Transit Fantasies

[memememe76]

Maybe because it's older and the region has had more time to develop, but I don't think there's a section along the Expo line where I feel they should've added another station. I would probably say the same for Millennium Line.

As for the Canada Line, the lack of a station for Cambie Village is noticeable for lots of reasons. The Richmond side is pretty much perfect. But I think the 15 Bus helps people go to those places pretty well.

Of course, there are times where I feel the stations are kinda awkwardly located--Main Station is central to lots of places but not really near anything of import; Gilmore Station and the long row of office buildings is a really annoying walk; Commercial Station is pretty far from the core of Commercial Drive; Olympic Village Station is a pretty annoying walk from and to the actual Olympic Village. And don't get me started on the stations that are so far from shopping malls (Lougheed is the worst!).

If I had a transit fantasy, I would like countdowns clocks at the *entrance* of each Skytrain Station, kinda like the Seabus and some of the bus stops (while I'm at it, they should install those at all bus stops).

[red-paladin]

Gilmore will be better when a 'Plaza 88' type development is build over / around it.
I don't mind the walk from Lougheed Station to the mall, and anyway, hopefully the parking lot and the overgrown lot next to the station would be redeveloped soon anyway.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I guess you haven't been down there in a few years, because King George is 4 lanes wide now past the Serpentine Fen, from Colebrook to hwy 99. (with a decorated median wide enough for left turn lanes in places, so really a 5 lane wide ROW). They spent a good 3 or 4 years working on it with preloading and twinning the bridge over the Serpentine River. Don't believe me? Check street view, it is more up to date.

In fact, the median looks wide enough to support Skytrain pillars. But I'm sure there is still plenty of room to the east of the road for either Skytrain or light rail if we ever decide it is necessary to send it to South Surrey. And it might be necessary one day. The population of South Surrey is already 80,000 and projected to reach 133,000 by 2041. One day, down the road rapid transit to South Surrey is going to be a serious consideration.

Also, Skytrain is pretty quiet is pretty quiet compared to other things. Because of the stearable bogeys it does very screeching. Decibel wise, trucks make more noise than Skytrain (and don't forget about sirens from emergency vehicles that frequent the area), and just up the street is one very busy stretch of rail way. If birds couldn't cope with Skytrain, how come the whistles and really loud screeching of heavy trains drive them away?

And as for soft soil, we learned how to deal with that from building the Canada line. Much of the guideway in Richmond and out to the airport is built on unstable land.

There is also supposed to be a greenway along King George through this area according to the Surrey Greenways plan.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Wow, those are really awesome charts. Did you make those??

Thanks. I made the Vancouver one. I think I got some information from the Toronto one from nname. He's the local data nerd. Kudos to that!

There are a couple of reasons SkyTrain is faster. The two big ones:

1. Linear Induction Motors accelerate faster
2. Station spacing

I think I did a Canada Line one too, and remember it was somewhere in between Expo and TTC which validates the LIM argument.

If you have a trip computer on your car that calculates average speed, you will be shocked how much one 2 minute slowdown on the highway will affect your average speed, making the excessive 20 minutes of speeding 20km/h over the limit all worth nothing.

Stopping and starting also hugely affects fuel efficiency, which is why hybrid cars (which use the electric motor mostly when starting and stopping) get drastically better numbers in stop-and-go city traffic.

Originally Posted by memememe76

Maybe because it's older and the region has had more time to develop, but I don't think there's a section along the Expo line where I feel they should've added another station. I would probably say the same for Millennium Line.

It does have to do with development, for sure, but I agree that some stations
could've been placed better.

The biggest missing thing on the M-Line is a station at Woodlands between Columbia and Sapperton. It would serve the growing community there really well as well as connect by bus really well with a part of New West that is detached from downtown.

The station at Renfrew may have initially been better placed and more nicely integrated at Nanaimo (station called Trout Lake), given Renfrew's proximity to Rupert, but the technology center at Renfrew is growing and that area has more open space to develop.

