ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by Jarod Apperson

My issue with Buckhead is just the traffic. But they will also make that area a less desirable place to live.

I don't particularly care for the traffic in Buckhead (or Midtown for that matter). But clearly there's a market segment with purchasing power that doesn't agree with you on the latter point.

[Tuckerman]

With regard to the Atlanta skyscraper scene we need to give up comparing ATL with NYC, SF and Chicago. Atlanta will never and IMO could never look like any of these three. It is dubious in any case to simply compare cities, but if we are to compare, the logical ones would be Houston, Dallas and Phoenix - these are the cities that are about the same size metros, have had most of their heavy development in the past few decades, and are still growing very fast compared to most other large metros in the US. Aside from Houston, none of these have highly developed skyscraper downtowns and even Houston suffers still from huge areas of street level parking lots. They also have their highly developed non center areas, Houston's medical center, etc. Initially they were all highly suburban and residential with vast stretches of single family homes. And, they are all highly dependent on air conditioning. These are the cities that are the appropriate ones for urban planners to look at because they are all the future big American cities.

I simply cannot believe that we will ever see pedestrian street traffic at a high level in any of these newer cities, aside from those times when there is a festival, celebration, ball game or whatever. The idea of a continuous walkable city is a dream, unless you can convince people that walking for miles in blistering heat is a good thing for their health. The alternative is much more likely to be the Atlantic Station, quasi-mall, streetscape that people drive to and then get out and walk a bit. The idea that one would walk from Underground to Lenox along Peachtree is an idea whose time will not come.

[clexmond]

I know many of you have visited the development map at http://map.atlantadev.com and I wanted to let you know we've added a lot of the more recent projects and in addition I've added a feature to allow deep-linking on the map (similar to Google Maps). You can now click on the little link icon at the top of the sidebar and copy the link. It will retain the position and zoom so if you're talking about the new Lenox Square proposal you can link directly to it like so: http://map.atlantadev.com/?lat=33.84431259268867&lng=-84.35874599333191&zoom=17.

Also, I've setup some simple (Atlanta only) forums at http://forum.atlantadev.com. I don't intend to pull people away from here, but the discussion will be a little more moderated in the hopes we can avoid some of the OT flame wars we've seen a little too much of here lately.

As always, if I've missed anything on the map please let me know!

[RobMidtowner]

Why is it a bad thing to criticize Buckhead for not having adequate infrastructure for the current level of density, let alone all these proposed projects? It's not an issue to take personally, it's about including everything necessary to have a functional city. What I don't get is why are so many people in Atlanta resistant to good city planning? Yes Buckhead has a lot of nice "big city" amenities, great woohoo! But it is not set up like a big city in it's current layout. There is a reason why every big urban city has a street grid. It's not even just a grid, it's connectivity of roadways. The more connecting roadways you have, the more room to disperse traffic volume. The fact that Buckhead doesn't have this is nothing to take offense about. It is just a reality that doesn't translate well to dense development. Unfortunately, there are no plans to add any new roads and increase connectivity so traffic will only get worse.

[SAV]

aren't these new developments happening near Marta stations? you have to assume some of the new residents will not drive all the time.

and is traffic in Buckhead really THAT bad? I know its not easy breezy, but I've only seen traffic over there during rush hour and some weekends.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Why is it a bad thing to criticize Buckhead for not having adequate infrastructure for the current level of density, let alone all these proposed projects? It's not an issue to take personally, it's about including everything necessary to have a functional city. What I don't get is why are so many people in Atlanta resistant to good city planning? Yes Buckhead has a lot of nice "big city" amenities, great woohoo! But it is not set up like a big city in it's current layout. There is a reason why every big urban city has a street grid. It's not even just a grid, it's connectivity of roadways. The more connecting roadways you have, the more room to disperse traffic volume. The fact that Buckhead doesn't have this is nothing to take offense about. It is just a reality that doesn't translate well to dense development. Unfortunately, there are no plans to add any new roads and increase connectivity so traffic will only get worse.

