PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

By the way, I wouldn't hold my breath on that Iron City Brewery project:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/bl...nceville-corp-pulls-out-of.html?page=all

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by AaronPGH

Not quite sure what my feelings are on this bus plan. It's a little scary, honestly.

Could be great, could be a disaster. I think the key would likely be committing to smart investments to speed up the buses, including things like off-bus fare collection and dedicated lanes.

[Found5dollar]

I have been thinking about the busway in down town alot lately. Does anyone know how wide the one lane train tunnel that is no longer used between Steel Plaza and Penn station, and is there a turn around located at the end of it? Could they just ad paving, keep the tracks, and send buses down through the tunnel? That way there could be an official connection between the T system and the east busway, which would alow in the future for the whole east busway to become a closed fare system with the downtown t-stops. This would greatly reduce time it takes to load and unload the buses at each stop.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Found5dollar

Does anyone know how wide the one lane train tunnel that is no longer used between Steel Plaza and Penn station, and is there a turn around located at the end of it?

I don't know about width, but I believe past the platform at Steel Plaza it just merges with the tracks heading toward First Avenue. So I don't think you could do bus service terminating there.

My masterplan for the East Busway would be to have it continue on dedicated lanes down Liberty and Stanwix, using stations with off-bus fare collection. The main transfer to the T could be at Gateway Station. From Stanwix it could either loop back along BoA and a final leg back to Penn Station TBD, or it could continue on a new bridge over the Mon to join up with an extended West Busway. I know that non-grade-separated lanes are less than ideal, but Downtown is small enough that I think having to use that approach isn't a huge problem.

Edit: I think the information here confirms what happens with "Track 3" (from Penn Station) at Steel Plaza:

http://pghbridges.com/pittsburghE/0585-4477/substeelplaza.htm

Edit #2: I haven't really thought this through, but if there was a way to turn the tunnel from Fourth Avenue to Steel Plaza into combined LRT/bus, continuing on to Penn Station, then maybe that is the solution--buses could go down Liberty, Stanwix, BoA, get into this tunnel, then merge back onto the Busway at Penn Station.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by photoLith

The august Wilson center for African Americans or is facing foreclosure and may shut down. Personally I think that building could be used for much better uses like retail and bars. It's always dead and the building is quite ugly IMO.

This is quite possibly the worst development in Downtown Pittsburgh in the past 10 years or so. No plan for long-term sustainability... just wishing and hoping. They knocked down a historic block of buildings for this lifeless monstrosity that totally kills the street-level vibrancy of that section of Liberty.

I was actually gonna talk about this about a week ago... but I lost the photos of the historic buildings I had... it's very difficult to find any photos online even though they were knocked down less than 10 years ago... one of them was called the Zimmerman Building.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by photoLith

The august Wilson center for African Americans or is facing foreclosure and may shut down. Personally I think that building could be used for much better uses like retail and bars. It's always dead and the building is quite ugly IMO.

Granted, it's a plain and unexceptional building from the outside. But it works very well---not that anyone would notice since is so infrequently crowded. The galleries and theatre were beautifully designed. But the building should never have been built. It's too large for what its supporters can fund and maintain. I hear that the Carnegie has been approached to be the white knight, which might be a good idea. The Museum of Art has periodically sought a downtown venue and with the Carnegie's support, the Wilson Center could possibly survive in some form. Further, CMOA is the repository of the Teenie Harris archive, a collection of photographs taken exclusively in the Hill District in the 20s through the 50s. The photographs never seem to be on display but having them showcased in an African-American satellite museum seems very appropriate. Ironically, way back when the Carnegie apparently offered free space to the African-American center when it was just getting on its feet, but the offer was refused as they wanted their own building. Bad call.

I doubt it will be converted to retail or food and beverage. I would expect some cultural institution to come to its rescue. But it would be great if the Liberty Avenue streetscape could be enlivened a bit with a restaurant/bar/coffee shop.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by DKNewYork

Granted, it's a plain and unexceptional building from the outside. But it works very well---not that anyone would notice since is so infrequently crowded. The galleries and theatre were beautifully designed. But the building should never have been built. It's too large for what its supporters can fund and maintain. I hear that the Carnegie has been approached to be the white knight, which might be a good idea. The Museum of Art has periodically sought a downtown venue and with the Carnegie's support, the Wilson Center could possibly survive in some form. Further, CMOA is the repository of the Teenie Harris archive, a collection of photographs taken exclusively in the Hill District in the 20s through the 50s. The photographs never seem to be on display but having them showcased in an African-American satellite museum seems very appropriate. Ironically, way back when the Carnegie apparently offered free space to the African-American center when it was just getting on its feet, but the offer was refused as they wanted their own building. Bad call.