Patterson might have been better at Kingsway or Boundary and then Royal Oak could be moved closer to Metrown to Nelson which would open up a gap to put in a station at Gilley.

And a station between 22nd and New West would be welcome as well, again because of the hills in New West and the awkwardness of the layout.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Gilmore will be better when a 'Plaza 88' type development is build over / around it.
I don't mind the walk from Lougheed Station to the mall, and anyway, hopefully the parking lot and the overgrown lot next to the station would be redeveloped soon anyway.

Is this still happening? That station is ripe for integration into surrounding architecture. It was BUILT to be temporary!

[red-paladin]

I guess it will happen eventually

[xd_1771]

Everyday during the evening rush hour, 192 buses per hour head out of the Metro Core (Downtown Vancouver and Central Broadway). That's 1 bus every 18.75 seconds transporting people out of the Metro Core. With a more urban intensive rapid transit system, you could easily eliminate 60% of those transit hours. That's 115 buses per hour or equivalent transit dollars that could be focused on all of Surrey, and once Surrey has a frequent, reliable bus network, there will be more people taking transit and less cars on Surrey streets.

You're certainly right in that creating a more urban intensive rapid transit system COULD eliminate and allow for the diversion of bus service hours; but, it's doubtful that the money to divert those buses to outer areas (let alone eventually build rapid transit to them) would then exist, given the massive road-based infrastructure costs that a more sprawling suburb would place on the region and the province, and the massive transit costs of trying to service low-density areas with any sort of frequent transit.

(By the way, that wouldn't happen. The increase in transit riders spurred by the addition of more inner-city rapid transit and the creation of an associated urban/city lifestyle would probably not significantly reduce the amount of buses needed to serve the city. One of the best examples of this is the 99 and the 9. The 9 thrives as the urban form on Broadway is still workable with localized bus services. For the same reason, building RRT down Main would probably still necessitate quality service on the #3. Local service is there for several other reasons, such as to service local businesses, get people to stations, and provide better access for the disabled and those on mobility aids.)

[VanCvl]

Part of the issue why Broadway station is so busy is because the Expo line forces the users to transfer to the 99. So when the UBC line is constructed I'm thinking that a fourth line is created with a physical connection between the Expo and Millennium Line at the Grandview cut. So the lines would be:

Expo Line - King George to Waterfront
Millennium Line - Coquitlam to UBC via Millennium Line
New Line - King George to UBC (along original expo route)
New Line 2 - Coquitlam to Waterfront via Expo Line

Im too lazy to draw this up, but what do you guys think?

[antonba]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Of course, there are times where I feel the stations are kinda awkwardly located--[sic] Gilmore Station and the long row of office buildings is a really annoying walk; Commercial Station is pretty far from the core of Commercial Drive; Olympic Village Station is a pretty annoying walk from and to the actual Olympic Village. And don't get me started on the stations that are so far from shopping malls (Lougheed is the worst!).

Long walks, really? I mean, I understand you completely, I've done the walks at all these stations many times, but the train follows the alignment of the road a lot of the time, and it's not like the malls have doors at the road.

But more importantly, I since moved to Seattle, where the only train line is so much worse implemented that it makes the Vancouver implementation seem "beyond perfect".

2 examples so that you appreciate how good it is in Vancouver:

* Airport station lets you off at an airport parking garage where you have some 700 meters or so before you reach the beginning of the terminal. It's a covered walk, but it's outside, so you get the cold, wind and on top of that car fumes.

* Columbia City station is also 500-1000 meters away from the actual commercial center of Columbia City. In fact, I discovered that center by chance as you cannot even see it from the station. I just went down a road from the station and I ended up in it and realized, oh I see, that's why there's a "City" in Columbia City.

