General Retail News

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The company never really explained why they left, but it is known that they had some serious run-ins with the OLF in the years leading up to their withdrawal from Quebec.

Could be but I can't find any record of this. I went a few times to the Kelsey's in Gatineau and everything was in French as it is with most any restaurant here. I assume it was the same with the other Kelsey's in Quebec. Boston Pizza appears to do just fine in Quebec. So does Casey's.

Whereas Perkins flopped in Quebec just like Kelsey's.

Not sure it has anything to do with language in either case. Maybe market intel and adaptation.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by vanatox

And let me add that for such a "rich" city, Ottawa-Gatineau doesn't look that much prosperous. The city is mostly unimpressive (in every way), utilitarian and my god, the way people dress...

That's weird...I find Ottawa looks very well put together and prosperous, with the odd exception here and there. A beautiful city of trees and rivers, impeccably maintained and incredibly beautiful. There are the odd warts, most of which are in some stage of being addressed. I'm from Calgary, I have lived in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal and none seem as prosperous (on the whole), as natural, and as impressive as Ottawa to me. I think Ottawa is the most underrated city in the world. I have been to 27 countries and hundreds of cities and I have chosen Ottawa as my home because of all it offers. It's the complete package. Safety, Serenity, Scenery, the perfect four seasons, a burgeoning foody scene, an interesting and rapidly progressing transition into a cosmopolitan world city...to name a few. As far as the fashion sense goes..I don't find Ottawa all that well dressed but fashion sense will come as the city grows into itself and finds it's identity on the world stage.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Harley613

That's weird...I find Ottawa looks very well put together and prosperous, with the odd exception here and there. A beautiful city of trees and rivers, impeccably maintained and incredibly beautiful. There are the odd warts, most of which are in some stage of being addressed. I'm from Calgary, I have lived in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal and none seem as prosperous (on the whole)...

My comment was more a response to the "overwhelming air of poverty" that Montreal is supposed to have...

I agree that the natural scenery in Ottawa is very nice and beautiful. The reasons why I don't find Ottawa that prosperous is the way people dress, the lack of shopping options and quality (this is improving), downtown outside of the Parliament Hill area and ByWard Market/Sussex is mostly unimpressive, the major commercial streets are a bit rundown and unimpressive (Bank, Rideau), lots of shabby and rundown buildings in the neighboorhoods surrounding downtown, Vieux-Hull is a disaster, the suburbs are not nicer of worse than elsewhere....

But the city as a whole is not ugly, very safe and IS prosperous even if I don't find it looks that way. A good place to live. It is just more middle class than the bigger cities of the country. Less very rich people, but also less very poor.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Harley613

That's weird...I find Ottawa looks very well put together and prosperous, with the odd exception here and there. A beautiful city of trees and rivers, impeccably maintained and incredibly beautiful. There are the odd warts, most of which are in some stage of being addressed. I'm from Calgary, I have lived in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal and none seem as prosperous (on the whole), as natural, and as impressive as Ottawa to me. I think Ottawa is the most underrated city in the world. I have been to 27 countries and hundreds of cities and I have chosen Ottawa as my home because of all it offers. It's the complete package. Safety, Serenity, Scenery, the perfect four seasons, a burgeoning foody scene, an interesting and rapidly progressing transition into a cosmopolitan world city...to name a few. As far as the fashion sense goes..I don't find Ottawa all that well dressed but fashion sense will come as the city grows into itself and finds it's identity on the world stage.

Ottawa is indeed a very nice city but outside of a few pockets doted upon by the NCC/feds it is decidedly lacking in urban grandeur. Streetscaping, furniture, urban design... anything this tends to be of the city's domain is very uninspiring and most of the main streets are *OK-looking, occupied non-blighted North American" in look and feel at best.

Montreal, though obviously much more faded and even shabby in bits, has oodles more urban grandeur along its streets than Ottawa does. And people in Ottawa should also look at how Quebec City has greatly stepped up its game on this front over the past 5-10 years.

The Ottawa-Gatineau area does offer an amazing quality of life it is true (which is also why I choose to raise my family here) but outside of a few areas it is not a grand-looking city or capital by any stretch. Most of it looks like a nice, non-depressed middling North American city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

My comment was more a response to the "overwhelming air of poverty" that Montreal is supposed to have...

I agree that the natural scenery in Ottawa is very nice and beautiful. The reasons why I don't find Ottawa that prosperous is the way people dress, the lack of shopping options and quality (this is improving), downtown outside of the Parliament Hill area and ByWard Market/Sussex is mostly unimpressive, the major commercial streets are a bit rundown and unimpressive (Bank, Rideau), lots of shabby and rundown buildings in the neighboorhoods surrounding downtown, Vieux-Hull is a disaster, the suburbs are not nicer of worse than elsewhere....

