Saskatoon Construction II

[jigglysquishy]

We're really not far off from where Calgary was when they started planning their LRT.

They first laid the groundwork in 1967. They had a metro population of roughly 345,000. Saskatoon is at ~290,000 right now.

The plan was finalized in 1977. Calgary was at ~500,000.

The train opened in 1981. Calgary was at ~600,000.

At Saskatoon's current growth rates we will be at 345,000 in 2017.

Calgary started planning basically at our size and there are a lot of things we can learn about how they approached mass transit. Now is the time to start.

[North_Regina_Boy]

Originally Posted by Dillweed

" And the ability to turn this bridge into an LRT bridge in the future as the city expands would greatly enhance transit to a point where people can actually use the system."

I think you would be talking the far distant future for a city Saskatoon's size. Saskatoon may be a growing city but I think you would be have to be looking at a population at least double the present population to be feasible for a LRT system. How long do you think that would take?

If you want a dedicated lane for bus traffic then add a lane to the bridge for buses only. That certainly would be far cheaper than building a dedicated bridge for bus traffic only. But I question the feasibility of even that considering it must take all of 30 seconds to drive over the SS river.

Just because Calgary a city of 1 million has a dedicated bridge for buses hardly justifys the same for Saskatoon a city of less than 300K. I just don't think that the Saskatoon transit system moves enough people for either LRT or BRT systems to be feasible. Building BRT's aren't cheap either just ask Winnipeg that.

Well I see this two ways:

First: Build the infrastructure right when you are talking about it. Don't think retrofit. As we all know from the shining example of Circle Drive North bridge when built in the 80's could of been designed 6 lanes. However to save 2.5M was built as 4. Then in 2006 was expanded to 6 lanes at the cost of 25M in construction fees, not to mention the colossal loss to the economy with lost time and slow service.

The city of Saskatoon, at current, is a medium sized Canadian city. Yes that is a true statement. However with current immigrant and inter-provincial residents moving here within 25-50 years this city could be within 750k-1M range.

This bridge is to last what 80-100 years? If not more with a more rigorous maintenance schedule. By that time it is feasible to see Saskatoon at 1.25M or more.

Short term (10-20 year) thinking has been the norm in this city. When we try to play catch-up on something that could of been done right in the first place we all pay. Whether or not you use the infrastructure or not.

Also with the ability to expand transit more people would use it. A better system for all means more ridership. The stigma is changing, not as fast here but it is. More complex urban developments with less sprawl will create inner-city gridlock if we don't have an efficient transit system.

Or we we keep developing CAR oriented transit options. That will eventually bog down faster as the city expands.

People here need to start thinking long term do something right for a change and stop having that "small-city" attitude otherwise Saskatoon's population will balloon under your feet and they will be left scratching their heads going... what... what happened? Where did our "small-city" go?

[North_Regina_Boy]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

We're really not far off from where Calgary was when they started planning their LRT.

They first laid the groundwork in 1967. They had a metro population of roughly 345,000. Saskatoon is at ~290,000 right now.

The plan was finalized in 1977. Calgary was at ~500,000.

The train opened in 1981. Calgary was at ~600,000.

At Saskatoon's current growth rates we will be at 345,000 in 2017.

Calgary started planning basically at our size and there are a lot of things we can learn about how they approached mass transit. Now is the time to start.

Thank-you for those numbers jigglysquishy. I really appreciate the backing on my argument you provide with this information.

It is time to start, because our city isn't going to get any larger (Limits Wise) until 500,000 residents. Unlike Calgary. So that is a lot more people in this space that is roughly the same size as Calgary's NW quadrant.

[Arts]

Originally Posted by North_Regina_Boy

...This bridge is to last what 80-100 years? If not more with a more rigorous maintenance schedule. By that time it is feasible to see Saskatoon at 1.25M or more.

Short term (10-20 year) thinking has been the norm in this city. When we try to play catch-up on something that could of been done right in the first place we all pay. Whether or not you use the infrastructure or not.

The city actually tries to have a 50 year plan and a 20 year plan, I don't think there is anything wrong with that timescale. In terms of the structure and number of lanes etc - 100 years is too far to look into the future. However long term planning isn't really about the bridges or the river crossings, it is about the corridors, and looking past 100 years is necessary when thinking of it that way.

