PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by glowrock

The problem is that there really was no way to create new access points from 8th Ave. because of that rail line being so extraordinarily crowded. Makes it difficult to justify at-grade crossings when the tracks are so busy, unfortunately.

Why not overpasses, then? Maybe at McClure or Ann or maybe both?

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Why not overpasses, then? Maybe at McClure or Ann or maybe both?

But is there room for overpasses, BrianTH? You have to climb a good 25 feet to allow for the structure itself plus the relatively high clearance required for the trains. Plus the expense involved would be huge at this point.

Don't get me wrong, if it turns out that there IS a way to build an additional overpass or two without spending an absolute fortune I'm all for it. But I just don't see it being feasible right now. Who knows, I can always be wrong, though.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by glowrock

But is there room for overpasses, BrianTH?

I'm no engineer but I would guess yes, at least as long as you were willing to take them over 6th Ave as well. McClure might be the better choice if you did only one, since 6th Avenue is terminating there anyway, and there is already a road next to the Giant Eagle on the Waterfront side across from McClure.

Plus the expense involved would be huge at this point.

So I think it should have been a condition of the development from the beginning that it had a better 8th Avenue connection. But anyway, as a WAG based on other relatively simple overpass projects, I'd say we are talking around $15-20 million give or take. Not a small cost if I am in the ballpark, but then again it could be a much more used overpass than a lot of the other ones the state and feds are constantly building.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'm no engineer but I would guess yes, at least as long as you were willing to take them over 6th Ave as well. McClure might be the better choice if you did only one, since 6th Avenue is terminating there anyway, and there is already a road next to the Giant Eagle on the Waterfront side across from McClure.



So I think it should have been a condition of the development from the beginning that it had a better 8th Avenue connection. But anyway, as a WAG based on other relatively simple overpass project, I'd say we are talking around $15-20 million give or take. Not a small cost if I am in the ballpark, but then again it could be a much more used overpass than a lot of the other ones the state and feds are constantly building.

I agree that it should have been a condition of the original development, no doubt about it. I also agree that McClure would be the best alternative since Ann St. would end up terminating right in the middle of the back end of the Target. I think it's something that needs to be looked into, and yeah, I think your possible dollar amount is probably relatively in the ballpark.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[markson33]

If it had been a condition, then the development probably wouldn't have happened and it would be some sort of light industrial park.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by markson33

If it had been a condition, then the development probably wouldn't have happened and it would be some sort of light industrial park.

We'll never know, but given the overall crappiness of the development I don't think a hypothetical in which Continental was not the developer and didn't do what it did is something to be overly frightened about.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

We'll never know, but given the overall crappiness of the development I don't think a hypothetical in which Continental was not the developer and didn't do what it did is something to be overly frightened about.

Crappiness to us that is, BrianTH. Crappy to those of us who look at things from an urban and architectural perspective. Not crappy to the tens of thousands of people who shop at the Waterfront every day. Sometimes we need to remember that not everyone looks at developments the same way we do here on SSP. Given the lack of big-box retail anywhere near the Waterfront, it's something that was (and is) actually quite needed in the area. We may not like big box retail, but a lot of people do. And the movie theater (probably the nicest in Pittsburgh), the Dave and Buster's, the Rock Bottom, the comedy club, etc., are all benefits for the area. Not to mention the Costco.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by glowrock

We may not like big box retail, but a lot of people do.

I've got no problem with the big box retail per se. I'm talking about things like the lack of a waterfront park and in general no easy waterfront access, the complete reliance on surface parking lots, the fact it is almost all one story, and so on.

Of course I do recognize that these mistakes were not uncommon in the era it was planned, but that is part of why I am not frightened by hypotheticals in which Continental pulls out and maybe this development takes longer. I also recognize that if they had started with an overall denser plan, maybe it would not have been feasible to do the whole site at once, but that is a feature not a bug: if there had been large sections left vacant in the initial round we could have been doing a lot more with them by now.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I've got no problem with the big box retail per se. I'm talking about things like the lack of a waterfront park and in general no easy waterfront access, the complete reliance on surface parking lots, the fact it is almost all one story, and so on.

Of course I do recognize that these mistakes were not uncommon in the era it was planned, but that is part of why I am not frightened by hypotheticals in which Continental pulls out and maybe this development takes longer. I also recognize that if they had started with an overall denser plan, maybe it would not have been feasible to do the whole site at once, but that is a feature not a bug: if there had been large sections left vacant in the initial round we could have been doing a lot more with them by now.