But the city as a whole is not ugly, very safe and IS prosperous even if I don't find it looks that way. A good place to live. It is just more middle class than the bigger cities of the country. Less very rich people, but also less very poor.

And this last point is where Saks Ottawa vs. Saks Montréal comes into play.

There may be a much bigger proletarian segment of the population in Montreal than in Ottawa but just walking around it is obvious that there are still WAY more people in Montreal who spend lots of money on nice clothes than there are in Ottawa. In both percentage terms and sheer numbers.

Because of the government and to a lesser degree hi-tech, Ottawa has a huge amount of people in the upper middle class 80,000-120,000 salary range.

But also because of its economic structure it also has fewer of the super-rich people that tend to be entrepreneurs, go-getters or heads of large private companies. These are the people who shop at high-end stores. The Guy Laliberté, Paul Desmarais and Lino Saputos of the world - these people are way more numerous in cities like Montreal, and also Toronto, Vancouver and even Calgary.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Montreal, though obviously much more faded and even shabby in bits, has oodles more urban grandeur along its streets than Ottawa does.

Meh. Outside of the old port and a few spots in some of the trendy, wealthy neighborhoods, Montreal is a disaster.

Overall it is one of the dirtiest cities I've been to, the state of its infrastructure is a joke, and the amount of decrepit buildings and land plots can make one feel like he's in a post-war zone.

Step outside of the CBD, old port, Westmount/TMR/Outremont, and the situation is downright ugly.

Ottawa may not be grand like Washington DC, but at least it is well kept, overall. And most importantly, Ottawa has a superior quality of life to Montreal in just about every way I can think of.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Meh. Outside of the old port and a few spots in some of the trendy, wealthy neighborhoods, Montreal is a disaster.

Overall it is one of the dirtiest cities I've been to, the state of its infrastructure is a joke, and the amount of decrepit buildings and land plots can make one feel like he's in a post-war zone.

Step outside of the CBD, old port, Westmount/TMR/Outremont, and the situation is downright ugly.

Ottawa may not be grand like Washington DC, but at least it is well kept, overall. And most importantly, Ottawa has a superior quality of life to Montreal in just about every way I can think of.

I don't recall ever saying that Montreal was better maintained than Ottawa. That wasn't my point at all. I even noted that it could be shabby and faded.

Now, if Montreal is one of the dirtiest cities you've ever been in, then I'd say you haven't been to that many cities, and should perhaps start living your avatar and fly out of YOW (or YYW, or - heavens! - even YUL) a bit more often.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't recall ever saying that Montreal was better maintained than Ottawa. That wasn't my point at all. I even noted that it could be shabby and faded.

Right, and my contention was that it IS shabby and faded, overall, and not just "in bits" as you said.

Now, if Montreal is one of the dirtiest cities you've ever been in, then I'd say you haven't been to that many cities, and should perhaps start living your avatar and fly out of YOW (or YYW, or - heavens! - even YUL) a bit more often.

I'll put my travel resume up against yours or anyone's any day, any time. We can both plot our travel history on a map such as gcmap.com. Just say when.

You see, the nature of my business enables/requires me to travel extensively, and my resulting FF status on 2 alliances (Star and SkyTeam) affords me the privilege to do a lot of leisure travel for "free" as well.

I do indeed fly out of YUL, almost weekly, actually, because I presently live in Montreal. That puts me in a much better position to comment on the situation here than you.

Now run along and spare me any more of your thoughts on this topic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Right, and my contention was that it IS shabby and faded, overall, and not just "in bits" as you said.

I'll put my travel resume up against yours or anyone's any day, any time. We can both plot our travel history on a map such as gcmap.com. Just say when.

You see, the nature of my business enables/requires me to travel extensively, and my resulting FF status on 2 alliances (Star and SkyTeam) affords me the privilege to do a lot of leisure travel for "free" as well.

I do indeed fly out of YUL, almost weekly, actually, because I presently live in Montreal. That puts me in a much better position to comment on the situation here than you.

Now run along and spare me any more of your thoughts on this topic.

Allow me to scratch my head that someone who claims to be such a seasoned global traveller would find Montreal to be one of the dirtiest cities he or she has seen.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Allow me to scratch my head that someone who claims to be such a seasoned global traveller would find Montreal to be one of the dirtiest cities he or she has seen.

Its simply not plausible.

[YOWflier]

Scratch away ... perhaps you haven't extensively travelled the greater region of Montreal during any recent time. Outside of the neighbourhoods I quoted, most of the city is pretty ugly. The beauty and grandeur are limited to those areas and they are relics of a prosperous past, when this city was Canada's Alpha.