I doubt it will be converted to retail or food and beverage. I would expect some cultural institution to come to its rescue. But it would be great if the Liberty Avenue streetscape could be enlivened a bit with a restaurant/bar/coffee shop.

I always thought this should've been a taller mixed-use building. Combine the African-American Cultural Center with office space/residential/etc above it... and activate the street-level with coffeeshop/restaurant/jazz club. Building might be nice on the inside, but it's a waste of a Downtown block... especially since the group never had the capability of sustaining it financially.

Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes with Point Park U.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes with Point Park U.

My thoughts exactly.

[photoLith]

So stupid that pos building replaced historic buildings. I thought it was built on land that was already destroyed way back.

[GeneW]

I've been to a few performances at the Wilson Center and it's a nice space inside. I'm not the hugest fan of the exterior design but at least it's distinctive.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

I always thought this should've been a taller mixed-use building. Combine the African-American Cultural Center with office space/residential/etc above it... and activate the street-level with coffeeshop/restaurant/jazz club. Building might be nice on the inside, but it's a waste of a Downtown block... especially since the group never had the capability of sustaining it financially.

Hopefully we don't make the same mistakes with Point Park U.

My comment about the building's interior was just an aside. It should never have built. There was little grass roots support for it and no consideration for the ongoing costs of programming and maintenance. The center was named after August Wilson at the eleventh hour as a ploy (successful, it turns out) to increase interest in the project among the city's foundations. I am still surprised that they managed to pull together the required funding.

Despite the talk, I can't see the Carnegie stepping in to save the center or use the building. They probably love the idea of getting a building in the cultural district that already has performance space and galleries, and they could surely handle the programming and draw the crowds. But it would be an expensive and financially risky venture. So you may get your wish. For a mere $7 million payable to Dollar Bank, a developer can buy the building, level it and build tall.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by DKNewYork

My comment about the building's interior was just an aside. It should never have built. There was little grass roots support for it and no consideration for the ongoing costs of programming and maintenance. The center was named after August Wilson at the eleventh hour as a ploy (successful, it turns out) to increase interest in the project among the city's foundations. I am still surprised that they managed to pull together the required funding.

Despite the talk, I can't see the Carnegie stepping in to save the center or use the building. They probably love the idea of getting a building in the cultural district that already has performance space and galleries, and they could surely handle the programming and draw the crowds. But it would be an expensive and financially risky venture. So you may get your wish. For a mere $7 million payable to Dollar Bank, a developer can buy the building, level it and build tall.

Agreed with your first paragraph. Good insights.

However, don't think any developer would level this. It would be a PR nightmare.

[BrianTH]

Could they do a partial rebuild? It is ultimately a pretty big lot, and only the corner of Liberty and William Penn has any notable architectural merit. Here are interior plans:







I'm imagining you could keep the sections marked 4, 5, 6, 12, and 13, turning them into an entrance, lobby, public space area, etc. (which could work for an apartment building, hotel, office building, or some combination thereof), and then you could redo the rest. Or keep more parts--say keep or redo some or all of Section 3 as a scaled-down African American art gallery and performance space, or whatever helps the PR angle.

My point is that could all be at the developer's option.

[George Woods]

I was pissed when they tore down all of those little old (albeit decrepit) buildings for the August Wilson Center, but I was even more angry that they removed a little alley to accommodate a building of that length. The funky triangular lots that result from the diagonal intersections along Liberty are really neat, and they wiped that one off of the map for this building. I'm as passionate about preserving old buildings as anybody, but I also hate to see other aspects of the historic city-scape obliterated. This was part of the travesty of Allegheny Center. It would still be awful to have lost all of those buildings, but wouldn't it be interesting for generations who don't know what was there to still get an idea of just how many streets there used to be? Those streets were surveyed in 1788. The alley lost to make way for the AW Center was surveyed in 1784. Besides the Blockhouse, neither the Northside nor Downtown has a building that old. The streets are historic, too. A block of Oliver Avenue was lost to accommodate one of PNC's buildings. The Federal Building sits where tiny Eighth Avenue would be today. And in the 21st century, we still allow these 18th-century vestiges to be built on. I wish PHLF and other, similar groups would stand up for them.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Agreed with your first paragraph. Good insights.

