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  #9641  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 6:48 PM
Wilcal Wilcal is offline
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Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim View Post
That day has already come. Look at how busy the restaurants are on 7th street. Look at the people lining up for bars and clubs on Spring Street. Look at how busy LA Live! is at night for sports entertainment venues. Go to Grand Park on the weekends and see kids playing in our "pool" or the late night movies, or dancing at Dance Downtown.

It's no longer a joke. It's become a destination. My friends now want to go to downtown LA at night because it's more fun than other neighborhoods. But it will only get better......
It would have been more accurate if I had said, "goes from having been a joke..." Obviously, that was in an era of the past which no longer applies to today. Things have, and will constantly be changing in downtown, but it will take time to change the perception of what kind of place downtown was. I do not live downtown (I live in the farthest reaches of exurbia, e.g. 70 miles east), so I am very sensitive to what others who do live outside the city think. I'll provide three examples of what I mean:
1) a while back I remember talking with a German tourist whom I had met at Tecopa Hot springs (Death Valley), he told me about his itinerary in California--two days in Los Angeles (to visit Disneyland, and Universal studios--what else?) and four days in San Francisco, which excited him because of its reputed beauty. When I suggested to him to give more days to Los Angeles to explore the city, you should have seen his face. I do profess love for what I consider "my" city, and have always been a booster. I frankly said to him that whatever he may have heard, Los Angeles is not a beautiful city like San Francisco, but it is an incredibly interesting city (especially downtown, which I think is much more so than San Francisco) and it takes time to explore and understand it. However, no matter what I could say, he seemed unconvinced

2) Knowing a great many people "out here," I constantly ask people about their interactions or experience with downtown. Remarkably, there are a few who have lived in the Los Angeles area for decades and yet have been downtown once or twice, and some never at all--in their entire lives yet! (I know, I'm still dumbfounded by such provincialism). But, for those who do get out of this suburban environment and explore life a little more, their experience with downtown is very superficial (e.g. a day visit to the garment district), or if it is more in depth, it usually results in a negative response. I have tried to update these people about the many positive changes that have taken place, but the negatives--"dirty, rundown, too much graffiti, too many homeless and beggars, rough crowd, gangs, difficult parking, high crime,etc., still take hold. I think in some instances some of these negative images go back several decades (if not back to more than half a century ago).
3) Case in point, after graduation form College in the early 1980's I briefly worked for a building contractor who moved to Los Angeles from Florida back in 1951, and lived in Silverlake. Thinking he would be a good historian of the city, I once asked him if he had gone to downtown much, his response was no--only if he "had to." In his view, in the 1950's and 1960's downtown "was a dark and dismal place, with nothing really happening there." Living in Silverlake he was only ten minutes to downtown, yet he would never go there.
These anecdotes serve to point out that no matter rapidness of progress downtown makes concerning its rebirth, its negative image or the perceptions that people hold in their minds takes much longer to undo.
     
     
  #9642  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 6:57 PM
inSaeculaSaeculorum inSaeculaSaeculorum is offline
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Originally Posted by ThreeHundred View Post
You don't see this often. And by this I mean something tall:





http://www.ladowntownnews.com/news/veter...1f8f20c-1c98-11e3-b468-001a4bcf887a.html
That kind of structure is what we need more of in DTLA and I love that this developer is on board in believing in DTLA needing better architecture than 7 woodframe boxes. But I must admit I am having trouble wrapping my mind around a steel+glass skyscraper right in the heart of the historic core. Can't we get this on one of the numerous empty lots in south park instead?
     
     
  #9643  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:05 PM
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Wow. I wasn't anticipating something quite this tall when they said Hellen was considering 20+ floors for the Spring Street garage site. Probably about 440-450 feet here.

Not many places in Downtown where people might be opposed to a high rise, but this is one of them.
     
     
  #9644  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by brudy View Post
At the risk of turning this into another forum war, it's just that it feels like all destination - all nightlife and high end restaurants, not a lot for just a quick bite, or a cool, low key place to grab dinner or a drink. Everything is trying so hard from a design perspective. Where are the quick eats dinner places that don't cost $40 for two people but isn't take out? There are a few places (like Maccheroni Republic), but not many. Where's the equivalent of the 101 Diner? Or the sandwhichy cafes that fill Santa Monica and Weho? We just don't have 'em yet and it's a little frustrating to see two more bars set to open on the same block. Add in the potential for all the theater clubs and the new bar in Spring Arcade and it's starting to feel like only a nightlife neighborhood. Like many other aspects of downtown, there isn't a lot of balance yet.

To be honest, most of the people I know who live downtown don't go out much in downtown on the weekends. Dinner yes, but the bars in the historic core are too full of H&V/B&T. All my opinion and various disclaimers.

