HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #3321  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2013, 6:18 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Gros Méchant Loup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SSP Graveyard
Posts: 72,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjones2451 View Post

It — that the liquor laws in Canada don't allow for it because I think in some markets (ie: Van, Tor and Mtl) it would help with the fan interest and attendance in the CFL
.
I believe that liquor laws in Canada are provincial and although there are some differences when it comes to drinking in the streets and in public places they are quite similar in Quebec to the rest of the country in that it is officially forbidden.

Of course this being Quebec the rules always get a little bent and this is why the francophone universities (Laval, Montréal, Sherbrooke) can have pretty big tailgate parties outside their stadiums.

I am not 100% sure about the Alouettes though - but it's not impossible there is drinking outside the stadium since everything seems a bit looser when it comes to booze in Quebec.
     
     
  #3322  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2013, 6:26 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Lots of questions answered (and raised) about MLSE, The Argos and the NFL by Richard Peddie former CEO MLSE on PrimeTime Sports

Highlights: MLSE looked at buying Argos three times, the last was two years ago (before TV revenue increase). Figured they could profit by a million/year (not enough)

NBA didn't want to come to Canada, but NBA owners wanted the large franchise fee

No real benefit for NFL to come to Canada

Don't take my interpretation, listen for yourself.
     
     
  #3323  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2013, 11:30 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
North of Gilead
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North of Gilead
Posts: 11,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
It's calling Toronto the flagship franchise that I take issue with. That's been what Edmonton was for decades and what Saskatchewan is increasingly becoming. There's a difference between what a flagship franchise is (generally your strongest franchise) and what a strategically important market for future business considerations is.
I agree with you there. Toronto used to be a flag ship franchise, but its value is largely historic at this point. That said, the Argonauts are the oldest pro football team in north America and it's resurgence should be of interest to all people who value this country's culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
I already addressed the fact that the article talks about all teams being dependent on Toronto corporations for sponsorship, which is not the case at present as the Western teams are majority-sponsored by local market or generally western companies, just as Montreal is largely sponsored by Quebec-based corporations.
The CFL is gate driven, but media matters a great deal. This country's media is largely Toronto based. A league can not continue to be a national institution with coverage across media platforms if Toronto based media decide they aren't going to bother covering it. Media coverage will become localized and probably never claw its way back again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Removing any of the traditional markets at this point would be a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
That's what it boils down to.
     
     
  #3324  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2013, 11:35 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
North of Gilead
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North of Gilead
Posts: 11,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Maybe things will pick up for the Argonauts down the road, but right now that franchise is being carried by Regina, Winnipeg, Edmonton, etc.
Quite right, but the CFL can ill afford to cede the largest market in the country to the NFL. How long do you think Hamilton will last with no team in Toronto? The east would fall like dominoes. You'd be left with 5 teams in the West.
     
     
  #3325  
Old Posted Sep 10, 2013, 11:53 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
North of Gilead
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North of Gilead
Posts: 11,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am pretty much the same. I don't have anything more than a passing interest for the NFL for this reason, and find it downright bizarre that someone in Sudbury, Ontario or Brandon, Manitoba can be a die-hard, obsessive Dallas Cowboys or Indianapolis Colts fan with the custom licence plate cover, 300-dollar jerseys, custom bed linen for the kids...

I guess I maybe get it if people are from Windsor (Detroit) or Fort Erie (Buffalo) in Ontario, but other than that...

I guess I am just a person with too strong a sense of place and cultural identity to go along with that.

Some would call me less open-minded for that I suppose, but I don't see it that way at all.

I'm interested in plenty stuff from around the world, but I still can differentiate between what's "mine" and what isn't.

And that doesn't mean I won't like something simply because it isn't "mine"... but somehow I get the impression a lot of people are on the extreme opposite end: they go out of their way to ignore what's "theirs".

OK, all of this was hopelessly convoluted I realize...
That's largely where I'm coming from as well. I might add that in a world of globalization we should treasure the things that are our own instead of being in a mad rush to become mirror images of everywhere else. Canadians often complain about having a lack of identity. Well here we have something that we didn't import from anywhere. It's one of those national institutions that brings Canadians closer together instead of continually looking south. Besides, can't we for once do something without the Americans?

