Canadian Retail Thread

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by canarob

While the GTA has a few dead malls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeydale_Mall), I don't think it has as many compared to smaller metros because we have far fewer malls per capita. Aside from Vaughan Mills and an outlet mall that just opened in Halton, nothing has been built since the 80s while population has surged. Power centres have never really filled the gap, and pretty much every mall in the GTA is either renovating or expanding since most of these locations are considered prime.

Also, much of the space that would have been using for "traditional retail" is now "ethnic retail." Market Village in Markham used to be a "traditional mall," but it's been a "Chinese Mall" for many years. It's currently being redeveloped in an attempt to attract a mix of both types of retail, but presently these types of retail do not typically coexist. So, you end up with cities like Markham with 350,000 people with only one major traditional mall (Markville). I'm not sure this is something you would see elsewhere in Canada. From my experience, even cities with 100,000 people tend to have two traditional malls, even if one is a "dirt mall."

With all the high-end retail coming in, there aren't really any in Toronto or its suburbs east of the 404/DVP (i.e. Scarborough, Markham, Durham Region) and that area has at least 1.5 million people. Also I haven't heard anything of the east-end malls expanding greatly either. Are the demographics different in the eastern part of the GTA?

[TownGuy]

The Oshawa Centre is expanding.

http://www.ivanhoecambridge.com/en-C...ing/index.aspx

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

The Oshawa Centre is expanding.

http://www.ivanhoecambridge.com/en-C...ing/index.aspx

It's probably the best location of all of the suburban malls in the GTA, located not too far from downtown Oshawa. I think Durham needs to remove the Highway 2 couplet and make King Street a mainstreet (while downgrading Bond to a collector) though, looking at the street network there...

[canarob]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

With all the high-end retail coming in, there aren't really any in Toronto or its suburbs east of the 404/DVP (i.e. Scarborough, Markham, Durham Region) and that area has at least 1.5 million people. Also I haven't heard anything of the east-end malls expanding greatly either. Are the demographics different in the eastern part of the GTA?

Well, in addition to the Oshawa Centre expansion that's mentioned above, Scarborough Town Centre and Markville have both undergone substantial renovations that have brought in higher-end retail (Markville has Apple, J Crew, Coach, etc. now). In terms of Markville, the plan is essentially to make it a higher-end mall before further expansion since some of what was there before the renovations was lower-end (Bulk Barn, etc.). It was never a dead mall, but it's becoming much higher-end these days. I would expect that expansion is definitely in the works in the next five years once all the renovated space has been filled up. Also, the Downtown Markham project will be sort of a "Shops of Don Mills" outdoor-mall-thing with 2 million square feet of retail, so that might count as something between a traditional mall and a power centre when it's finished.

In terms of demographics, looking at the GTA east of the 404 is a bit misleading though. North of Steeles (York Region) is a much different market than Scarborough and Durham Region in terms of housing prices, etc. Scarborough and Durham are generally the cheapest regions of the GTA, with some exceptions. In York, Vaughan Mills just announced a big expansion.

[miketoronto]

Yes there are some downtown malls which have become vacant or are being turned into other uses. And some local malls have fallen on harder times. But overall what we consider dead malls are not fully vacant most of the time.
We just do not have the decay like the USA where entire regional malls and even surrounding strip plazas are left vacant.

The photos below show a true dead mall, and I challenge you to find a similar large regional mall and area left to rot like this in Canada?

Randall Park Mall including abandoned hotel, Cleveland. This would be like Chinook or Yorkdale going vacant.










Photos by me

[eternallyme]

Those pictures are just scary...

Downtown malls going down? I only see that in Winnipeg right now...partly because they are only 4 km from an existing established mall...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I think there is some kind of law that says that if a mall has those type of white arches it just has to die.

[isaidso]

The bizarre thing about places like Cleveland is that they keep building new subdivisions and malls. People leave the old areas when they sense it's in decline then simply replicate it further out. The result is that these cities are sprawling out continuously leaving holes of decaying nothingness all over.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Really? What is so bad about that? You have a deep anti-suburban mindset...