Ok - nail me to the cross.
THIS. To add my 2 cents- I also live in Downtown and I have to agree with most of what you say. Don't get me wrong- I love that downtown is getting attention from retailers/restaurant groups that are making these sites "destinations". But there aren't enough casual spots for the average downtown resident to go to. I wish there more places I could visit where I can just grab a nice, relaxed, relatively cheap bite to eat without dressing up or anything (ie The Counter, Maccheroni Republic, etc.). I feel like everything being announced is trying to be the next Baco or the next Bottega. Like brudy said, there needs to be a balance- the best of both worlds. More neighborhood-serving retail is what Downtown needs.

And you hit the nail straight on the head. I try to avoid going out in downtown on Friday/Saturday night because a lot of these bars attract a very pretentious crowd which is for the most part not the case Sunday-Thursday. I heard Ced Moses say once that 80% of business at his various venues Sunday-Thursday comes from Downtown residents. That number flips on Friday/Saturday nights, when 80% of his business comes from outside Downtown.
     
     
  #9645  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:15 PM
Wilcal Wilcal is offline
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Originally Posted by inSaeculaSaeculorum View Post
That kind of structure is what we need more of in DTLA and I love that this developer is on board in believing in DTLA needing better architecture than 7 woodframe boxes. But I must admit I am having trouble wrapping my mind around a steel+glass skyscraper right in the heart of the historic core. Can't we get this on one of the numerous empty lots in south park instead?
Looks to be about 2.75 times the height of the Arcade building, yes it is unprecedented for Spring street (with the exception of the old Bank of America building from the late 1950's), but certainly not other parts of downtown. And, of course better than a "stucco box." Is this Joseph Hellen a credible developer? I mean, not another Barry Shy, who I get the impression produces a lot of "smoke."
     
     
  #9646  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:22 PM
Wilcal Wilcal is offline
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Originally Posted by brudy View Post
Thanks for the update, Blackcat. And nice job on the blog!
Yeah Blackcat your blog is excellent. It you are now in third place in my morning routine: 1) coffee; 2) Los Angeles Times; 3) you!
     
     
  #9647  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by citywatch View Post
that's why I was surprised....assuming I'm not confusing you with another forumer....when you said you were unhappy about new projs not being taller or bigger. I tend to associate that reaction with urbanist fanboys & fangirls who often live far away from dtla. I'm even more puzzled by that reaction when I'm actually in dt....looking at things closely & directly....& come away with the same feeling you have when you note that your hood is dead on sundays. iow, to me it's like getting into a car that has 3 flat tires & complaining about the seats being upholstered in vinyl instead of leather.

but, again, forumers like you & hunterk do live in dt....do see it 24/7....so for ppl like me to judge things....or understand things the way you do....is hard when we don't walk in your shoes.
I agree with you in that the average person couldn't care less whether a building is clad in stucco versus glass or some other high-quality material. Most people wouldn't even notice or think twice about it. For the record, I'm not saying I think it's ok. This is a forum to discuss skyscraper design, after all. But in creating an urban neighborhood, this really doesn't matter.

However, if a project doesn't have retail on the ground floor, or if a project "turns its back" to the street, that is a problem. When I have friends visit me here in Downtown, they don't notice what most people on this forum would consider bad aesthetic design or architecture. They don't notice Watermarke's ugly ass parking podium. They do notice gaps in street activity, homeless people, gated storefronts, blank walls, etc. It's simple urban planning. People feel safe on brightly lit streets where there are others walking around them (not homeless people yelling obscenities at them), and they are distracted by the storefronts around them. It's why people hate walking next to Macy's Plaza on Hope or Flower. Barry Shy's 40 story tower in the historic core with no ground floor retail is a bad project IMO. It does nothing to activate the street.
     
     
  #9648  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:43 PM
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With regards to the architecture of Hellen's proposal, it does appear that the design attempts to integrate an older looking brick facade on the bottom seven floors.

As a side note, Martinez + Cutri also designed 888 S Olive. Their design for "the Stationer," looks like it better integrates itself with its surroundings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilcal View Post
Yeah Blackcat your blog is excellent. It you are now in third place in my morning routine: 1) coffee; 2) Los Angeles Times; 3) you!
Haha...I feel honored! Especially if I make it in before the post coffee BM :-p Seriously though, much thanks to both you and Brudy.

By the way, I didn't want this to get lost in the shuffle:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brudy View Post
On the rumor front, and forgive my ignorance on this if I'm wrong, but I think they were soil testing this week at 5th and Olive (site of Park 5th). They dug several small holes roughly 1-2 feet wide that were pretty deep (they used a tall driller thing), then the next day or two a different group of people were there digging out stuff from said holes, which were then lastly patched. There have been rumors floating around of a potential sale, so who knows.
Sounds like soil testing to me. Maybe a purchaser doing some due dilligence?

