PHILADELPHIA | The Development Thread VIII

[ILovePhilly]

Originally Posted by palvar

I love trains as much as the next guy, but my friends who visit from New York always take Bolt Bus/Megabus. They complain that Amtrak is too expensive, rather than too slow. Could Amtrak focus instead on reducing its ticket prices?

The trains are crazy expensive. Your friends and mine may take Bolt Bus/Megabus but we all know how Jack Donaghy and the other Kabletown execs feel about the bus...

Amtrak, like all other transportation in the country, relies on government money for some of its operations and much of its capital budget. Amtrak tickets are priced the way they are because they receive such a piddling little amount of money from Congress. Also, on the Northeast Corridor trains are sold out more often than not and Amtrak is making a profit (on operations, not capital). With their constant budget woes and having to ask Congress for reauthorization all the time they don't have the political capital they need to lower prices and go back and ask for more money.

I'm sure you've heard before but it's worth repeating that private automobiles (and bus companies that use highways) are subsidized with tens of billions of federal dollars annually in highway, paving, plowing, and maintenance, and airlines are subsidized with billions of federal dollars through the operation of the FAA and in runway expansion money.

If Congress wanted to prioritized Amtrak or public transportation they could do so in a snap by altering transportation spending or giving Amtrak the money it needs to support operations and maintenance without the use (or less use) of fare revenue.

If you want Congress to support Amtrak you should write to your Congressman. I do it about once every other month. There is so much research that's been done about how increased connectivity and decreased travel time induce demand (as if there isn't enough demand between NYC and PHL) and increase economic activity. There was an article in the paper some time this spring/winter about the study of HSR in England and how based on that research Philadelphia is perfectly poised to realize the biggest benefits of HSR service. That's the kind of stuff that a) makes this post relevant to development and b) Congress people need to hear.

[josef]

Originally Posted by ILovePhilly

If you want Congress to support Amtrak you should write to your Congressman. I do it about once every other month. There is so much research that's been done about how increased connectivity and decreased travel time induce demand (as if there isn't enough demand between NYC and PHL) and increase economic activity. There was an article in the paper some time this spring/winter about the study of HSR in England and how based on that research Philadelphia is perfectly poised to realize the biggest benefits of HSR service. That's the kind of stuff that a) makes this post relevant to development and b) Congress people need to hear.

Agreed.

Senators: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Representatives: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Seriously though, busses are for masochists. I assume your friends don't travel during rush hour. I've been on both Chinatown and Bolt busses, and I hope to never, ever take either again. But then, the reason I personally love taking the train, why I do it every single day, is because sitting in traffic frustrates the hell out of me. Wasting my time is possibly my least favorite thing to do. (And time is money, right?)

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Philly video on Philly.com

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Philly_is_Ugly.html

I saw it too and thought that it was awesome!

[MSFHQ]

Buy Amtrak tickets in advance. Amtrak is broke because it has to keep operating services across the country on privately owned tracks. Why we need rail services from Chicago to Seattle is beyond me. The NE Corridor is one of the few if only areas Amtrak makes money.

Europe pushed freight travel off the tracks for the benefit of personal rail travel. In the US you can't do this as most of the track are owned by private companies. I'd kill off 90% of the Amtrak service and just focus on small sections that connect close by cities.


HSR is nice, but I don't see it revolutionizing Philly.

[MSFHQ]

Oh, if you want to do the rail cheap, just take Septa to Trenton and the NJT to Penn. Costs like $20 bucks and is only a little longer than Amtrak.

[josef]

Originally Posted by MSFHQ

Buy Amtrak tickets in advance

Oh yeah, totally do this. If you buy tickets further than two weeks out, the tickets cost less.

[PhiLaw]

Originally Posted by ILovePhilly

Amtrak, like all other transportation in the country, relies on government money for some of its operations and much of its capital budget. Amtrak tickets are priced the way they are because they receive such a piddling little amount of money from Congress. Also, on the Northeast Corridor trains are sold out more often than not and Amtrak is making a profit (on operations, not capital). With their constant budget woes and having to ask Congress for reauthorization all the time they don't have the political capital they need to lower prices and go back and ask for more money.

I'm sure you've heard before but it's worth repeating that private automobiles (and bus companies that use highways) are subsidized with tens of billions of federal dollars annually in highway, paving, plowing, and maintenance, and airlines are subsidized with billions of federal dollars through the operation of the FAA and in runway expansion money.

Amtrak is not priced high because it receives little money from Congress. Amtrak is priced high because it costs a lot of money to run the trains. Ipads, computer desks, drink coasters, pens, pencils, degree frames and coffee mugs all share the commonality of not receiving any direct subsidies from Congress. Despite this, they're pretty cheap. That's because the marginal cost of making it is fairly cheap, and they operate in a competitive market.

Asking everybody in the country to subsidize your preference for trains is one thing - but boohooing because they don't dole out enough to subsidize it is quite another.

Trains will come down in price when the demand is there (as irrational as that sounds). Capital will pour in, efficiencies will be captured, and so the cycle goes with the profit motive.

I'll take my collective in increments, please.

[mPhilly]

PhiLaw, I respectfully disagree completely. I'm generally a capitalist and against too much government intervention in the private markets, but trains NEED government funding. The benefits of train travel (especially and maybe only in the Northeast corridor) make it a public need. They reduce traffic congestion, reduce pollution, increase mobility of the workforce, and can travel safely at speeds that cars cannot over long distances (and planes cannot over short distances). As I'm sure you know, increasing the mobility of human capital allows a more efficient use of that resource which would have clear economic gains. Additionally, reduced travel times on an incredibly oft used commute would have societal advantages. This is especially true in an age where dual wage earning couples are quickly becoming the norm.