Funny, I thought this was a forum about celebrating cities? Why would I support the continued expansion of malls in places where they are not warranted and just eat away at the downtown core?

I am not anti-suburban, although I am if they are not properly built and planned suburbs.

The retail picture in many Canadian downtowns is just not as healthy as it could be, and we should not be moving more action to the edge when our cities are not beating at full steam.

Check out these photos I just took in Stuttgart, Germany of their city centre on a Saturday. Stuttgart is not much larger than Calgary. I would like to see Calgary have that much action downtown on a weekend. But it is having trouble doing that because all the things that make a city great, including unique retail are being built in places like Chinook Mall.
In Stuttgart in contrast, the trains were full going into the city because everyone goes into the city centre on the weekend. Not only to shop, but to also relax in the public squares, etc.
It was so great, and shows that we have a lot of work to do here in Canada.







Contrary to the thinking in Canada and the USA that department stores are too big and need to downsize(because they have too many branches in each city), Stuttgart's most famous department store just expanded their downtown location into one of the largest stores in Europe.

[eemy]

Isn't Stuttgart more on the scale of Toronto or Montreal?

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Isn't Stuttgart more on the scale of Toronto or Montreal?

I live in Bath, UK (population 80,000) and I bet Bath would have more people in the city centre than Calgary on a Saturday. There are some malls in the UK but for the most part, everything is in the city centre. I hate suburbia now with a passion, no soul and boring.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

I live in Bath, UK (population 80,000) and I bet Bath would have more people in the city centre than Calgary on a Saturday. There are some malls in the UK but for the most part, everything is in the city centre. I hate suburbia now with a passion, no soul and boring.

But the thing is that malls are not totally bad. I noticed in some European cities I was, that the mall for the city was built as an urban mall into the city centre. Sort of like the Toronto Eaton Centre.
So people get the mall and street fix in one area.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

But the thing is that malls are not totally bad. I noticed in some European cities I was, that the mall for the city was built as an urban mall into the city centre. Sort of like the Toronto Eaton Centre.
So people get the mall and street fix in one area.

In many cities, the downtown is not the most attractive area or even close to that. Take Winnipeg, for example, the downtown area is one of the least affluent and least attractive parts of the entire city. Even mid-level retail would not likely set up there.

Also comparing Calgary (or Edmonton or Ottawa) to Toronto - the GTA is 5x the size, so if a store were to locate in Calgary once, it would likely locate in Toronto in 5 locations and maintain the same proportion of sales. Of course they wouldn't have 5 downtown and 0 suburban locations - 1 and 4 make the most sense in that sense. Some of the suburbs are trying to build up into downtowns anyway (take North York Centre for a comparable situation)...

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In some cities, the downtown is not the most attractive area or even close to that. Take Winnipeg, for example, the downtown area is one of the least affluent and least attractive parts of the entire city. Even mid-level retail would not likely set up there.

Also comparing Calgary (or Edmonton or Ottawa) to Toronto - the GTA is 5x the size, so if a store were to locate in Calgary once, it would likely locate in Toronto in 5 locations and maintain the same proportion of sales.

Winnipeg made the downtown unattractive to retail by allowing too many malls to be a built in a city that did not need those malls.
Why would a city of 600,000 need a super regional mall (Polo Park) like 4 km from its downtown retail district?

By allowing uncontrolled retail growth (like most North American cities have), the cities have killed off their central areas.

The truth is cities like Winnipeg, Hamilton, and other mid sized cities just do not need the amount of malls they have.
They probably don't even need any, and should have focused on building a vibrant city core.

And why does a store need say 5 locations in a big city? I noticed while in Europe last month that many stores only had one location even in big cities like London. And that location was in the central retail area.
Additional stores do not really increase sales. It just reduces sales at one location.

Retail in North America just overdoes it way too much. And what we are left with are small stores, with little selection.

