Port Mann/Highway 1 Improvements | Completed

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by DKaz

The westbound "collector lanes" is actually an extended Lougheed exit. It'll be signed on the Surrey side as Exit 44. You shouldn't take these lanes with the intent of continue westbound on Hwy 1 west of the Cape Horn interchange.

No, definitely not, but if you do by accident, you can just get back on westbound at the Coleman ramp to WB hwy 1.

[Klazu]

The new Port Mann Bridge as seen from Downtown:

[East Van]

Impressive. And also the Golden Ears Bridge which is roughly 35kms away. Is that from the Wall Center?

[Klazu]

What do you know! I have never even noticed GEB in this view, but you are 100% correct.

Yep, this is aken from the 45th floor of One Wall Centre.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Correct.
The HOV will enter and exit at 156th, not 152nd (and not be stuck in any future congestion at 152nd).



The one thing I don't like about the westbound collector lanes merging back into the TCH is that the configuration of lanes favours traffic from Lougheed Hwy accessing TCH.
The collector lanes merge into the right hand side of westbound Loughed Hwy, so collector lane traffic headed to TCH must fully merge across Lougheed Hwy
(at that point only one lane over, but if it's a true collector lane it should merge with TCH without changing lanes).

The configuration assumes that collector lane traffic is headed to Lougheed Hwy and that most Lougheed Hwy traffic is headed to TCH.
That could be the reality of the volume flows, but it's not a s much of a true express / collector configuration as the eastbound configuration.


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If you think about it anyone going WB on the collector lanes at the point where they can merge with the LH. Would of either have come from the TCH EB before 152nd or from 152nd or from the MHB. In all cases if anyone is coming from those three points and wants to be on the TCH going WB after the collector lanes. They should of merged onto the express lanes and not gone onto the Collector lanes. In fact if you see anyone trying to cross over at the point where the WB collector meets the WB LH. You can probably guess a million dollars that they screwed up and are trying to correct their mistake.

It shall be interesting to see how many people do screw up.

As for HOT lanes over HOV lanes. The one problem I see with HOT lanes is they give a preferential treatment for those who have money, ie the rich, over those who don't have money. But then again that is how things work in the US and so it doesn't surprise me the the HOT lanes are popular down there. The poor are just too stupid to realize it.

[officedweller]

My point was that if it's a true collector system, the collectors should merge back into the express lanes. These do not.
So it's more difficult for drivers to use the collectors as an alternative to the express lanes (i.e. if the express lanes are jammed because of an accident)

[Canadian Mind]

They do have space so that if it becomes a problem in the future, a proper collector lane could be set up.

[giallo]

Loving all these aerials, Klazu. Thanks for posting them.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by officedweller

My point was that if it's a true collector system, the collectors should merge back into the express lanes. These do not.
So it's more difficult for drivers to use the collectors as an alternative to the express lanes (i.e. if the express lanes are jammed because of an accident)

Problem is most people who get onto the collector lane should not in theory be merging back with the express lane traffic. Sure there might those occurrences when people use the collector lanes to get around heavy traffic or an accident on the express lanes.

So if we did it how you mentioned than the majority of the traffic that got on to the collector lane at 152nd would have to merge at the Lougheed to continue on the Lougheed. Since most of the traffic that will be getting onto the collector lane at 152nd is probably destined for the lougheed. It is better to have it how the built it. This way there are less merges and less chances for some sort of accident.

I understand what you are saying though on being a true collector lane. But I do feel this is better from a safety stand point over all. In the end though nothing would be perfect.

[s211]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Problem is most people who get onto the collector lane should not in theory be merging back with the express lane traffic. Sure there might those occurrences when people use the collector lanes to get around heavy traffic or an accident on the express lanes.

On the 401 in Toronto, without fail the collector lanes are faster to travel than using the express lanes, at least in my limited experience.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by s211

On the 401 in Toronto, without fail the collector lanes are faster to travel than using the express lanes, at least in my limited experience.

The 401 is unique in the whole world. No jurisdiction would build an express-collector system with the intention of the express lanes being slower and avoided.

[officedweller]

Ultimately, it depends on whether the ramps are called a collector system or not. I don't think they will be - so if it's called an exit to Lougheed Hwy - that's its primary purpose, with the ability to get back to TCH.

Originally Posted by s211

On the 401 in Toronto, without fail the collector lanes are faster to travel than using the express lanes, at least in my limited experience.

That's because of volume. Cars flood into the express lanes, and when volume peaks, there's nowhere for them to go. On the collectors, you have traffic coming in and out. Sometimes, on a regular freeway (like I-5) the "slow" lanes move faster than the "fast" lanes.