The CFL has made Canada culturally richer. It would be richer still if Torontonians returned to the fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't know if anyone else has noticed but it appears these days there is a trend at NFL games where the entire crowd stands for every play.
I actually prefer to stand for the entire game, be it basketball or football. The only thing that prevents me from doing it is grandpa behind me who can't see. You're far more invested in the game when you stand. When you sit, your attention drifts elsewhere. Hot dog?

Last edited by isaidso; Sep 11, 2013 at 12:04 AM.
     
     
  #3326  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2013, 12:13 AM
chrisallard5454's Avatar
chrisallard5454 chrisallard5454 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Calgary sort of turns a blind eye and allows a bit of tailgating and the Riders throw an official tailgate party on the practice field next to the stadium before every game with beer gardens, food, children's entertainment (air play-structures, face painting, etc), live music sometimes, there's a smallish drumline they just started up with co-operation from the U of R conservatory that did a little performance before heading to the stadium, the pep band... The Riders have done a pretty good job in turning gameday into an event, and one that has something for basically all ages. I'd say at least 5k fans cycle through there before heading to their seats in the stadium, possibly more this year due to averaging 40k fans per game. Do any of the other teams do that at all?


Also, perhaps a mod should come in and flop some of this convo to the CFL Current and Future franchises thread? As interesting as this discussion is (and I've been fully a part of it), it's kind of really starting to get off of the Stadium/Arena construction theme. The health of a national sports league definitely makes national arenas/stadiums possible, but it's starting to get a bit tangential.
The Bombers have occasional official tail-gates almost identical to the ones you described. There last one was for the Banjo Bowl. Every game there are "Blind-eye" tailgates though, with barbecues, and beer galore in the parking lots.
     
     
  #3327  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2013, 12:13 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
North of Gilead
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: North of Gilead
Posts: 11,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Calgary sort of turns a blind eye and allows a bit of tailgating and the Riders throw an official tailgate party on the practice field next to the stadium before every game with beer gardens, food, children's entertainment (air play-structures, face painting, etc), live music sometimes, there's a smallish drumline they just started up with co-operation from the U of R conservatory that did a little performance before heading to the stadium, the pep band... The Riders have done a pretty good job in turning gameday into an event, and one that has something for basically all ages. I'd say at least 5k fans cycle through there before heading to their seats in the stadium, possibly more this year due to averaging 40k fans per game. Do any of the other teams do that at all?
I know that it's not possible at Argonauts games, but I have tailgated at Ivor Wynne in Hamilton. It was a playoff game so I don't know if it was a regular occurrence. People parked in an adjacent school field. We got there about 6 hours before the game and the place was already jam packed, I'd say about 3000 people.

In CIS, I know they tailgate at Quebec schools. Liquor laws are more liberal there so I imagine it would be possible at Alouettes games but there isn't any place next to the stadium where you can park. BMO Field in Toronto is almost made for tailgating. There's tons of parking right next to it.
     
     
  #3328  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2013, 2:43 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Quite right, but the CFL can ill afford to cede the largest market in the country to the NFL. How long do you think Hamilton will last with no team in Toronto? The east would fall like dominoes. You'd be left with 5 teams in the West.
Why is Hamilton dependent on Toronto? Or Montreal or Ottawa for that matter.
     
     
  #3329  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2013, 1:15 AM
Dalreg's Avatar
Dalreg Dalreg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Why is Hamilton dependent on Toronto? Or Montreal or Ottawa for that matter.
Because he said so....
     
     
  #3330  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 1:24 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Some background on BMO as a soccer only stadium (from 2008)

BMO built with football in mind
DAVID NAYLOR Globe and Mail Aug. 13 2008

Toronto Argonauts co-owner Howard Sokolowski insists the notion that BMO Field was intended to be a soccer-specific stadium is incorrect.

And there appears to be evidence to back him up.

Toronto city council minutes from the fall of 2005, at which $9.8-million of city money was committed to the complex, note that the stadium proposed for the exhibition grounds was to be "capable of a conversion to a football format."

However, the 20,000-seat stadium, built initially for the FIFA U-20 World Cup soccer tournament last year, doesn't fit a regulation CFL field, making it unusable for the Argonauts as well as amateur football teams.

Now, as the Argos are in the process of surveying fan support for a potential move from the CFL team's home, the Rogers Centre, to BMO Field, there has been considerable push-back from soccer fans and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, the owner of the stadium's primary occupant, Major League Soccer's Toronto FC.