I really don't think anyone here is resistant to good city planning. The number one issue with traffic there is that it is restricted to a few major streets. The connectivity issue is pretty bad, but that isn't going to change for one very simple reason - all of the nice sfh neighborhoods that are adjacent to these major corridors. They absolutely will not tolerate cut-through traffic, and I can't say that I blame them. It's a major issue, and I really don't see a solution short of leveling vast and pricey neighborhoods to retrofit everything. And that will NEVER happen.

[ChrisInmanPark]

Originally Posted by SAV

aren't these new developments happening near Marta stations? you have to assume some of the new residents will not drive all the time.

and is traffic in Buckhead really THAT bad? I know its not easy breezy, but I've only seen traffic over there during rush hour and some weekends.

Traffic is bad in Buckhead because vehicle traffic only gets funneled into a couple roads (Peachtree, Lenox, Piedmont). The area is divided up into massive super blocks which is terrible for walkablility and for giving drivers other options.

It is good that these developments are close to MARTA, but people in Buckhead still don't seem to use it. There is a reason the the Buckhead station is one of the least used in the system.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by SAV

aren't these new developments happening near Marta stations? you have to assume some of the new residents will not drive all the time.

and is traffic in Buckhead really THAT bad? I know its not easy breezy, but I've only seen traffic over there during rush hour and some weekends.

It's pretty bad, BUT every part of the city has traffic issues. Events downtown are always causing traffic nightmares, and midtown can be just as bad even if nothing is going on. We can all agree that with all the development, traffic will INCREASE in midtown, buckhead, and downtown. Just looking at it I'd guess traffic will go up the most in buckhead, while getting a little worse in midtown, with downtown bringing up the rear as it has the least amount of residential dev going on at the moment.

I'm excited about all the new development, and think whats good for buckhead is also good for midtown and downtown (and the other way around). I live downtown and wish there was more going on down here, but theres been such a huge turnaround the past 2 years it's only a matter of time. IF traffic becomes too crazy people will start to leave buckhead for other areas of the city, or it'll apply pressure to expand public transportation, marta, streetcars whatever. Either way whatever happens is good

[66native]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

Why is it a bad thing to criticize Buckhead for not having adequate infrastructure for the current level of density, let alone all these proposed projects? It's not an issue to take personally, it's about including everything necessary to have a functional city. What I don't get is why are so many people in Atlanta resistant to good city planning? Yes Buckhead has a lot of nice "big city" amenities, great woohoo! But it is not set up like a big city in it's current layout. There is a reason why every big urban city has a street grid. It's not even just a grid, it's connectivity of roadways. The more connecting roadways you have, the more room to disperse traffic volume. The fact that Buckhead doesn't have this is nothing to take offense about. It is just a reality that doesn't translate well to dense development. Unfortunately, there are no plans to add any new roads and increase connectivity so traffic will only get worse.

Well said RobMidtowner. Thanks for expressing some of the frustration I was feeling while reading some of the post regarding this topic.

And might I add that in addition to the connectivity provided by a street grid for better traffic circulation, there's also the typical infrastructure (sewer, utilities, etc.) beneath the street. Getting this infrastructure to as many people and businesses as possible is accomplished most efficiently and economically when distributed in some sort of grid. City planning 101.

And to Scania's question about areas in the city that have existing street grids and are underdeveloped, how about all of south downtown and a good bit of midtown.

[L.ARCH]

Originally Posted by clexmond

I know many of you have visited the development map at http://map.atlantadev.com and I wanted to let you know we've added a lot of the more recent projects and in addition I've added a feature to allow deep-linking on the map (similar to Google Maps). You can now click on the little link icon at the top of the sidebar and copy the link. It will retain the position and zoom so if you're talking about the new Lenox Square proposal you can link directly to it like so: http://map.atlantadev.com/?lat=33.84431259268867&lng=-84.35874599333191&zoom=17.

Also, I've setup some simple (Atlanta only) forums at http://forum.atlantadev.com. I don't intend to pull people away from here, but the discussion will be a little more moderated in the hopes we can avoid some of the OT flame wars we've seen a little too much of here lately.

As always, if I've missed anything on the map please let me know!

This is fantastic! Thank you!!!

[scania]

Originally Posted by 66native

And to Scania's question about areas in the city that have existing street grids and are underdeveloped, how about all of south downtown and a good bit of midtown.