Most of my reason for being against the Traffic Bridge replacement having commuter traffic is that the corridor isn't completely in place. If we are going to build an effective route for vehicles to get in and out of the central business district then where exactly does it flow to? Downtown is the terminus at the one end, but where is the terminus at the other? It doesn't exactly connect to a branch-like topology, because the only area this bridge really serves is Nutana which doesn't really have enough vehicles to necessitate a bridge, particularly when they already have 2 other vehicle crossings.

Victoria Ave is not an arterial road, nor do I believe it can easily be turned into one - not in 5 years, 20 years or even beyond 100 years. What is there is there and even with generations of infill a vehicle bridge will never really serve to ease congestion, it will only create more gridlocking intersections. For it to work Victoria Ave would have to interchange with the Idylwyld freeway 3 blocks to the west, which would mean appropriating some of the most beautiful properties in the city.

But as a pedestrian crossing the traffic bridge replacement would see significant use, and due to the wide boulevard Victoria Ave could serve well as a future BRT route to shortcut quickly from DT to 8th st.

[North_Regina_Boy]

Originally Posted by Arts

The city actually tries to have a 50 year plan and a 20 year plan, I don't think there is anything wrong with that timescale. In terms of the structure and number of lanes etc - 100 years is too far to look into the future. However long term planning isn't really about the bridges or the river crossings, it is about the corridors, and looking past 100 years is necessary when thinking of it that way.

Most of my reason for being against the Traffic Bridge replacement having commuter traffic is that the corridor isn't completely in place. If we are going to build an effective route for vehicles to get in and out of the central business district then where exactly does it flow to? Downtown is the terminus at the one end, but where is the terminus at the other? It doesn't exactly connect to a branch-like topology, because the only area this bridge really serves is Nutana which doesn't really have enough vehicles to necessitate a bridge, particularly when they already have 2 other vehicle crossings.

Victoria Ave is not an arterial road, nor do I believe it can easily be turned into one - not in 5 years, 20 years or even beyond 100 years. What is there is there and even with generations of infill a vehicle bridge will never really serve to ease congestion, it will only create more gridlocking intersections. For it to work Victoria Ave would have to interchange with the Idylwyld freeway 3 blocks to the west, which would mean appropriating some of the most beautiful properties in the city.

But as a pedestrian crossing the traffic bridge replacement would see significant use, and due to the wide boulevard Victoria Ave could serve well as a future BRT route to shortcut quickly from DT to 8th st.

I am not advocating this corridor for large scale personal vehicles. But for Transit BRT or LRT. Victora can be a connector between the downtown to 8th street. As it forms a natural link to 3rd street and only has to travel a few hundred meters to 8th street then turn to the east.

My personal vision is BRT route (LRT tracks later) down the middle of Victoria with trees on either side. Then bike / walking paths between the trees and houses. With the crossroads still remaining. That would happen between 8th street and Sask Crescent. With a transit stop at the corner of Victoria and Main.

[dataspank]

I am not posting this to be a jerk but Saskatoon is not working out.
When it comes to economic confidence and vision Regina is kicking your 🞵🞵🞵. And this from a city with 50k fewer people.
Boom times don't get any better than what Sask has experienced over the last decade and what have you got to show for it...a completed ring road and a gluten free car wash. Many locals will agree with me when I say that is pathetic.
Sure your population is growing and there is an improved level of sophistication in certain circles but where is that confidence from developers and lenders and city leaders to make an economic commitment to Saskatoon? The last major tall building was what...20 years ago?
The way it is going now Saskatoon maybe has one more generation left as the largest city in the province. Regina is rocking with scores of new developments in office and resi. There is commitment and confidence shown in the economic future of Regina that is not being duplicated in Saskatoon. My 2 cents, blast away!

[Irvin]

Originally Posted by dataspank

I am not posting this to be a jerk but Saskatoon is not working out.
When it comes to economic confidence and vision Regina is kicking your 🞵🞵🞵. And this from a city with 50k fewer people.
Boom times don't get any better than what Sask has experienced over the last decade and what have you got to show for it...a completed ring road and a gluten free car wash. Many locals will agree with me when I say that is pathetic.
Sure your population is growing and there is an improved level of sophistication in certain circles but where is that confidence from developers and lenders and city leaders to make an economic commitment to Saskatoon? The last major tall building was what...20 years ago?
The way it is going now Saskatoon maybe has one more generation left as the largest city in the province. Regina is rocking with scores of new developments in office and resi. There is commitment and confidence shown in the economic future of Regina that is not being duplicated in Saskatoon. My 2 cents, blast away!