From what I can tell, the tentative tract map for Park Fifth hasn't expired yet. Maybe we'll get an announcement soon?
     
     
  #9649  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:55 PM
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Originally Posted by inSaeculaSaeculorum View Post
That kind of structure is what we need more of in DTLA and I love that this developer is on board in believing in DTLA needing better architecture than 7 woodframe boxes. But I must admit I am having trouble wrapping my mind around a steel+glass skyscraper right in the heart of the historic core. Can't we get this on one of the numerous empty lots in south park instead?
Totally agree. I'm one who generally doesn't mind incongruous architecture (ex New Museum in NYC), and I'll like this one wherever he puts it, but it does seem like a strange place for it. I will gladly take it though. Condo build, tall, lots of units, one less parking lot - it all means good things.
     
     
  #9650  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:58 PM
LAofAnaheim LAofAnaheim is offline
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Originally Posted by ziggy331 View Post
THIS. To add my 2 cents- I also live in Downtown and I have to agree with most of what you say. Don't get me wrong- I love that downtown is getting attention from retailers/restaurant groups that are making these sites "destinations". But there aren't enough casual spots for the average downtown resident to go to. I wish there more places I could visit where I can just grab a nice, relaxed, relatively cheap bite to eat without dressing up or anything (ie The Counter, Maccheroni Republic, etc.). I feel like everything being announced is trying to be the next Baco or the next Bottega. Like brudy said, there needs to be a balance- the best of both worlds. More neighborhood-serving retail is what Downtown needs.

And you hit the nail straight on the head. I try to avoid going out in downtown on Friday/Saturday night because a lot of these bars attract a very pretentious crowd which is for the most part not the case Sunday-Thursday. I heard Ced Moses say once that 80% of business at his various venues Sunday-Thursday comes from Downtown residents. That number flips on Friday/Saturday nights, when 80% of his business comes from outside Downtown.
I agree in the fact that downtown is still lacking a full neighborhood. We have pockets of neighborhood-like activity (Spring Street between 5th - 7th, 9th street between Flower and Hope, Arts District cafes, etc...), but we need more connectiveness. I was responding to the first issue when somebody called "downtown a joke...", although that forumer (WilCal) clarified what that meant.

We are a destination, but we need more neighborhoodness. We need places like Panini Cafe, reasonable priced cafes and large scale coffee shops the grandeur size of Urth Cafe, but in a pedestrian urban core, not with its own parking lot and valet.

There is nothing wrong with most of the Friday/Saturday night being crowded by 80% of people outside downtown. I guarantee you would have the same situation in many other world-class cities, where people flock into the central city for a night out, and the rest of the weeknight is made up of locals because they don't like the Friday/Saturday "outsider" groups.

Wow.........I think downtown LA has made "It", if you think about that situation. We are now becoming like other world-class cities. People are flocking to downtown LA on Fri/Sat nights to patronize our businesses and the locals the other nights. This was not happening a decade ago.....
     
     
  #9651  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilcal View Post
Looks to be about 2.75 times the height of the Arcade building, yes it is unprecedented for Spring street (with the exception of the old Bank of America building from the late 1950's), but certainly not other parts of downtown. And, of course better than a "stucco box." Is this Joseph Hellen a credible developer? I mean, not another Barry Shy, who I get the impression produces a lot of "smoke."
He's done the Chester Williams and the Spring Arcade. I know people who live in both and they get good reviews. I've been a few of the units in the CW and they're nice - cool without being too fancy, industrial, or Euro (all styles that I generally appreciate, btw).
     
     
  #9652  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
With regards to the architecture of Hellen's proposal, it does appear that the design attempts to integrate an older looking brick facade on the bottom seven floors.

As a side note, Martinez + Cutri also designed 888 S Olive. Their design for "the Stationer," looks like it better integrates itself with its surroundings.



Haha...I feel honored! Especially if I make it in before the post coffee BM :-p Seriously though, much thanks to both you and Brudy.

By the way, I didn't want this to get lost in the shuffle:



Sounds like soil testing to me. Maybe a purchaser doing some due dilligence?

From what I can tell, the tentative tract map for Park Fifth hasn't expired yet. Maybe we'll get an announcement soon?
A couple months ago, I mentioned a possible sale... This may be the due diligence. The entitlements were going to be extended according to my source
     
     
  #9653  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilcal View Post
Looks to be about 2.75 times the height of the Arcade building, yes it is unprecedented for Spring street (with the exception of the old Bank of America building from the late 1950's), but certainly not other parts of downtown. And, of course better than a "stucco box." Is this Joseph Hellen a credible developer? I mean, not another Barry Shy, who I get the impression produces a lot of "smoke."
Yes, he recently completed the Chester Willaims Building renovation on Broadway, which I consider one of the best historic renovations in the city. This tower is gonna be great.
     