The present situation is a very far cry from those times.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Scratch away ... perhaps you haven't extensively travelled the greater region of Montreal during any recent time. Outside of the neighbourhoods I quoted, most of the city is pretty ugly. The beauty and grandeur are limited to those areas and they are relics of a prosperous past, when this city was Canada's Alpha.

The present situation is a very far cry from those times.

I've known Montreal since the late 1970s and it probably looks better today than it has at any time since then. At least it's much better than it was in the 80s and 90s when I spent a lot of time there.

Montreal has always been a bit rough around the edges in parts being an old industrial northeastern North American city.

Ottawa just doesn't have that history that shows up now and then in Montreal.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've known Montreal since the late 1970s and it probably looks better today than it has at any time since then. At least it's much better than it was in the 80s and 90s when I spent a lot of time there.

I'd agree. I lived in Montreal in the 90s, and I'm amazed at how much better the city looks now than it did then. It's progress over that time has been at least as rapid as that of other cities in Canada (with the possible exception of Vancouver).

I also think that the great neighbourhoods go beyond CBC/Vieux Montreal/TMR/Westmount/Outremont. In terms of walkable, mixed use urban neighbourhoods, Montreal is really hard to beat in North America. The entire Plateau, NDG and CDN are all really strong, with places like Verdun rapidly trending that way.

[eternallyme]

Could Ottawa try to grab retail from the US areas close by as well, especially if the dollar drops?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ottawa is indeed a very nice city but outside of a few pockets doted upon by the NCC/feds it is decidedly lacking in urban grandeur.

The NCC's grass-fetishism isn't exactly what I'd call "urban grandeur".

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ottawa just doesn't have that history that shows up now and then in Montreal.

Ottawa's share of that history has been erased, physically and metaphorically.

[J.OT13]

We also have to bring tourism into play. Has anyone heard of someone visiting Ottawa to shop. I sure haven't. La rue Saint-Catherine in Montréal is considered one of the great shopping districts of the world just like Yong Street in Toronto (comparing them to 5th Avenue in NYC might be stretching it).

Ottawa on the other hand has the dead Sussex Drive thanks to the visionless Federal Government, the same can be said of the north side of Sparks. Bank is no shopping meca either. Old Ottawa had suffered from a steep decline after the war. Of course in the past 10 years, Ottawa has come back up to try and compete and in 5 years we will be leaps and bounds further ahead (of where we are today).

So the way I see it, even though Montreal has suffered a fall from grace, mostly due to separatism and the language police, it is still and will always be more attractive to big retailers.

I think HBC will likely open a Saks in MTL For my money, I think it will only take a bit of space in the Morgan Building as opposed to a stand alone. As for Ottawa, they might condense Hudson's Bay in the two east buildings of the Freiman Mall and open a stand alone Saks in the narrow, taller one next to Chapters or they might open a small Saks in whatever Zellers space left. I can't think of any other potential location.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We also have to bring tourism into play. Has anyone heard of someone visiting Ottawa to shop. I sure haven't. La rue Saint-Catherine in Montréal is considered one of the great shopping districts of the world just like Yong Street in Toronto (comparing them to 5th Avenue in NYC might be stretching it).

.

Good point. Who comes to Ottawa to shop from outside the national capital region?

The main drawing regions would be Maniwaki, Pembroke, Smiths Falls, Brockville. Cornwall and Hawkesbury would probably be half and half between Ottawa and Montreal. People in Kingston generally go to the GTA to shop, not Ottawa.

So Ottawa's wider trading area is actually quite limited.

Now let's look at Montreal.

People from Quebec City (almost 800,000 people) go to Montreal to shop. As do people from the Trois-Rivières and Sherbrooke areas, both of which are between 150-200,000 people. So do people from Drummondville, St-Hyacinthe and Granby, all of which are bigger than Cornwall, by far the biggest city that is arguably in Ottawa's wider trading area.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We also have to bring tourism into play. Has anyone heard of someone visiting Ottawa to shop. I sure haven't. La rue Saint-Catherine in Montréal is considered one of the great shopping districts of the world just like Yong Street in Toronto (comparing them to 5th Avenue in NYC might be stretching it).

No one has ever, in the history of the world, come from another city to Ottawa to shop.

I am not sure Yonge St. belongs in your list of the world's great shopping streets. The blocks of Bloor in Yorkville maybe. Despite the recently built megaplexes brimming with fancy Jack Astor's and the like, Yonge is still a pretty low-brow experience.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

People from Quebec City (almost 800,000 people) go to Montreal to shop. As do people from the Trois-Rivières and Sherbrooke areas, both of which are between 150-200,000 people. So do people from Drummondville, St-Hyacinthe and Granby, all of which are bigger than Cornwall, by far the biggest city that is arguably in Ottawa's wider trading area.

People from Toronto go to Montreal to shop.