Wow are we a bit testy - I normally don't critique opinions on this forum but you are not seeing the big picture - have you seen the vision for river landing the park and village - I'm not aware of Regina developing anything close to the magnitude of this project. If your idea of vision and success is how many 20 story buildings a city puts up I feel sorry for you. Besides when you have the seat of government and almost all the crown corporations - it is very likely that downtown office will be more in demand.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by dataspank

I am not posting this to be a jerk but Saskatoon is not working out.
When it comes to economic confidence and vision Regina is kicking your 🞵🞵🞵. And this from a city with 50k fewer people.
Boom times don't get any better than what Sask has experienced over the last decade and what have you got to show for it...a completed ring road and a gluten free car wash. Many locals will agree with me when I say that is pathetic.
Sure your population is growing and there is an improved level of sophistication in certain circles but where is that confidence from developers and lenders and city leaders to make an economic commitment to Saskatoon? The last major tall building was what...20 years ago?
The way it is going now Saskatoon maybe has one more generation left as the largest city in the province. Regina is rocking with scores of new developments in office and resi. There is commitment and confidence shown in the economic future of Regina that is not being duplicated in Saskatoon. My 2 cents, blast away!

What exactly is your familiarity with Saskatoon and what is currently going on here in terms of "vision" and "economic confidence"? Is it based solely on what you see on an internet forum? If your only test for the prosperity and development of a city is how many high rises are going up, then that is a terribly narrow and short-sighted lens through which to understand what is going on in a place. And outside of the niche circle of Skyscraperpage forumers, it means very little to people, the business community included.

I can think of a vast number of things that illustrate the "commitment and confidence of the economic future" of Saskatoon. A renewed attitude and sense of the future is almost tangibly pulsing through the community right now. But I feel it would be a waste of my time to write out that list, cuz if it ain't an office tower, it ain't worth a sniff to you. Right?

Regina and Saskatoon are both kicking 🞵🞵🞵. Saskatchewan is on a roll. And that is fantastic. Who knows what the future will hold? Maybe Saskatoon will remain the largest city, maybe Regina will overtake. Who's to say? But if you equate some office and residential development in one city as a sure sign that it will surely overtake the other, and that that other city is not "working out", then you've demonstrated your understanding of anything outside of high rise construction to be sorely lacking.

[EpicPonyTime]

Saskatoon has been outgrowing Regina for decades and there's no sign of that changing anytime soon. Not only that, the cities around Saskatoon are growing faster than those near Regina. I don't feel like bashing Regina since they are improving at an impressive rate, but when Cameco, Potash Corp and BHP all decide to move down there, maybe I'll be able to see how Regina has more economic confidence.

[Echoes]

^ That reminds me, BHP Billiton, the world's largest mining company, moved its Canadian Headquarters from Vancouver to Saskatoon. Someone should've let them know they were jumping on a sinking ship.

[dataspank]

Yes I am basing my opinion of growth and confidence on improvements to the skyline which I would be the first to agree is missing much of the picture. But not all of the picture. There is a somewhat direct correlation between economic/population growth and additions to a cities tallest building inventory.

In fact, of all the Canadian cities of over 200,000 there is only 1 city which has not added something new to their top 10 tallest in the past 30 years. You guessed it, Saskatoon.
It was 30 years ago that the Hallmark Place apartments went up. And since then the top 10 hasn't budged.

I cannot believe somebody used River Landing as a positive example of development in Stoon. Yes I know about that project and agree it looks very awesome on paper - but it's looked very awesome on paper for YEARS! As it stands now I consider RL (or the lack of progress on this project) to be a very telling sign of development in Saskatoon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not down on Saskatoon, it is an excellent city that I enjoy visiting and want to see flourish.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by dataspank

Yes I am basing my opinion of growth and confidence on improvements to the skyline which I would be the first to agree is missing much of the picture. But not all of the picture. There is a somewhat direct correlation between economic/population growth and additions to a cities tallest building inventory.

In fact, of all the Canadian cities of over 200,000 there is only 1 city which has not added something new to their top 10 tallest in the past 30 years. You guessed it, Saskatoon.
It was 30 years ago that the Hallmark Place apartments went up. And since then the top 10 hasn't budged.