Note, I am talking about Central Link light rail here.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by VanCvl

Part of the issue why Broadway station is so busy is because the Expo line forces the users to transfer to the 99. So when the UBC line is constructed I'm thinking that a fourth line is created with a physical connection between the Expo and Millennium Line at the Grandview cut. So the lines would be:

Expo Line - King George to Waterfront
Millennium Line - Coquitlam to UBC via Millennium Line
New Line - King George to UBC (along original expo route)
New Line 2 - Coquitlam to Waterfront via Expo Line

Im too lazy to draw this up, but what do you guys think?

Sounds good to me, but I really need to see it visually.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by antonba

* Airport station lets you off at an airport parking garage where you have some 700 meters or so before you reach the beginning of the terminal. It's a covered walk, but it's outside, so you get the cold, wind and on top of that car fumes.

Not to get too far off topic, but I never understood why the Seattle Port Authority didn't invest in improving the corridor area. For one, it would not cost a lot of money and would do wonders in improving the walking experience. At the very least, putting a full sheet of glass to separate the parking lot from the corridor would do wonders already.

I also never understood why the LINK didn't route via South Centre...

[logan5]

Originally Posted by VanCvl

Part of the issue why Broadway station is so busy is because the Expo line forces the users to transfer to the 99. So when the UBC line is constructed I'm thinking that a fourth line is created with a physical connection between the Expo and Millennium Line at the Grandview cut. So the lines would be:

Expo Line - King George to Waterfront
Millennium Line - Coquitlam to UBC via Millennium Line
New Line - King George to UBC (along original expo route)
New Line 2 - Coquitlam to Waterfront via Expo Line

Im too lazy to draw this up, but what do you guys think?

I'm not sure if major track switching like that could be retrofitted onto the Expo Line without causing a major shutdown. What could be done though is the M Line could branch at VCC, with 1 part of the branch going down Broadway as planned, and the other branch (all elevated) follows the rail line running roughly parallel with Glen Dr., then turn west in the rail yard to link up with the Expo Line at Waterfront Station which would create a loop through downtown. The approximate cost would be $520 million.

[nname]

Originally Posted by memememe76

And don't get me started on the stations that are so far from shopping malls (Lougheed is the worst!).

Took the wrong exit? Before they close the upper west entrance for Evergreen Line construction, walking distance from the mall and the station is only 100m...

[officedweller]

WRT Lougheed, there was a lawsuit over the station location if I recall correctly. The mall owners at the time (not Shape) wanted the station at the mall, but didn't want to pay for it.

Personally, I think stations should focus on the area, not a particular development project (i.e. mall). In the case of Brentwood and Lougheed, I fully expect the malls to build out to the stations (like Yorkdale in TO), rather than expecting the line to curve and bend (at taxpayer expense) to the mall doorstep. It would also encourage adjacent retail and office development. Also, waiting at a station at off-hours when the mall is closed isn't very good for safety.

Originally Posted by VanCvl

Part of the issue why Broadway station is so busy is because the Expo line forces the users to transfer to the 99. So when the UBC line is constructed I'm thinking that a fourth line is created with a physical connection between the Expo and Millennium Line at the Grandview cut. So the lines would be:

Expo Line - King George to Waterfront
Millennium Line - Coquitlam to UBC via Millennium Line
New Line - King George to UBC (along original expo route)
New Line 2 - Coquitlam to Waterfront via Expo Line

Im too lazy to draw this up, but what do you guys think?

New Line and New Line 2 will probably never happen.
Merges and branches at Broadway and Commercial have been discussed before.
The limiting factor is that interlining reduces the capacity of the Expo Line for passengers to and from Surrey.

See Appendix A of the Beyond The B-Line report linked below.

Originally Posted by officedweller

They won't do that because it would reduce the capacity of the Expo Line between Broadway & Commercial and Waterfront since a portion of the trains would branch off to the M-Line (meaning fewer trains would run the Expo Line to Metrotown and beyond). They can maintain higher throughputs by keeping the lines separate.

