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  #4761  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2013, 6:07 PM
Smuttynose1 Smuttynose1 is offline
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Pittsburgh is getting a ton of "Rust-Belt-city- that-turned-itself-around" press in the wake of Detroit's bankruptcy filing

How Detroit can rise again
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/25/opinion/katz-bradley-detroit/index.html

Pittsburgh's lessons for Detroit
http://nation.time.com/2013/07/19/pittsburghs-lessons-for-detroit/

A tale of two Rust Belt cities
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/a-tale-of-two-rust-belt-cities/?_r=0

Pittsburgh booming
http://www.psmag.com/business-economics/burgh-disapora/pittsburgh-booming-63072/

Why Detroit won't have a Pittsburgh Renaissance
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2...Have-a-Pittsburgh-Renaissance.aspx#page1
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  #4762  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2013, 11:10 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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I think most of the commentary on Detroit v. Pittsburgh misses the most importance difference: time. Pittsburgh had its equivalent crisis 25-30 years before Detroit, and we'll see how Detroit is doing 25-30 years from now.
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  #4763  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 1:33 PM
PittPenn 03 PittPenn 03 is offline
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I'll gladly be labeled as a NIMBY on this one. This is going to be a nightmare for the residents surrounding the Thunderbird. I am actually considering putting my house up for sale over this one as I am already becoming a prisoner of my house after 9pm on weekends. Now we get to have an additional 300 to 400 cars pouring into the surrounding streets! And lets be realistic, the additional influx will likely be one or two to a car with drivers too cheap to use the valet for whatever lot they claim will take care of the overflow. The residents will be screwed on this. I am all for developing every empty building in Lawrenceville, but can we not have some practical businesses for these storefronts that will even out the daytime street activity and also keep residents from having to get in their cars for everyday needs? Do we need another playground neighborhood for the oh so hip? I know the writing was already on the wall for that within the last couple of years, but saying no to this could have put the brakes on this kind of development while there was still a chance to create a better residential neighborhood with pleasant practicality, more like Bloomfield or Sq Hill.
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  #4764  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 1:43 PM
themaguffin themaguffin is offline
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Actually Detroit is different. The automakers are doing well. Yes they have had ups and downs and are nowhere near their peak in US production, since automakers have either sent jobs elsewhere or otherwise reduced/shutdown lines.

But the automakers are doing well now. The problem is that the city has been in sharp decline for decades. The Detroit has grown at modestly during this time and not all of at the expense of the city.

If the overall job market for the metro is stable, the suburbs will still grow.
Pittsburgh the city and the region all suffered in the 70s and 80s and beyond.
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  #4765  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 2:15 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by PittPenn 03 View Post
The residents will be screwed on this.
Except for the increased property values, of course.

Quote:
Do we need another playground neighborhood for the oh so hip? I know the writing was already on the wall for that within the last couple of years, but saying no to this could have put the brakes on this kind of development while there was still a chance to create a better residential neighborhood with pleasant practicality, more like Bloomfield or Sq Hill.
The City's current population growth is concentrated among young adults. So yes, developing neighborhoods that are attractive to young adults is currently the most pressing need in the City.

Of course hopefully down the road some of those young adults convert to middle-aged adults with families and such, rather than all fleeing to the suburbs. But there are other neighborhoods much better suited to becoming the next Squirrel Hill than Lawrenceville.

Please understand I am not entirely unsympathetic to people who like things the way they are in places like Lawrenceville. But a growing, healthy, redeveloping city is going to experience change, and there are far too many sound public policy reasons to want to allow such changes to occur for it to be a good idea to let the NIMBYs have their way.
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  #4766  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 3:23 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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I think most of the commentary on Detroit v. Pittsburgh misses the most importance difference: time. Pittsburgh had its equivalent crisis 25-30 years before Detroit, and we'll see how Detroit is doing 25-30 years from now.
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Originally Posted by themaguffin View Post
Actually Detroit is different. The automakers are doing well. Yes they have had ups and downs and are nowhere near their peak in US production, since automakers have either sent jobs elsewhere or otherwise reduced/shutdown lines.

But the automakers are doing well now. The problem is that the city has been in sharp decline for decades. The Detroit has grown at modestly during this time and not all of at the expense of the city.

If the overall job market for the metro is stable, the suburbs will still grow.
Pittsburgh the city and the region all suffered in the 70s and 80s and beyond.
Agree with both above. I'm getting rather tired of these Detroit-Pittsburgh overly generalized articles. They seem to hold the underlying belief that all "rust belt" cities are the same... same histories, same economic and geographic characteristics, same problems, same "solutions". And that somehow if Detroit could just follow Pittsburgh's "model", then all would be on the rise in southeastern Michigan. It's silly.