I actually totally agree about the street grid in Downtown(all of Downtown). The reason why I asked specifically about midtown, is because I personally don't see it...yes there is a very small radius that I know of that has a street grid, but no one has given any streets. People pride gets offended when I ask the question, and instead of answering, they waste time complaining and never give a true answer.

[scania]

Originally Posted by SAV

aren't these new developments happening near Marta stations? you have to assume some of the new residents will not drive all the time.

and is traffic in Buckhead really THAT bad? I know its not easy breezy, but I've only seen traffic over there during rush hour and some weekends.

This is TRUE!!! There is no traffic issue besides rush hour. And yes, during rush hour its bad everywhere in the city.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by scania

I actually totally agree about the street grid in Downtown(all of Downtown). The reason why I asked specifically about midtown, is because I personally don't see it...yes there is a very small radius that I know of that has a street grid, but no one has given any streets. People pride gets offended when I ask the question, and instead of answering, they waste time complaining and never give a true answer.

everything south of 14, north of n. ave, east of the connector and west of monroe. all of that is undoubtedly on a grid, and like rob was stressing, the streets are all connected and public.

[scania]

Originally Posted by tuckerman

with regard to the atlanta skyscraper scene we need to give up comparing atl with nyc, sf and chicago. Atlanta will never and imo could never look like any of these three. It is dubious in any case to simply compare cities, but if we are to compare, the logical ones would be houston, dallas and phoenix - these are the cities that are about the same size metros, have had most of their heavy development in the past few decades, and are still growing very fast compared to most other large metros in the us. Aside from houston, none of these have highly developed skyscraper downtowns and even houston suffers still from huge areas of street level parking lots. They also have their highly developed non center areas, houston's medical center, etc. Initially they were all highly suburban and residential with vast stretches of single family homes. And, they are all highly dependent on air conditioning. These are the cities that are the appropriate ones for urban planners to look at because they are all the future big american cities.

I simply cannot believe that we will ever see pedestrian street traffic at a high level in any of these newer cities, aside from those times when there is a festival, celebration, ball game or whatever. The idea of a continuous walkable city is a dream, unless you can convince people that walking for miles in blistering heat is a good thing for their health. The alternative is much more likely to be the atlantic station, quasi-mall, streetscape that people drive to and then get out and walk a bit. The idea that one would walk from underground to lenox along peachtree is an idea whose time will not come.

Well said.

[scania]

Originally Posted by cabasse

everything south of 14, north of n. ave, east of the connector and west of monroe. all of that is undoubtedly on a grid, and like rob was stressing, the streets are all connected and public.

Keep in mind, a lot of that is already developed as single detached homes between Peachtree and Monroe.

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by scania

I actually totally agree about the street grid in Downtown(all of Downtown). The reason why I asked specifically about midtown, is because I personally don't see it...yes there is a very small radius that I know of that has a street grid, but no one has given any streets. People pride gets offended when I ask the question, and instead of answering, they waste time complaining and never give a true answer.

Ever heard of google maps? It's pretty obvious.

[scania]

Read the above replies.

[AtlantaMustang]

I read them. I just don't see the necessity in everyone answering your elementary questions.

[briantech]

Sheesh

North Ave
Ponce
3rd st
4th st
5th st
6th st
7th st
8th st
9th st
Peachtree PL
10th st
11th st
12th st
13th st
14th st
15th st
16th st
17th st

Williams
Spring St
West Peachtree
Cypress St
Crescent St
Peachtree St
Juniper St
Piedmont Ave
Myrtle
Penn St
Argonne
Charles Allen
Monroe


Where all those roads intersect, a basic grid is created. This is moronic.

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by briantech

Sheesh

North Ave
Ponce
3rd st
4th st
5th st
6th st
7th st
8th st
9th st
Peachtree PL
10th st
11th st
12th st
13th st
14th st
15th st
16th st
17th st

Williams
Spring St
West Peachtree
Cypress St
Crescent St
Peachtree St
Juniper St
Piedmont Ave
Myrtle
Penn St
Argonne
Charles Allen
Monroe


Where all those roads intersect, a basic grid is created. This is moronic.

Thank you. Maybe he'll finally understand. Doubtful.