, and have no intention of leaving. Just look at Maynard or Bauer just north of Cogswell—lots of new investment there, but all in the form of renovation of the old housing stock.

And that's good. Look what Vancouver planner Brent Toderian tweeted when in town for the CanU5 conference last week.

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuz

So dig up and develop another huge portion of what's left of the commons? Count me among the NIMBYs. You may as well suggest putting it in the middle of Point Pleasant Park.

Youre not the only NIMBY in this case. Count me among them too.

The commons is a pretty rare and "precious" in a modern city. For all the talk of going "green" in this province, paving over the largest piece of greenspace in halifax is crazy. I think it gives more back in its current form year round than a "seasional" stadium ever will (and Im pro-stadium). Frankly I dont even think the Oval should have been built there.

I mean, why no just put it on the Public Gardens land, not like the swans will mind!

To me, Shannon Park is the perfect place. It has great potential. Harbour access for ferries. Bridge access. Close to the Trans Canada for out of towners.

It could be a nice little community there. Boardwalk or trails connecting downtown Dmouth and Burnside. Maybe a small park.
Plus we'd get rid of the rat (and asbestos?) infested slum that currently is on that space. It really is pretty ugly in it's current form.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by scooby074

I mean, why no just put it on the Public Gardens land, not like the swans will mind!

Surprisingly, there was at one time an indoor skating rink on the Public Gardens (built back in the 1860's, it was possibly the first indoor skating rink in Canada). Here is a screen capture from an image on the NS Archives.

(source: http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/Notman/archives.asp?ID=406 )


Also, there were stands set up at the Wanderers Grounds for baseball (this would have been around 1931, based on other similar photos)

(source: http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/Connors/archives.asp?ID=47 )

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by scooby074

Youre not the only NIMBY in this case. Count me among them too.

The commons is a pretty rare and "precious" in a modern city. For all the talk of going "green" in this province, paving over the largest piece of greenspace in halifax is crazy.

And paving over a very modest portion of the largest piece of greenspace in Halifax would be more reasonable, eh?

All the green talk is great. This stadium should aim to be very energy efficient. Since it is centrally located on the peninsula, the visitors who would arguably fill the stadium's seats most frequently (college students) would be able to walk. Can't get much greener that that!

The walkability of our downtown is something upon which we should be building. We're doing the city a great disservice by sprawling large investments of infrastructure that could very easily be built near the core.

Originally Posted by scooby074

I think it gives more back in its current form year round than a "seasional" stadium ever will (and Im pro-stadium). Frankly I dont even think the Oval should have been built there.

I mean, why no just put it on the Public Gardens land, not like the swans will mind!

Although I sense your sarcasm: Is the field-abundant Commons more important/utilised than one of Canada's last surviving Victorian gardens?

Originally Posted by scooby074

To me, Shannon Park is the perfect place. It has great potential. Harbour access for ferries. Bridge access. Close to the Trans Canada for out of towners.

Out of towners are not going to purchase tickets as profusely as people inside Halifax. Although Shannon Park has potential, it is far less perfect than a peninsular location.

Originally Posted by scooby074

It could be a nice little community there. Boardwalk or trails connecting downtown Dmouth and Burnside. Maybe a small park.
Plus we'd get rid of the rat (and asbestos?) infested slum that currently is on that space. It really is pretty ugly in it's current form.

We're still trying to build a decent community downtown. The more jobs we can create in the core, the more land we can fill and redevelop, the more tax revenues we can generate, the better off the entire HRM is.

Is the empty space of the Halifax Commons rare for modern cities because other cities would have better used the space by now? Even *if* a stadium was built on a small portion of the Commons, there are still going to be empty baseball diamonds and walking trails.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

But regardless of zoning, the way urban redevelopment/gentrification has occurred everywhere from brownstone Brooklyn to Victorian Toronto to, indeed, saltbox Halifax, is increasing property values and increasing desirability of the old housing stock. I really believe that you can count on these streets being basically identical in 50 years. Vacant lots will be filled in, the lower-quality buildings will be torn down, but it's not like it's going to be a sea of midrise in a few decades.

There was a time when that was exactly what happened, of course—see Vancouver's West End, or the Beltline in Calgary. But that's not really the way it works now, if only because those houses aren't landlord slums anymore, but increasingly are occupied by young gentrifiers who are moving in, renovating, and have no intention of leaving.

The demand will translate into, perhaps, re-zoning and homeowners being bought out. People don't have intentions of leaving until they're shown an attractive monetary offer.

I wouldn't expect a sea of midrises overnight (and for some areas, perhaps never).

Originally Posted by Drybrain

And that's good. Look what Vancouver planner Brent Toderian tweeted when in town for the CanU5 conference last week.

Can we not pick and choose? I can understand the desire to maintain some old stock -- but it doesn't do much for density.

[pchipman]

I would be nice to replace these:
http://goo.gl/maps/GfS1O
Otherwise, I would be a shame to lose many other single family homes in that neighborhood.