[GMasterAres]

Don't understand this notion that the HOV lanes aren't used or HOV use is dropping. I have never driven HWY 1 at any point of the day where the HOV lanes aren't as used as the other general traffic lanes.

As has been pointed out, "carpoolers" statistics is completely useless. Carpools are difficult to put together and people change jobs often enough that those statistics will swing around constantly. Case and point, you take a van of carpoolers with 5 people travelling together, then 2 people leave so now you have 3 people carpooling.

So from an HOV perspective, nothing has changed, but from a "Carpoolers" statistics perspective, you have 40% less carpoolers now so the poster 2 pages ago would then claim "SEE HOV USE DOWN 40%!" when that's completely false and misleading.

Learn to read statistics please before posting them like you're an authority.

[TransitJack]

I was looking at the plan pdf's for around the Cape Horn West of the PMB area of HWY1 and it looks like EB TCH traffic that need to exit at 152nd St will need to access the collector lanes immediately East of the EB Lougheed Hwy to EB TCH on ramp. This will put cars at conflict with those motorists who are travelling from EB Lougheed to EB TCH who plan to travel beyond 152, no?

It looks as if there will be cars crossing over each other to either access the collector lane for 152 exit, and trying to access the throughput lanes EB.

Am I looking at it wrong? If someone is travelling from EB Lougheed Hwy to EB TCH via the overpass/on ramp, will they think they have to quickly merge over left, in front of EB TCH traffic that is trying to merge right into the collector lanes?

I notice also that at 152nd exit, the collector lanes exit to 152, however, there is also a lane that goes under the overpass EB and merges with the main traffic to EB TCH. Is this to accommodate people who ended up in the collector lanes by mistake? and is this where people from EB Lougheed to EB TCH will be encouraged to rejoin the highway?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I was looking at the plan pdf's for around the Cape Horn West of the PMB area of HWY1 and it looks like EB TCH traffic that need to exit at 152nd St will need to access the collector lanes immediately East of the EB Lougheed Hwy to EB TCH on ramp.

No, that traffic will have already exited to the collector lanes west of there, near the Coleman overpass... I think.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I was looking at the plan pdf's for around the Cape Horn West of the PMB area of HWY1 and it looks like EB TCH traffic that need to exit at 152nd St will need to access the collector lanes immediately East of the EB Lougheed Hwy to EB TCH on ramp. This will put cars at conflict with those motorists who are travelling from EB Lougheed to EB TCH who plan to travel beyond 152, no?

It looks as if there will be cars crossing over each other to either access the collector lane for 152 exit, and trying to access the throughput lanes EB.

Am I looking at it wrong? If someone is travelling from EB Lougheed Hwy to EB TCH via the overpass/on ramp, will they think they have to quickly merge over left, in front of EB TCH traffic that is trying to merge right into the collector lanes?

I notice also that at 152nd exit, the collector lanes exit to 152, however, there is also a lane that goes under the overpass EB and merges with the main traffic to EB TCH. Is this to accommodate people who ended up in the collector lanes by mistake? and is this where people from EB Lougheed to EB TCH will be encouraged to rejoin the highway?

There will be some weaving (cars merging left to the express lanes while others are exiting right to the collector lanes), but weaving isn't a "conflict".

An eastbound Lougheed driver has the choice of collector lanes or express lanes (some may be destined for 152nd). Likewise, with the split ramp, westbound Lougheed drivers will also have the option to choose between collector lanes and express lanes.)

As you've noted, a driver ending up in the collector lanes rejoins the express lanes east of 152nd.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I was looking at the plan pdf's for around the Cape Horn West of the PMB area of HWY1 and it looks like EB TCH traffic that need to exit at 152nd St will need to access the collector lanes immediately East of the EB Lougheed Hwy to EB TCH on ramp. This will put cars at conflict with those motorists who are travelling from EB Lougheed to EB TCH who plan to travel beyond 152, no?

You are correct that those going EB on TCH will have to merge onto the same lanes as those who are coming from EB Lougheed Hwy.

I notice also that at 152nd exit, the collector lanes exit to 152, however, there is also a lane that goes under the overpass EB and merges with the main traffic to EB TCH. Is this to accommodate people who ended up in the collector lanes by mistake? and is this where people from EB Lougheed to EB TCH will be encouraged to rejoin the highway?

Yes that lane will be used for those who ended up on the collector lanes going EB and did not want to get off at 152nd street.

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Don't understand this notion that the HOV lanes aren't used or HOV use is dropping. I have never driven HWY 1 at any point of the day where the HOV lanes aren't as used as the other general traffic lanes.