I cannot believe somebody used River Landing as a positive example of development in Stoon. Yes I know about that project and agree it looks very awesome on paper - but it's looked very awesome on paper for YEARS! As it stands now I consider RL (or the lack of progress on this project) to be a very telling sign of development in Saskatoon.

Don't get me wrong, I am not down on Saskatoon, it is an excellent city that I enjoy visiting and want to see flourish.

So Saskatoon hasn't added anything substantial to their skyline. Big deal. You want that move to Dubai. Saskatoon is a very livable city and is the envy of a lot of cities including Regina...

Take away the government from Regina and what's left? Moose Jaw...

You post your comments in a Saskatoon Thread, expect a lot of bashing then...

[Chadillaccc]

Over the next five years, Saskatoon will be adding to their skyline on a substantial scale. This guy doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. I've never even been to Saskatoon, yet I would never dare underestimate it.

Also, just for comparison's sake, Regina hadn't added anything new to their skyline in 21 years until Mosaic Potash Tower, this year. Saskatoon's tallest proposal, which is likely to go through, is 10 meters taller than that and will be the first tower in the province to surpass 90 meters.

[Echoes]

University of Saskatchewan hotel announcement coming

By Scott Larson, The StarPhoenix September 26, 2013

The University of Saskatchewan is just weeks away from announcing a new hotel development at College Quarter.

Judy Yungwirth, director of corporate administration, said they are finalizing arrangements and an announcement should be made within three weeks on a hotel that will be built along College Drive, right beside the stadium parkade.

"Hopefully this is the beginning of what we want to do with that space," Yungwirth said.

Once the hotel is in place, the university plans to use the proceeds to help kickstart other parts of the project, including a proposed rink to replace the old Rutherford arena, a fine-arts building, residential and commercial space.

The university would not run the hotel, but rather work out a long-term lease with the winning proposal.

The university was able to get the city to rezone the 145-acre College Quarter - situated south of College Drive and between Cumberland and Preston avenues - last December and sent out a request for proposals in January of this year.

The university stated it would like to see the hotel cater to a number of different groups: long-term stays for visiting faculty and researchers, shorter stays for parents, sports teams and have meeting space.

Earlier, the U of S said it had received six bids from developers.

The hotel site is currently occupied by beach volleyball courts and the seed barn, which Yungwirth said they are in the process of moving.

Earlier timelines suggested construction would begin by early 2014, with the hotel open in 2015.

It must also meet architectural standards that have been set out for College Quarter.

[....]

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/business/U...l+announcement+coming/8960729/story.html

^ Glad to hear that the Seed Barn will be moved to a new location to make way for the hotel, and not just torn down.

[Dougler306]

[QUOTE=Dalreg;6281523]So Saskatoon hasn't added anything substantial to their skyline. Big deal. You want that move to Dubai. Saskatoon is a very livable city and is the envy of a lot of cities including Regina...

Take away the government from Regina and what's left? Moose Jaw...

You post your comments in a Saskatoon Thread, expect a lot of bashing then.


The envy of Regina..... plz buddy. We have 2 brand new condo buildings going up , soon to be completed, capital pointe is proceeding well faster then river landing.... FCC has a new building going up next year along with the new SGI tender that will add another skyscraper to the skyline, plus allow the re branding of an old one. Doubletree to open soon in Regina and rumor of another condo by the same group who did gardens on rose. Oh yeah forgot the 2 tower cranes at the U of R for residences. Pure government town...

[saskatoonborn]

I havent been to Regina in a few years now and I am definately not going to steal their thunder. Fact is Regina has more commercial floor space by some 200,000 sq ft. Not a substantial amount by any stretch. I am going to defend Saskatoon, however, since nearly 40% of its usable space is outside of its cbd is just over 15%.

If you add up all the construction supposed to be completed over the next couple years (not proposed or on the fence or developments with not timeline like river landing) that 200,000 ft difference disappears.

Having so much office space outside of your cbd might not add to the skyline but it is more affordable as well as cuts down peoples commutes so they dont have to travel down town everyday. That being said I think its a problem with our city management and vision of our city council. They keep approving these projects all over the city that reduces our demand on the cbd and our population density in the mean time.

We have large companies like Cameco and AIT Canada (formally Bearing and Transmission) with Canadian head offices outside city center they do it because its cheaper and they do it because they can.