See Page 54 of this "Beyond the B-Line" document - which says that a merge could be in place for 20 years before capacity constraints would occur.

http://former.vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/pdf/beyondthebline.pdf

Note that the decision not to connect the two lines was also partly based on the assumption that the M-Line would be extended to meet the RAV Line in the 5-10 year timeframe (from M-Line completion), which hasn't happened. It seems that it would be too late now to build it (the solution being to build out west and - uhhhh - adding transfers to the Canada Line).

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthre...ht=broadway+commercial+merge#post4673808

[st7860]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Patterson might have been better at Kingsway or Boundary and then Royal Oak could be moved closer to Metrown to Nelson which would open up a gap to put in a station at Gilley.

I read somewhere that there WAS a planned station at boundary for telus workers but the station was shelved.

[officedweller]

Yeah, I think there is supposed to be a level section of track there - so a future station may be possible.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, I think there is supposed to be a level section of track there - so a future station may be possible.

Yes, Boundary and then Clark are both possible future station locations on the Expo Line , as well as Woodlands on the M-Line

[LeftCoaster]

I really wish they would build the Boundary station. Probably never will but I think it would make a lot of sense, especially for linking up with a N/S Boundary bus line.

Clark would be neat but a lot more development is needed before that would happen.

[MetroRailRoad]

The new Port Mann bridge was built with the possibility of carrying light rail or metro rail line. It would be nice to have several light rail lines in Coquitlam and Surrey that were interconnected via the Port Mann. Surrey could have its light rail network they want and more parts of Metro Vancouver would have rapid transit.

Originally Posted by logan5

I wonder if Vancouver would've been better off serving its most densely populated neighborhoods - spend the same amount of money on rapid transit, except direct it towards its most densely populated areas. Ridership in my approximation would certainly be higher (even though the system would be shorter at 48.5km), which would result in more cars off the road, and far more buses off the road. The suburban areas would see the benefits of this more urban system in the form off less car and bus traffic on inner city streets

The Metro systems in Canada's 3 largest cities are virtually identical in length (about 69 km), with the Montreal and Toronto systems serving their urbanized and densely populated areas, while Vancouver's system serves its suburban areas. To put it into perspective, the Montreal Metro, in a city of 4 million people, extends outwards from the city centre 11 km's. Toronto's subway, in a city of 5.5 million people, extends out as far as 15 km's. Vancouver's Skytrain on the other hand, with a metro population of only 2.5 million, has its system extend a whopping 23 km's from the downtown core - more than 6 km's further than Toronto, a city twice its size.

My alternate Skytrain system has been reduced from 68.6km to 48.5km, due to increased cost to build underground track while the number of stations is almost the same. To make it easy I converted 2.2km of elevated track into 1km of subway.

Red Line - obviously the alternate Expo Line. As is up to Burrard, then Waterfront Station is bypassed and runs as a tunnel up until just passed Broadway, where it becomes elevated and at grade. (I forgot Granville Station on the map)

Blue Line - as is up to Broadway, then underground to Arbutus.

Green Line - totally revamped Canada Line. All underground.

I've shown a Red Line extension to New West as an alternative to the Evergreen Line.

While it's true that Toronto and Montreal have about the same length of RRT, Vancouver has a smaller population (Vancouver is almost 2 times smaller than Montreal) and also has never almoglmated like Toronto and Montreal did, and thus ends up serving the suburbs. In addition, commuter subway is not unique to Vancouver- the BART system in San Francisco Bay Area is a regional subway system serving the entire Bay Area region in California,.

[xd_1771]

A lot of SkyTrain was probably modelled after BART but smaller, in my opinion. Heck, BART actually came first with the automated rapid transit system (albeit partial, and not moving-block)
Mark IIs and IIIs could do 100km/h, so I think in the future we could add stations and justify them by potentially increased line operating speed when the Mk Is are gone.