Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I agree. I think Toronto has a shortage of this kind of sports and entertainment facility as well. 6 million people and only one major stadium? If they do it right I think they could do a lot with it.

A mid size stadium with an artificial surface (Braley) would be a lot more flexible than a turf stadium (BMO) re non sporting events ie concerts, trade shows

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by elly63

A mid size stadium with an artificial surface (Braley) would be a lot more flexible than a turf stadium (BMO) re non sporting events ie concerts, trade shows

Good point.

[elly63]

And you can bet MLSE is pooping their pants about this. Of all the mucky mucks at MLSE, this guy (Braley) is more politically connected, trusted and admired by the public, than they are. More of a lone wolf than a corporation. It also doesn't hurt that he's one crazy mofo, getting up there in years, who might just want to create the biggest and most sentimental monument to himself before he goes to the big stadium in the sky.

And as he's one of the largest commercial developers in Ontario, I highly doubt he'll build only a stadium for 10 Argo games a year. I have heard the term Argoland bandied about.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by elly63

And you can bet MLSE is pooping their pants about this. Of all the mucky mucks at MLSE, this guy (Braley) is more politically connected, trusted and admired by the public, than they are. More of a lone wolf than a corporation. It also doesn't hurt that he's one crazy mofo, getting up there in years, who might just want to create the biggest and most sentimental monument to himself before he goes to the big stadium in the sky.

And as he's one of the largest commercial developers in Ontario, I highly doubt he'll build only a stadium for 10 Argo games a year. I have heard the term Argoland bandied about.

Lol. Argopolis, Argo Eldorado.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by elly63

A mid size stadium with an artificial surface (Braley) would be a lot more flexible than a turf stadium (BMO) re non sporting events ie concerts, trade shows

When Richard Peddie (formerly MLSE) was interviewed on PTS, he stated that one of the reasons why they didn't buy the Argos two years ago (before the new TV contract) was that their bean counters figured they could only make about a million a year (not enough) He said they could have a few concerts and make that with a lot less fuss and muss.

Braley has been on enough entertainment committees that he knows this and he knows this kind of thing gives him a competitive edge over BMO and I would also assume his company would be a lot more flexible as they might not be as bound by shareholders and stakeholders as MLSE is.

[elly63]

You've got 200 million to spend on a new Toronto stadium, what do you want to see? Example?

Pan Am stadium plan rollout soon
Sep 22, 2012

The CFL's director of events and promotions, points to the stadium at University of North Texas in Denton, Texas, as a prototype for the league.



Curt Emerson, who has been compiling a blueprint for what the league needs in new stadia, called it “a model stadium, which would work well in our league with the technology they have put into it.”

The 30,000-seat Apogee Stadium, designed by HKS, is broadcast friendly and set up to help the school maximize game-day revenues.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by elly63

You've got 200 million to spend on a new Toronto stadium, what do you want to see? Example?

Pan Am stadium plan rollout soon
Sep 22, 2012

The CFL's director of events and promotions, points to the stadium at University of North Texas in Denton, Texas, as a prototype for the league.



Curt Emerson, who has been compiling a blueprint for what the league needs in new stadia, called it “a model stadium, which would work well in our league with the technology they have put into it.”

The 30,000-seat Apogee Stadium, designed by HKS, is broadcast friendly and set up to help the school maximize game-day revenues.

Looks good to me!

I’ve often wondered what goes on in the heads of MLSE’s and Rogers’ brain trusts. What was Rogers thinking when he brought the Bills to Toronto, for example? You can’t point to anything concrete that suggests that that was going to be a success. MLSE seems to stumble and stagger with everything they do other than the Leafs as well, who are pretty much idiot proof in any event. It seems to me that someone with any reasonably good ideas, like Braley, should be able to walk in there and do very well. Given the ties between Rogers, MLSE and the Toronto media in general I’m sure Braley knows he’ll be fighting the Toronto media the whole way, but I don’t think even Torontonians pay much attention to them anymore. I think Braley will do just fine.

[Steveston]

Originally Posted by Allan83

Looks good to me!

I’ve often wondered what goes on in the heads of MLSE’s and Rogers’ brain trusts. What was Rogers thinking when he brought the Bills to Toronto, for example? You can’t point to anything concrete that suggests that that was going to be a success. MLSE seems to stumble and stagger with everything they do other than the Leafs as well, who are pretty much idiot proof in any event. It seems to me that someone with any reasonably good ideas, like Braley, should be able to walk in there and do very well. Given the ties between Rogers, MLSE and the Toronto media in general I’m sure Braley knows he’ll be fighting the Toronto media the whole way, but I don’t think even Torontonians pay much attention to them anymore. I think Braley will do just fine.

If Harold Ballard couldn't kill the Leafs, it's doubtful that MLSE could.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Allan83

Looks good to me!...

Yeah... Except half the seats are in one endzone... Which is generally not prime seating... And basically not expandable at all for Grey Cups... There's a reason that type of design wasn't used for Ottawa, Winnipeg, or Saskatchewan (we don't know the final design, but the requirements we do know of would make this design impossible).

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by Allan83

If you look at downtown Toronto everything other than the Leafs seems to struggle down there.

I don't think I'd characterize it as "struggling".

The Raptors' lowest yearly attendance has never been below the league's average attendance, and that's despite being a perpetually awful team. For example, last year their attendance ranked 13th out of 30 teams despite missing the playoffs for the fifth year in a row. When they're winning, they have one of the best attendance figures in the league.