[Arts]

[QUOTE=Dougler306;6281671]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

So Saskatoon hasn't added anything substantial to their skyline. Big deal. You want that move to Dubai. Saskatoon is a very livable city and is the envy of a lot of cities including Regina...

Take away the government from Regina and what's left? Moose Jaw...

You post your comments in a Saskatoon Thread, expect a lot of bashing then.


The envy of Regina..... plz buddy. We have 2 brand new condo buildings going up , soon to be completed, capital pointe is proceeding well faster then river landing.... FCC has a new building going up next year along with the new SGI tender that will add another skyscraper to the skyline, plus allow the re branding of an old one. Doubletree to open soon in Regina and rumor of another condo by the same group who did gardens on rose. Oh yeah forgot the 2 tower cranes at the U of R for residences. Pure government town...

I love (and have lived in) both Regina and Saskatoon, and I personally love the skylines of both cities, and the changes from growth both cities are experiencing. I moved to Saskatoon from Vancouver in '99 and was underwhelmed by the state of construction at first (who wouldn't be after getting used to Vancouver's density). First time I was in Regina was 4 years after moving to SK and was impressed driving in from the north - when I lived there I was repeatedly amazed anytime visiting downtown, and out of town guests were alway surprised by the height and density downtown.

I noticed that Saskatonians were largely involved in a one sided rivalry, bragging how much better they were than Regina, and Reginians rarely even cared about Saskatoon. After moving back to Saskatoon I definitely notice a different vibe, less small townish, feels somehow more established to me, but not as friendly. I find both cities quite livable, but the urban spaces in Saskatoon seem a lot more pedestrian friendly to me, I enjoy walking around and seing the detail more, Regina was much easier to get around in by car and experiencing all parts was more convenient.

Anyways, be proud of your city, you do a lot of things right, some better than S'toon. And meanwhile I will enjoy the improvements that I personally experience in my own city (like the many new restaurants on 2nd ave, the number of improved roads and paths to get around, taking my son to the spray pad at river landing, etc).

[Echoes]

^ You make good points, Arts. Both Saskatoon and Regina can stand alone on their own merits. We shouldn't feel the need to put down the other city in order to defend our own, especially when responding to dataspank's opinions.

[Echoes]

Saskatoon, Regina expected to lead growth, Conference Board report says

The Canadian Press and The StarPhoenix September 27, 2013

OTTAWA — With Saskatoon and Regina on top, cities in Western Canada are expected to lead the country's metropolitan areas in economic growth this year, a report by the Conference Board of Canada says.

Saskatoon, Regina, Edmonton, Calgary and Vancouver make up the top five in the board's latest outlook for 13 Canadian metropolitan areas while Ottawa-Gatineau and Victoria are at the bottom of the list.

Growth in Saskatoon is forecast to reach 5.2 per cent this year, up from 4.1 per cent in 2012, while Regina is expected to growth by five per cent, repeating its performance last year.

"Despite some setbacks, Saskatchewan's economy is expected to perform well in the near term, with real GDP forecast to expand 3.5 per cent this year — more than twice the national average," the report said.

“Saskatoon and Regina continue to sizzle. In 2013, both economies are expected to grow about three times as fast as the overall Canadian economy,” said Mario Lefebvre, director, Centre for Municipal Studies, in a news release.

“Vibrant job markets in Saskatoon and Regina are attracting newcomers from all over Canada and abroad, boosting population growth and spurring demand for housing.”

Saskatoon’s economy will expand by 5.2 per cent in 2013, before easing to 3.5 per cent in 2014. The city’s employment, which rose a robust 4.7 per cent in 2012, is expected to grow by an even stronger 6.1 per cent this year.

Following real gross domestic product (GDP) growth above five per cent in two of the last three years, Regina’s economy will also continue to expand at a brisk pace. Regina’s economy will grow by five per cent this year and 3.9 per cent in 2014.

[....]

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/news/saska...owth+Conference+Board/8967872/story.html

[Echoes]

I noticed today that there is a sign up at the former CBC studios on 2nd Ave saying that it will be the future home of Caswell's. I'm glad to see that space converting to a retail use, and look forward to seeing what might take Caswell's current location in the Scotia Centre.

Also, the former Squire Shop a block up 2nd Ave is becoming "White Dahlia", a women's fashion store by Dutch Growers. Looks like they're doing some extensive renos. Hoarding is up around the facade.