     
  #9654  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 1:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim View Post

There is nothing wrong with most of the Friday/Saturday night being crowded by 80% of people outside downtown. I guarantee you would have the same situation in many other world-class cities, where people flock into the central city for a night out, and the rest of the weeknight is made up of locals because they don't like the Friday/Saturday "outsider" groups.
Yeah, you're right about that. I guess my gripe is that everything seems so 'destination' right now, aiming for an LA Mag writeup or something. And I really don't want downtown to be just a nightlife hub, it has to be a fully evolved community. One gripe about bars is that they aren't open or a lot less active during the day. That's taking day time and early evening street life away. And at night it's super loud and semi-obnoxious. I like bars, don't get me wrong, but we need a lot more casual dining and gathering spaces.
     
     
  #9655  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 1:09 AM
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Blackcat,
Very good observation, I didn't want to mention the BM part, but you still come before that. And for those of you who are not atuned to medical jargon, a BM is a bowel movement.
     
     
  #9656  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 1:16 AM
Wilcal Wilcal is offline
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Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
With regards to the architecture of Hellen's proposal, it does appear that the design attempts to integrate an older looking brick facade on the bottom seven floors.

As a side note, Martinez + Cutri also designed 888 S Olive. Their design for "the Stationer," looks like it better integrates itself with its surroundings.



Haha...I feel honored! Especially if I make it in before the post coffee BM :-p Seriously though, much thanks to both you and Brudy.

By the way, I didn't want this to get lost in the shuffle:



Sounds like soil testing to me. Maybe a purchaser doing some due dilligence?

From what I can tell, the tentative tract map for Park Fifth hasn't expired yet. Maybe we'll get an announcement soon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Illithid Dude View Post
Yes, he recently completed the Chester Willaims Building renovation on Broadway, which I consider one of the best historic renovations in the city. This tower is gonna be great.
I'm glad to hear that. And, as for Barry Shy what is your take on his recent ambitious projects on Main and on Broadway?
     
     
  #9657  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 1:28 AM
Wilcal Wilcal is offline
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Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
Wow. I wasn't anticipating something quite this tall when they said Hellen was considering 20+ floors for the Spring Street garage site. Probably about 440-450 feet here.

Not many places in Downtown where people might be opposed to a high rise, but this is one of them.
Blackcat,

I hope that is not the case. It would be a terrible example of NIMBYISM
     
     
  #9658  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 1:42 AM
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Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim View Post
I agree in the fact that downtown is still lacking a full neighborhood. We have pockets of neighborhood-like activity (Spring Street between 5th - 7th, 9th street between Flower and Hope, Arts District cafes, etc...), but we need more connectiveness. I was responding to the first issue when somebody called "downtown a joke...", although that forumer (WilCal) clarified what that meant.

We are a destination, but we need more neighborhoodness.
This is what I mean when I say downtown isn't all that interesting. It hasn't had time to evolve into an organic neighborhood comprised of locally owned restaurants and shops, a local culture. those who proclaim that downtown "has arrived" are need to think deeper
     
     
  #9659  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 1:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Wilcal View Post
Blackcat,

I hope that is not the case. It would be a terrible example of NIMBYISM
It is by far the dumbest form of NIMBYism.

A friend mine from work lives in Little Tokyo. Like everyone else living nearby, he got a notice in the mail about the St. Vibiana Tower possibly coming back to life a few months back. He said one of his neighbors went door to door in their building trying to rally people to oppose the project at the public hearing.

You move to one of the only neighborhoods in Los Angeles with high rise buildings, and then complain when developers want to build more of them?
     
     
  #9660  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2013, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by blackcat23 View Post
It is by far the dumbest form of NIMBYism.

A friend mine from work lives in Little Tokyo. Like everyone else living nearby, he got a notice in the mail about the St. Vibiana Tower possibly coming back to life a few months back. He said one of his neighbors went door to door in their building trying to rally people to oppose the project at the public hearing.

You move to one of the only neighborhoods in Los Angeles with high rise buildings, and then complain when developers want to build more of them?
It takes time and effort but it seems like most people here are intelligent and dedicated to smart growth and vibrant downtown. Why don't you start a group to advocate for these goals. We have done this in DC: http://ward3vision.org/. Showing up at public meetings and lobbying local elected officials and Office of Planning staff can make a difference.
     
     
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