The stores I was just at in Europe were a pleasure to go into it, with wide selections. But of course they can offer that when they are only worrying about one big store in most cases, per city.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

In many cities, the downtown is not the most attractive area or even close to that. Take Winnipeg, for example, the downtown area is one of the least affluent and least attractive parts of the entire city. Even mid-level retail would not likely set up there.

That's because it's been hollowed out by suburban malls. If those same stores had invested in downtown Winnipeg high streets, things would be very different. Most Canadian downtowns have been decimated and it's time to bring them back to life.

[christopherj]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Isn't Stuttgart more on the scale of Toronto or Montreal?

According to Wikipedia... "The sixth-largest city in Germany, Stuttgart has a population of 613,392 (December 2011) while the metropolitan area has a population of 5.3 million (2008)."

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

I live in Bath, UK (population 80,000) and I bet Bath would have more people in the city centre than Calgary on a Saturday. There are some malls in the UK but for the most part, everything is in the city centre. I hate suburbia now with a passion, no soul and boring.

Firstly, Bath is part of the Bristol metro area (which has a population of just over 1 million people.)

Secondly, Bath is a major tourist destination (indeed, the entire city is designated as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.)

Thirdly, Bath was founded in the first century. Calgary was founded in 1884.

My point, I suppose, is that it is very difficult to compare a city like Bath to a city like Calgary. There is simply no way for a city like Calgary to resemble a city like Bath. That's not to say that Calgary cannot improve (Lord knows that it can) or that it cannot learn anything from Bath, but it seems a bit silly to compare the two and wring our hands and moan that Bath has more pedestrians.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

My point, I suppose, is that it is very difficult to compare a city like Bath to a city like Calgary. There is simply no way for a city like Calgary to resemble a city like Bath. That's not to say that Calgary cannot improve (Lord knows that it can) or that it cannot learn anything from Bath, but it seems a bit silly to compare the two and wring our hands and moan that Bath has more pedestrians.

I don't think it is silly at all. Cities the size of Bath in Canada also for the most part have dismal downtown vibrancy. And regardless of age, a city the size of Calgary just for example, should not have less vibrancy downtown then a small city like Bath. Even taking into account tourism, age, etc.
Downtown Calgary and the downtowns of many Canadian cities used to be busier 50 years ago than they are now, even though their populations are larger now.
And it comes down to a large extent on where retail, restaurants, etc have been locating.

Canada is not as bad as the USA, although we have to watch that we don't end up like the USA. But Canada is also not as good as Australian cities. Australian cities of all sizes have much more healthy downtowns which contain more retail offerings then similar sized cities in Canada.
Downtown Adelaide, Perth, or Brisbane can easily blow away downtown Calgary, Edmonton, or Winnipeg.
And it should not be that way. Our cities should be vibrant as well.
But Australian cities were for the most part even in the smaller centres, able to keep the choice retail in the downtown core.
Tiffany's opened in downtown Brisbane. They are not opening in Brisbane's version of Chinook Mall (where Tiffany's is opening in Calgary).

[eternallyme]

The closest thing to a downtown-dominated retail scene is probably in Ottawa...

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Reesonov

Firstly, Bath is part of the Bristol metro area (which has a population of just over 1 million people.)

Secondly, Bath is a major tourist destination (indeed, the entire city is designated as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.)

Thirdly, Bath was founded in the first century. Calgary was founded in 1884.

My point, I suppose, is that it is very difficult to compare a city like Bath to a city like Calgary. There is simply no way for a city like Calgary to resemble a city like Bath. That's not to say that Calgary cannot improve (Lord knows that it can) or that it cannot learn anything from Bath, but it seems a bit silly to compare the two and wring our hands and moan that Bath has more pedestrians.

That's a bit of a cop out. North American city cores were packed like sardines a century ago. Age isn't the culprit, city planning is. We abandoned our downtowns and built suburban malls that sucked all city life inside them. If we had valued high street shopping and invested in our downtowns they'd be every bit as busy as Bath or Stuttgart.