As has been pointed out, "carpoolers" statistics is completely useless. Carpools are difficult to put together and people change jobs often enough that those statistics will swing around constantly. Case and point, you take a van of carpoolers with 5 people travelling together, then 2 people leave so now you have 3 people carpooling.

So from an HOV perspective, nothing has changed, but from a "Carpoolers" statistics perspective, you have 40% less carpoolers now so the poster 2 pages ago would then claim "SEE HOV USE DOWN 40%!" when that's completely false and misleading.

Learn to read statistics please before posting them like you're an authority.

I'm sorry but I feel the part in bold, is kind of a ridiculous assertion. Now I don't drive highway 1 every day but, every time I do there is with out a doubt far less traffic in the hov lanes then the general purpose lanes. As an experiment try looking at the webcams, and try to find a picture at anytime from anywhere when there is equal or more cars in the hov lane then in the general purpose lanes (either of them). I think you will find that you will have a very hard time finding this scenario (I spent 5 mins randomly clicking different cameras at different times and locations and could not find one example).

I'm taking no stance on if hov lanes are good are not (I do have an opinion but it has nothing to do with this comment). I just felt that your statement is not really based in reality imho.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

I'm sorry but I feel the part in bold, is kind of a ridiculous assertion. Now I don't drive highway 1 every day but, every time I do there is with out a doubt far less traffic in the hov lanes then the general purpose lanes. As an experiment try looking at the webcams, and try to find a picture at anytime from anywhere when there is equal or more cars in the hov lane then in the general purpose lanes (either of them). I think you will find that you will have a very hard time finding this scenario (I spent 5 mins randomly clicking different cameras at different times and locations and could not find one example).

I'm taking no stance on if hov lanes are good are not (I do have an opinion but it has nothing to do with this comment). I just felt that your statement is not really based in reality imho.

I'm exaggerating some but don't look at a web cam or look at the perception of more or less cars at face value. Firstly, speed can be deceiving. I've been in the HOV lane where we're zipping along at 80-100kph without issue, spread a fair 3-4 car lengths apart, and zipping by bumper to bumper traffic.

Now if you took a snapshot, you'd count 20 cars in the HOV lane spread out vs maybe 60+ lined up bumper to bumper moving half the speed or not at all. That doesn't mean there are "less cars" in the HOV lane capacity wise. If you take a single fixed point, I would guarantee you'd have far more cars cross a single point in the HOV lane within 1 minute than in the bumper to bumper general traffic lanes sitting idle or moving half the speed.

Simple physics. So unless you are sitting in general traffic lanes or you're driving in the HOV lane and you absolutely see nobody for KM in front or behind you or there are 50 car lengths between you and the next car, I still contend they are well used and during the day as used as the general traffic lanes.

Obviously this is purely through experience so if ANYONE can back up claims for or against with actual statistics, I'm willing to change my viewpoint. Carpool statistics don't count because as I mentioned, they are bunk and unfortunately don't show the truth.

You need traffic counter data and I'm unsure anyone has done that on HWY1 and published it for the last decade. I'm sure they would have did it for the Gateway project but I can't seem to find them anywhere.

Traffic counting is the only true measure.

[GMasterAres]

Just as an exercise, I looked at the cams just now during the tail end of rush hour where traffic in all lanes starts to spread and while the HOV lane is still in effect. Took a look at cameras along the stretch from Grandview all the way to PMB, and counting cars generally the HOV lane was very near in the snapshots the general traffic. For example around Kensington, EB I count 12 cars in the HOV, 10 in the general lane beside, and 5 in the other general lane. WB I count 2 HOV, 15 next general, and 9 in the other general. So in that case, WB (against general traffic direction) HOV is used less.

Then clicked Burnaby EB cam and count 7 cars HOV, 8 general 1, 4 general 1 eastbound, westbound I count 6 HOV, 6 general 1, 3 general 2.

Then click Port Mann up the hill towards Surrey: 6 HOV, 0 general 1, 3 general 2, 5 exit 152nd. Westbound, 2 HOV coming down hill, 3 general 1, 3 general 2.

So I dunno. Again if you look during rush hour you will see a spread but on a non-live webcam, you miss the key "speed" factor and the fact that cars in HOV are moving, cars in general lanes are barely so they stack up creating the illusion of more cars when the truth is the HOV lane could still very well be carrying far more traffic beyond the same point in the same time.

Again I'll wait until I see statistics because the webcams just really to me don't tell the whole story. They mainly seem to be backing my claims but sometimes they refresh and there is 1 car in the HOV and 8 in the general traffic 1 and 2 so then it contradicts meaning the collection method is flawed.