I feel like a stadium on the commons would occupy the majority of remaining space. Although I am in favour of a reworking of the commons to make it more accessible and more widely used, I think there are other places on the peninsula where the stadium would have a more positive effect. The DND lots near the forum would be ideal, in my opinion.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

The demand will translate into, perhaps, re-zoning and homeowners being bought out. People don't have intentions of leaving until they're shown an attractive monetary offer.

I wouldn't expect a sea of midrises overnight (and for some areas, perhaps never).

Can we not pick and choose? I can understand the desire to maintain some old stock -- but it doesn't do much for density.

I think to some degree we'll have to pick and choose as the more obviously develop-able spots get filled up. And that'll be a fight, because people always oppose rezoning, even for little things like basement apartments. But I think that's years and years away.

And I honestly don't imagine most people are waiting to be bought out--people want houses, close to downtown. They buy them to live in, raise families in, etc... these are neighbourhoods where people are buying houses for the long-haul, and those houses are Halifax's old vernacular housing stock, just like northeastern U.S. rowhouses or NYC brownstones or Toronto Victorians or Montreal greystones. Central stock like that has become incredibly sought after. That's why a place like Cabbagetown or the Annex or the Plateau still have detached houses and townhouses, even as high-rises are going up on every available lot nearby. It still works, because these pre-car neighbourhoods are built to a good density already.

Besides, buying them out would mean offering above-market value for a parcel of at least three or four properties, next to one another. You're closing in on two million, at least, plus demolition costs, just to put up a mid-rise. Financials don't seem to be there, plus the logistics of convincing adjacent homeowners to sell.

It did happen a while ago in Toronto, where half a block of a midtown street was bought up over several years and demolished for a condo. It made news for months because it was such a strange occurrence.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Besides, buying them out would mean offering above-market value for a parcel of at least three or four properties, next to one another. You're closing in on two million, at least, plus demolition costs, just to put up a mid-rise. Financials don't seem to be there, plus the logistics of convincing adjacent homeowners to sell.

I wonder how much convincing proximal homeowners would need with the inflation of their property taxes concurrently with a stagnation in wages versus a more expensive cost of living (which is occurring now). Rare events, like the Torontonian example you provided, may become more common?

The well-established residential neighbourhoods we're currently discussing aren't really in the redevelopment crosshairs as much as Quinpool and Robie are. A stadium located on the Commons would re-energise demand.

The height we see for 3065 Robie is something I'd like to see more of.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I wonder how much convincing proximal homeowners would need with the inflation of their property taxes concurrently with a stagnation in wages versus a more expensive cost of living (which is occurring now). Rare events, like the Torontonian example you provided, may become more common?

The well-established residential neighbourhoods we're currently discussing aren't really in the redevelopment crosshairs as much as Quinpool and Robie are. A stadium located on the Commons would re-energise demand.

The height we see for 3065 Robie is something I'd like to see more of.

I think in the financial environment you mention, anyone with a centrally located house is going to hold on to it for dear life. Few real-estate purchases could be as secure.

I'd hate to see Robie redeveloped in a heavy way, regardless--it's a gorgeous street. Quinpool could definitely use some more density though. (There's some picking and choosing.)

All this talk actually has me wondering if a stadium would actually be good for residential demand, though. A Commons stadium would basically mean anyone living on Robie would have a ten-thousand-plus capacity entertainment facility right across the street. If I were in the market for a house, I wouldn't even consider that. There might be some people who'd be excited about having a stadium across the street, but I bet they'd be in the minority. There's a reason most stadiums are built in crappy neighbourhoods, or on brownfield lands. (Even urban stadiums, like Rogers Centre and BC Place, were generally built in those locations when they were disused industrial lands, and the development that followed tended to be high-rise and transitory.)

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

All this talk actually has me wondering if a stadium would actually be good for residential demand, though. A Commons stadium would basically mean anyone living on Robie would have a ten-thousand-plus capacity entertainment facility right across the street. If I were in the market for a house, I wouldn't even consider that. There might be some people who'd be excited about having a stadium across the street, but I bet they'd be in the minority. There's a reason most stadiums are built in crappy neighbourhoods, or on brownfield lands. (Even urban stadiums, like Rogers Centre and BC Place, were generally built in those locations when they were disused industrial lands, and the development that followed tended to be high-rise and transitory.)

(So, the Kempt Rd. area it is!)

I've been so pleased with the downtown's progress, a big part of me doesn't want to see that let up anytime soon in favour of outward development.

As far as residential demand via a stadium -- only indirectly, after the boost of retail/restaurant/hotel investments. Residential would naturally follow, especially since there seems to be a push for mixed use projects.

[W.Sobchak]

The forum-civic centre lands are where I always see a stadium when I drive down Windsor.

[teddifax]

Originally Posted by W.Sobchak

The forum-civic centre lands are where I always see a stadium when I drive down Windsor.

Is there enough room to build it there? Too bad the postal sorting station went where it did years ago. That area used to be part of the forum lands, used for harness racing and the old Atlantic Winter Fair.

[ILoveHalifax]

I believe it has already been determined that the forum site is not large enough, and the DND site at Young and Windsor is not available.

[cjones2451]

Not being from NS, I am not sure of the issues, but what does a Liberal Gov't mean for getting a stadium in Halifax?