And this year the Jays' attendance ranks 15th out of 30 teams, representing a 20% increase over last year's attendance.

The attendance has nothing to do with being downtown and everything to do with the fans' perception of the competitiveness of the teams.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Ramako

I don't think I'd characterize it as "struggling".

The Raptors' lowest yearly attendance has never been below the league's average attendance, and that's despite being a perpetually awful team. For example, last year their attendance ranked 13th out of 30 teams despite missing the playoffs for the fifth year in a row. When they're winning, they have one of the best attendance figures in the league.

And this year the Jays' attendance ranks 15th out of 30 teams, representing a 20% increase over last year's attendance.

The attendance has nothing to do with being downtown and everything to do with the fans' perception of the competitiveness of the teams.

The Raptors get a bump from Leafs season ticket holders. It's impossible to tell actual support for the Raptors because of this.

[TownGuy]

Both the Jays and Raptors do remarkably well considering one hasn't made the playoffs since 1993 and the other is perennially bad. Obviously they don't do as well as the Leafs but not many teams anywhere do.

[Prometheus]

Despite being at a historical nadir, the Argos still have a superior average attendance to the Raptors.

Regarding television ratings, the Argos absolutely crush the Raptors.

Take the week of last year's season opening game for the Raptors:

NBA (Season Opener)

IND-TOR, Oct 31, TSN: 346, 000

CFL (Regular Season)

TOR-SSK, Oct 27, TSN: 1.026 million

And let's just throw in that week's NFL ratings for fun:

NFL

NO-DEN, Oct 28, TSN: 339, 000
NYG-DAL, Oct 28, Citytv: 508, 000
SF-ARZ, Oct 29, TSN: 396, 000

And in case you thought the numbers improved for the Raptors as the season progressed, they didn't. They got a lot worse:

NBA

TOR-BRK, Nov 3 SN: 185, 000
TOR-OKC, Nov 6, TSN: 91, 000

All numbers are BBM Canada 2+

Source

[Ramako]

What does the television audience figures have to do with stadium attendance, and how that might be affected by the location of the stadium?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Yeah... Except half the seats are in one endzone... Which is generally not prime seating... And basically not expandable at all for Grey Cups... There's a reason that type of design wasn't used for Ottawa, Winnipeg, or Saskatchewan (we don't know the final design, but the requirements we do know of would make this design impossible).

You might be taking this design a little too literally. There are many more thoughts that go into it aside from end zone seating (which can be excluded). Things such as communal gathering areas for fans away from their seats where they can buy lots of booze and goofy expensive food, areas where the expensive seat holders can interact with players before/after the game.

While there were those who didn't like the initial look of the Hamilton stadium there was more at work there beside the basic design. We can't expect the Youngs and the Braleys of this world not to profit from their largesse.

Also these new stadiums have to be environmentally friendly as well, another large consideration.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Ramako

What does the television audience figures have to do with stadium attendance, and how that might be affected by the location of the stadium?

To me it would show that despite the poor live attendance that there is an audience out there. And if that means moving the team to a right sized stadium where the fans are closer (to the stadium) and would be more inclined to attend live events then it's time to move.

We really don't know how large the fanbases are for the Raptors, Jays, TFC and Argos. Put TFC into the RC, do they sell 30k tickets, I doubt it. Yet the Argos look bad because they are in too large a venue. Could the Raptors sell 25k tickets I doubt that too, but they play in a right sized venue as does TFC. Because of that they are not exposed when only their family members and the dog watch them on TV.

I'm a big fan of the CMNT (soccer) I've been following it for 40 years and hearing the same things, how soccer will take over. Well, participation rates are up (and have been for years) and yet still nobody wants to watch it on TV. Do I think that will change. Nope. Most of those kids (not all) who grew up playing soccer still don't want to watch it and this has been going on since the 70s.

The Raptors and TFC have been around long enough to affect change, they have a core audience for live attendance but still few are interested outside that core. Argos have their diehard fans who attend the live events but somehow they are more popular amongst the general public than their live numbers indicate. Go figure. Just like watching porn.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Actually they can continue to do so. Baseball season ends in October so the grass would be removed so the stadium stands can be converted into football configuration for Grey Cup games, Bills games and concerts.

Oh, I didn't know they'd be removing the grass. I guess that makes sense.
So it's good the Skydome can continue to be used for the Grey Cup.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by elly63

Well, my American friend just like your beloved Bills can still play games after the baseball season, so can the Argos.

Yeah, I'm not a Bills fan. In fact, I can't stand them. I enjoy myself every time they lose - and I've had a lot of enjoyment the last 13+ years.

[WhipperSnapper]

BMO Field is owned by the City of Toronto not MLSE. Neither is there any room to expand its footprint for a larger field. To the north are buildings and the large parking lot to the south is spoken for at least unitl the end of 2015. What's planned for the Pan Am games is a legacy project too. It's not meant to be temporary.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Berklon

Oh, I didn't know they'd be removing the grass

Not sure about that yet, I don't believe we've had any news on that. It's going to be tough enough to grow the stuff, let alone re-sod every year. They're gonna need special lights to shine on shaded areas and no grass has yet been created that will grow in shaded areas and not die when walked on. It's gonna cost a lot of dough to complete and maintain and even more so if they choose to redo it every year.



The Green, Green Grass of Home (Safeco Field)