However, don't think any developer would level this. It would be a PR nightmare.

Agreed. A developer announcing that it had acquired the building to tear it down would be crucified for both wastefulness and racial insensitivity.

The best outcome would be building up over the existing center but I have no idea if sufficient footings are in place. The foundation and pilings were, I assume, built to support only a three story building. But if a taller building could be built above the existing center (or just part of it), there would be added density as well as a revenue stream for the center. Maybe this should be the lens through which the Carnegie views the situation: Team up with a developer who will built commercial or residential space above in return for use of the lower levels as the Carnegie's African-American and Cultural District outpost. With all the heavy hitters on the various Carnegie boards, surely they have deep ties to the region's real estate developers. Or non-local developers like Philly's PMC.

No idea if it could be done. Where is Pfaffman?

[George Woods]

[sigh]

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by George Woods

I was pissed when they tore down all of those little old (albeit decrepit) buildings for the August Wilson Center, but I was even more angry that they removed a little alley to accommodate a building of that length. The funky triangular lots that result from the diagonal intersections along Liberty are really neat, and they wiped that one off of the map for this building. I'm as passionate about preserving old buildings as anybody, but I also hate to see other aspects of the historic city-scape obliterated. This was part of the travesty of Allegheny Center. It would still be awful to have lost all of those buildings, but wouldn't it be interesting for generations who don't know what was there to still get an idea of just how many streets there used to be? Those streets were surveyed in 1788. The alley lost to make way for the AW Center was surveyed in 1784. Besides the Blockhouse, neither the Northside nor Downtown has a building that old. The streets are historic, too. A block of Oliver Avenue was lost to accommodate one of PNC's buildings. The Federal Building sits where tiny Eighth Avenue would be today. And in the 21st century, we still allow these 18th-century vestiges to be built on. I wish PHLF and other, similar groups would stand up for them.

Excellent points, George.

[BrianTH]

So would Carnegie need/want the theater? Because just eyeballing it, it seems to me if you could ditch the theater then you could start over with a new foundation for most of the lot to support a new higher building. And personally, I see no real reason to keep the facades along Liberty outside the theater/cafe section either.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by George Woods

I was pissed when they tore down all of those little old (albeit decrepit) buildings for the August Wilson Center, but I was even more angry that they removed a little alley to accommodate a building of that length. The funky triangular lots that result from the diagonal intersections along Liberty are really neat, and they wiped that one off of the map for this building. I'm as passionate about preserving old buildings as anybody, but I also hate to see other aspects of the historic city-scape obliterated. This was part of the travesty of Allegheny Center. It would still be awful to have lost all of those buildings, but wouldn't it be interesting for generations who don't know what was there to still get an idea of just how many streets there used to be? Those streets were surveyed in 1788. The alley lost to make way for the AW Center was surveyed in 1784. Besides the Blockhouse, neither the Northside nor Downtown has a building that old. The streets are historic, too. A block of Oliver Avenue was lost to accommodate one of PNC's buildings. The Federal Building sits where tiny Eighth Avenue would be today. And in the 21st century, we still allow these 18th-century vestiges to be built on. I wish PHLF and other, similar groups would stand up for them.

Great insights about the old street grid. But before anyone starts complaining about PNC: The bank played no part in the destruction of the block of Oliver Avenue (between Wood and Liberty) that was lost during the construction of what is now Two PNC Plaza. That happened when the building was built as the HQ for Equibank, long long before PNC bought the building.

So old Eighth Avenue was one block long?

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So would Carnegie need/want the theater? Because just eyeballing it, it seems to me if you could ditch the theater then you could start over with a new foundation for most of the lot to support a new higher building. And personally, I see no real reason to keep the facades along Liberty outside the theater/cafe section either.

Good question. CMOA has at least twice tried to establish a downtown outpost. I have always assumed that galleries would be what they most desire/need. They could probably use the theater (sublet it, or allow the current resident companies to continue to use it) but my guess is that any theatre would be secondary to the mission of such a downtown venture.