"This is not a soccer-specific stadium," Sokolowski said yesterday. "It was built for soccer, but it clearly had an understanding that it was convertible for football and to be expanded to 30,000 seats. That's what city council voted on."

Sokolowski believes Mayor David Miller is doing his best to live up to council's promise of nearly three years ago, even though the stadium would require some reconstruction to accommodate a CFL field.

"The mayor has been very helpful," Sokolowski said. "He wants to please soccer and football fans together. There's no reason they can't coexist. This isn't the Hatfields and the McCoys, but I'm not sure [MLSE president]Richard Peddie feels that way.

"The mayor has told us a number of times that if the Toronto Argonauts want to come to BMO Field, he'll do all he can within the confines of his lease agreement with MLSE."

The lease agreement gives MLSE control of all stadium revenue streams, which are then shared with the city. Though the city might back a potential Argos request to be cut into some of the revenue streams, there's no indication MLSE would accommodate such a request.

It could also be argued that a stadium that requires construction to move stands to accommodate football does not necessarily meet the definition of "capable of conversion to a football format." But a spokesman for the Toronto mayor says it does.

"What we have is a $70-million public asset that is in the shape of a stadium," Stuart Green said. "The primary occupant is the game of soccer, and what council said [in 2005]is there has to be some compatibility option [for football]there.

"It has to be an option because that was built into the approval council gave. How that happens has to be worked out."

Sokolowski said the Argos have been willing to talk about that for some time, but are being put off by Peddie.

Peddie said this week that MLSE hadn't made up its mind whether to pursue stadium expansion to meet the current demand from Toronto FC fans.

"I had a meeting with Richard Peddie three or four months ago, and he informed me that in late August there may be a time to sit down and talk about what they want to see in the stadium expansion," Sokolowski said. "Now, I understand it's not on his radar screen. I spoke to Richard last week by e-mail and it's not a priority for him right now.

"Whether we could write a cheque [for stadium expansion]or help secure funds, I'm not sure. But the Toronto Argonauts could be part of making that happen."

Yesterday, Peddie said he had talked with Sokolowski, but called the topic of discussion "premature."

"It's not cheap to expand that building," Peddie said. "It's millions and millions of dollars. We haven't nailed down cost and determined if there's a return on investment, and won't for months. It's not a matter of accommodation.

"We're just not ready."
     
     
  #3331  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 1:37 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
MLSE knows David Braley is crazy enough and has the resources to build a stadium. This guy gave McMaster 5 million and Mohawk College 3 million to help build athletic centres. MLSE does not want another facility around for competition. Braley is an auto parts magnate, owns construction companies and has political connections, he can get it done.
David William Naylor@TSNDaveNaylor

No indication that MLSE wants to buy Argos. None. Braley is one of the biggest land developers in Ont ... Commercial development
     
     
  #3332  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 3:32 AM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Just doing some more due diligence on David Braley. To those who may think he's a small timer because of his involvement with the CFL and doesn't have the resources to put together a stadium deal, here's the poop.

Getting to know Argos owner David Braley

While his charitable works are too numerous to mention here, it’s worth highlighting what the Hamilton Spectator once described as a “stunning ten month stretch” from August of 2006 to June of 2007, when he gave $5 million to McMaster University for a new athletic complex, $10 million to Hamilton Health Sciences for a cardiac, vascular and stroke research institute, $5 million to St. Joseph’s Healthcare for operating rooms and kidney urinary care, and $50 million to McMaster’s medical school. ($3 million to Mohawk - elly)

Argos, Lions owner David Braley a pillar of strength for CFL

That he became one of the country’s most relentless businessmen, a master of the angles — his net worth is said to awe his fellow CFL owners
     
     
  #3333  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 6:30 AM
ScreamingViking's Avatar
ScreamingViking ScreamingViking is offline
Ham-burgher
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 7,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
Why is Hamilton dependent on Toronto? Or Montreal or Ottawa for that matter.
I'd like to know too.
     
     
  #3334  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:41 AM
Nathan's Avatar
Nathan Nathan is offline
Hmm....
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
I'd like to know too.
In my opinion it would be more that each traditional division is interdependent with it's fellow divisional teams as generally these games are better attended and more teams in a concentrated area will generate a bit more media attention (although Southern Ontario media generally defies this logic and prefers to ignore/slag the CFL).
     