The costs of construction and the barriers to entry mean that capital must come from the government. Private investment cannot work in a market with barriers to entry so high. Unlike cars or planes, railroads cannot effectively sustain multiple companies operating on the through ways and each company could never afford to build its own railroad tracks.

As for demand, it clearly exists. I spent 2 years of my life commuting between NYC and Philadelphia for a variety of reasons. Bus, train, or car, the way is packed during rush hour each and every day. Have you tried getting into the Lincoln tunnel at 8am? You'll find plenty of PA license plates mixed in with the NJ and NY ones every single morning on your commute. The trains are packed and sold out. The buses are likewise soldout and about 6 companies run buses many of them every half hour. That IS demand.

Your argument that we shouldn't ask for more of a subsidy can be said of anything. You could argue we shouldn't have paid for the interstate highway system (a subsidy to cars), the Hoover dam (a subsidy to farmers and businesses in the area), or any other public works project. This country's greatness was built on infrastructure. And heck its one of most pressing reasons our government exists. So yes, there should be more subsidy of the train system especially in the Northeast.

[ILovePhilly]

PhiLaw you can be irrational and wrong all you would like but if you could do it in such a way that wasn't so rude and disrespectful (fuming whip icons, really?) I would appreciate it.

Amtrak tickets are priced high because ticket revenue + Congressional budget and state support must = operations and maintenance costs. Therefor more money from Congress could lower ticket prices regardless of demand. Demand is so high on the NEC that Amtrak is able to keep raising prices without denting ridership. More money from Congress could allow Amtrak to increase capacity and therefor provide greater supply to meet demand, which could allow Amtrak to lower prices.

[sayitaintso]

I don't have any specifics but phones were ringing off the hook today and Liberty had a marathon meeting of the bigwigs.

Could the meeting have been for something else? Yes.

Do the bigwigs lock themselves in a meeting all day with no access for piddly — shite ? No

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

I don't have any specifics but phones were ringing off the hook today and Liberty had a marathon meeting of the bigwigs.

Could the meeting have been for something else? Yes.

Do the bigwigs lock themselves in a meeting all day with no access for piddly — shite ? No

It also could be a wrinkle - time will tell

To me anything this month is still credible, large endeavors take time

[summersm343]

Renders should be released to the public soon of the 23rd and Arch Riverside development. Saw them today. They are pretty nice.

Also, expect a second large residential development to be announced shortly in Center City.

1528 Cherry Street (the lot behind the new Family Court building and 1515 Arch) has a 19 story tower propsed for it. We're thinking office, but it may be residential as well.

Lastly, PMC Property Group (developed 2040 Market and developing 1900 Arch) is proposing a 26 story tower at 23rd and Cherry parking lot

[PhiLaw]

Originally Posted by ILovePhilly

PhiLaw you can be irrational and wrong all you would like but if you could do it in such a way that wasn't so rude and disrespectful (fuming whip icons, really?) I would appreciate it.

Amtrak tickets are priced high because ticket revenue + Congressional budget and state support must = operations and maintenance costs. Therefor more money from Congress could lower ticket prices regardless of demand. Demand is so high on the NEC that Amtrak is able to keep raising prices without denting ridership. More money from Congress could allow Amtrak to increase capacity and therefor provide greater supply to meet demand, which could allow Amtrak to lower prices.

Either you have the nerves of a 12 year old or you're resorting to popular appeal - if you you take the whimsical, playful icons as disparaging then god help you if you face a bit of real adversity in your life.

There was nothing irrational about what I said. The other poster's description about his morning commutes to NYC is true. But he is staring through the barrel of a — so hard he can't see the — itself. Indeed, NYC and environs have demand for passenger trains. But on balance, the US demand for this service is very weak.We have to look at proportions. Asking a National Legislature (therefore, ALL citizens of the US)to pay for the unique commuting habits of various metro areas in our country is not good policy. A bit of a nudge from a consortium of NY,NJ, PA and CT may be prudent - but forcing coal miners in WV to is not.

[PhiLaw]

And by the way, I actually intended the whip icons to be placed above my last sentence n the post -where Iwas anticipated being taking to task for my argument.

Is this what happens when all kids get first place trophies in little league? Ed Rendell is smirking over at the Mellon Bank Building.

[PhiLaw]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

I don't have any specifics but phones were ringing off the hook today and Liberty had a marathon meeting of the bigwigs.

Could the meeting have been for something else? Yes.

Do the bigwigs lock themselves in a meeting all day with no access for piddly — shite ? No

You have not lost credibility. Trust me if you hadI'd be the first to allude to it. I've been hearing lots of chatter as well. And not only re Comcast/NBC - other companies moving to town. My one piece of advise would be to ALWAYS qualify. Ever notice how before a big presidential debate the respective parties talk the day before about the people should not expect a huge win for their party? It's for a reason.

[PhiLaw]

One last thing. Axalta (correct?) already has a few office workers in Commerce Square II - i was there today. I'm curious why there hasn't been any presser about it? Summer, can you find anything?

[Plokoon11]

What kind of building are we talking about In 23rd and arch? Floors? ect. Thanks in advance!

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Plokoon11

What kind of building are we talking about In 23rd and arch? Floors? ect. Thanks in advance!

The renders I saw had two towers. One approx 30+ floors, one approx 20+ floors. Also a parking garage covered by rowhomes similar to the Edgewater development. Didn't have time to count exact floors.

[summersm343]

Old Philadelphia Stock Exchange (1900 Market) redevelopment

[summersm343]

260 S Broad retail redevelopment