And I personally agree with you on this, Brian. I'm simply saying that the vast majority of people who aren't SSPers or urban/architecture enthusiasts probably don't give a flying f**k about things like this.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[themaguffin]

You know, I'm not a purist, but the Waterfront pisses me off. It wasn't planned well. It's very,very modestly better than the usual grouping of big box stores dropped in a location.

[GeneW]

I end up there fairly often since it's the easiest movie theater to get to but I hate shopping there. All the stores are so spread out that you end up either walking a mile or driving from one end of the parking lot to the other and feeling really stupid about it.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by glowrock

I'm simply saying that the vast majority of people who aren't SSPers or urban/architecture enthusiasts probably don't give a flying f**k about things like this.

Not directly, no. But many of them do care about things like their local tax rates, apartment availability and pricing, traffic congestion, and so on. In that sense getting land-use policy wrong isn't just an aesthetic problem that affects only a few people, but instead it cuts across a wide range of other policy areas that affect virtually everyone, whether they are aware of that relationship or not.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I end up there fairly often since it's the easiest movie theater to get to but I hate shopping there. All the stores are so spread out that you end up either walking a mile or driving from one end of the parking lot to the other and feeling really stupid about it.

Same with us. We have to keep hopping in and out of the car if we want to visit multiple stores, which is pure hell if you have small kids who don't particularly like getting in the car. So we actually don't end up making store visits we want to make because we can't push the kids any more.

[Urbana]

The waterfront was not planned well, but part of me always wants to vouch for the suburban amenities so close to the city. The best of both worlds in a sense.

[Topher51]

I work at the Waterfront and my wife used to live at the apartments here, so I can attest that the live/work/play goal of this development succeeded. It's not Lawrenceville, but it was not intended to be.

As for the connection with 8th Ave, the developers were hoping to have 5 or 6 connections, but the railroads can basically veto anything that could interfere with their right of way. In the end, the developer could not even alter the 3 existing connections, hence why the alignment of the bridge at the east end is so terrible.

While there is a pretty significant spereation between Homestead and the Waterfront, I see dozens of people walking acrorss the Amity St. grade crossing a day and there is a circulator bus that Homestead residents can use to get to the shops more quickly.

As for the lack of a waterfront park, there is a 20 foot elevation difference from the Mon to the site, so its not like there would have been water access even if they built a park. The walking trail that is there is pretty nice though.

I am excited about what is in the plans for Hazelwood, but that doesn't diminish the Waterfront. Having the Waterfront 5 minutes from the Hazelwood development I would think is actually a selling point. Those residents won't have to drive to East Liberty or Swissvale to go to the grocery store, Robinson or Ross Park Mall to go to Lowes, etc.

[Evergrey]

http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/4480756-74/north-shore-million#axzz2b5rYpVx5

Construction to begin on new North Shore offices, restaurants


By Sam Spatter

Published: Monday, August 5, 2013, 11:12 a.m.
Updated 2 hours ago

Construction is expected to begin this month on North Shore I and II, a 120,000-square-foot two-building development on the North Shore between PNC Park and Heinz Field.

The buyer, North Shore Developers 2013 LP, is a partnership of Continental Real Estate Cos. of Columbus, the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Pittsburgh Pirates. The ownership group paid $1.1 million for the site on North Shore Drive, according to a deed filed in Allegheny County.

Alco Parking Corp. president Merrill Stabile, partnering with Al Neyer Inc., had offered to pay $10 million for the site and build a 10-story office tower.
Instead, the developer will build a structure which will have 80,000 square feet of office space and 40,000 square feet of retail space on the first level of the three-story buildings, where Toby Keith's I Love This Bar and Grill, North Park Lounge and Cabana Bar and Burgatory restaurants are scheduled to open.

No office tenant yet has been announced.

Barry Ford, president of development for Continental has said the complex should be completed by September 2014.

North Shore Developers have leased the property to North Shore Place Partners LLC, which represents of the same three principals, for $1.2 million.

Sam Spatter is a staff writer for Trib Total Media. He can be reached at 412-320-7843.

[Minivan Werner]

Obviously nothing significantly tall is going to go up at the North Shore which sucks.. but I'm still holding out hope that the Allegheny Center area can support some height when that inevitably gets leveled and re-developed.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by Minivan Werner

but I'm still holding out hope that the Allegheny Center area can support some height when that inevitably gets leveled and re-developed.

Is this an inevitability?

[markson33]

I wouldn't hold your breath on Allegheny Center getting redeveloped. Maybe in 20+ years. Its actually pretty full with office tenants.

[themaguffin]

Can we call Allegheny Center a stadium so that it automatically becomes obsolete and flattened?