     
  #3335  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 4:16 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
Hamilton Virtual Venue
Stadium looks to be more enclosed than I initially thought. The Hamilton (end zone) end or Seagram Touchdown Lounge as it is now called looks elevated (judging by the shadow below) and enclosed. The opposite end (Coors Light Patio) doesn't seem as enclosed but I'm blind as a bat and could be wrong, going by these images.


Hamilton Southwest night view


Hamilton Northeast day view
     
     
  #3336  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 4:40 PM
elly63 elly63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,783
City of Ottawa
September 13, 2013

- The contractor began to install the first bases for the Veil this week. The actual wooden components of the Veil are not expected to arrive until October.
- Inside the south stands, all of the systems and piping that make a building function are being installed, including the electrical, mechanical and plumbing conduit.
- On the first level, the partition walls for the concessions are being built and steel studs for interior and exterior sheathing are being put in.
- In the north stands, repairs to the concrete are continuing in preparation for the new seat installation later this month.
- Painting of the large roof beams over the north stands continues.



Looking at the stadium from Bank Street, the base for the new residential building is being constructed near the stadium.


Workers repair the precast concrete at the north stands.


The new south stands rises over the Rideau Canal.
     
     
  #3337  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 6:51 PM
cjones2451's Avatar
cjones2451 cjones2451 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Port Moody, BC
Posts: 889
Really excited for the CFL over the next 5-10 years

New Big Television contract with TSN (lets hope the salary cap goes up too) so we can see and retain better quality players, etc.

New or majorly renovated Stadiums (with lots of talk about Toronto and Calgary now) in all markets

Realignment with Winnipeg back to the west, and OTtawa next year but now it just SCREAMING for a 10th team to fill out the east. C'mon Halifax, Quebec City, Moncton or someone, step up and build that stadium.

Canadians (and most of them are or have the potential, other than a few NFL flag wavers in Toronto) should be proud of this league, how it has weathered some big storms and now seems on the rise with the sky being the limit.
     
     
  #3338  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:07 PM
Nathan's Avatar
Nathan Nathan is offline
Hmm....
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 3,505
My only qualm is that I still wish the playoffs and Grey Cup would be broadcast on the mother network CTV.
     
     
  #3339  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:11 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Gros Méchant Loup
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: SSP Graveyard
Posts: 72,949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
My only qualm is that I still wish the playoffs and Grey Cup would be broadcast on the mother network CTV.
You consider CTV to be a "mother network"?
     
     
  #3340  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2013, 7:13 PM
ScreamingViking's Avatar
ScreamingViking ScreamingViking is offline
Ham-burgher
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 7,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
In my opinion it would be more that each traditional division is interdependent with it's fellow divisional teams as generally these games are better attended and more teams in a concentrated area will generate a bit more media attention (although Southern Ontario media generally defies this logic and prefers to ignore/slag the CFL).
Through much of the 1980s and 90s the Tiger-Cats were doing very poorly attendance-wise, and the Toronto games were a huge boost (they used to make a big deal out of it, in fact I believe there were t-shirts one year commemorating "the sellout" with an aerial photo of the stadium from that Labour Day game). Many fans felt if they made it out to that one LD game they had done their part. Problem was the team didn't do much to try and change that attitude.

So if Toronto had folded back then, it very likely would have dragged the Cats down too. The loss of Montreal and Ottawa franchises at various times wasn't easy to survive either.

But today I think things are very different. The Young regime hasn't been able to field a consistent winner but from a marketing and business standpoint the team is strong. Attendance has been more stable, and given a better record would probably have been at or close to capacity on a regular basis (as it was during Young's first few years owning the team). The season ticket base is a lot higher. Corporate sponsorships are way up. TV money is a lot bigger. Revenue from concessions and merchandise is a key source of income. And with the new stadium coming the team will be able to generate a lot more money from box and club seats; also, fewer freebies will be given out.

Losing the Argos as a major rival would sting, but I don't think it would take the Tiger-Cats down. There might be an effect on Toronto viewership (though there are still probably a lot of CFL fans in the GTA who would continue watching) and league corporate sponsorship, which might impact shared revenues for the league, but in my opinion it wouldn't be devastating.

That said, I still don't agree with the NFL death-knell that the Sun article discussed. So I doubt the Argos would die... they would still have a niche in the sports market.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:01 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.