Southeastern Michigan and Detroit are very different places than southwestern Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh. Whereas Pittsburgh proper is in arguably better shape than Detroit proper, the southeastern Michigan region is undoubtedly in far better shape economically than southwestern PA.
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  #4767  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PittPenn 03 View Post
I'll gladly be labeled as a NIMBY on this one. This is going to be a nightmare for the residents surrounding the Thunderbird. I am actually considering putting my house up for sale over this one as I am already becoming a prisoner of my house after 9pm on weekends. Now we get to have an additional 300 to 400 cars pouring into the surrounding streets! And lets be realistic, the additional influx will likely be one or two to a car with drivers too cheap to use the valet for whatever lot they claim will take care of the overflow. The residents will be screwed on this. I am all for developing every empty building in Lawrenceville, but can we not have some practical businesses for these storefronts that will even out the daytime street activity and also keep residents from having to get in their cars for everyday needs? Do we need another playground neighborhood for the oh so hip? I know the writing was already on the wall for that within the last couple of years, but saying no to this could have put the brakes on this kind of development while there was still a chance to create a better residential neighborhood with pleasant practicality, more like Bloomfield or Sq Hill.


If something like this makes you feel like selling your house, then you probably shouldn't be in Lawrenceville anyhow. It's not as if Butler St. hasn't had its fair share of bars, restaurants and nightlife spots for a number of years now, already! The Thunderbird owners have a good valet system in place, or at least it seems that way, so what exactly is the problem? I agree parking is tight in Lawrenceville, but hell, I live in the South Side and parking's a hell of a lot tougher there! You're a prisoner after 9pm? Really? Hyperbole much? You want Lawrenceville to be more like Squirrel Hill? Sorry, but it's a heck of a lot more like the South Side than Squirrel Hill both in housing styles, accessibility, location near the river, commercial business uses, restaurants and bars. Squirrel Hill is known for single family residences, generally larger ones that actually have some lawns, at least many of them. Lawrenceville is full of rowhomes and the like, much smaller residences, etc... Not even remotely similar.

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  #4768  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 3:40 PM
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the southeastern Michigan region is undoubtedly in far better shape economically than southwestern PA.
Can you elaborate on this?
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  #4769  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 3:59 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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That wasn't my comment, but I know both areas pretty well so a quick two cents:

Until recently I can understand why someone would make that claim. Outside of Detroit there were a lot of areas doing well, with a lot more financial and business services stuff than people often realize, a lot of technology stuff (including but not limited to stuff associated with local universities like the University of Michigan), a lot of real estate development, and so on. It certainly had its problem areas as well in addition to the City of Detroit (places like Flint), but overall it was doing pretty good.

In contrast, I think it is fair to say that until recently, most of the good news in the SWPA was limited to the urbanized area around Pittsburgh, and there were a lot more problems in the outlying areas.

That said, the real estate bubble and bust hurt SE Michigan a lot more than it hurt SWPA. Meanwhile central cities do matter, and obviously Pittsburgh is now on a much better track than Detroit. Finally, I am a bit of a Marcellus skeptic when it comes to how much it can contribute to overall regional growth, but I do think it is capable of a big impact in more limited areas that were often previously struggling.

So I'm not sure it is true that SE Michigan is currently in better shape than SWPA. But as of, say, 2004 or so, that would be a pretty reasonable conclusion.
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  #4770  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 4:05 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Can you elaborate on this?
I'd confidently assert that Pittsburgh's "suburban" river towns and suburbs have suffered far worse fates economically (or have never reached the economics highs of) than Detroit's suburban "executive" towns and cities... a la Birmingham, Troy, Bloomfield Hills, Rochester, Auburn Hills, Southfield, Farmington Hills, etc.

The Pittsburgh region has nothing like those places. The amount of wealth in the region is still quite impressive.
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  #4771  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 4:07 PM
DKNewYork DKNewYork is offline
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Westmoreland Museum of American Art Expansion

I don’t recall any discussion on this thread about the expansion of the Westmoreland Museum of American Art (here’s hoping that Greensburg is not too far afield to be included on the Pittsburgh page) but it’s a good project and worthy of mention.

Here is a link to an article from the Tribune-Review that explains the project and shows two current renderings of the project:

http://triblive.com/news/westmoreland/3506954-74/museum-board-expansion#axzz2aMAeOFl6

ENNEAD, the New York-based architecture firm that won the design competition, has come up with an interesting plan that provides the additional gallery and classroom space needed by the museum while also dealing with the aesthetic issues of the original building. The current building has an interesting history. In the late 50’s or very early 60s, the museum Board hired Philip Johnson to design its new museum. As Johnson was already one of the country’s most prominent modernists, it was a bold choice for a small regional art museum, particularly one located in Western Pennsylvania. Turned out that the Board loved the layout and look of the galleries in Johnson’s design but hated the exterior (too sterile and too modern) so much that Johnson was dumped and another firm was retained to do the design. This second firm, apparently, simply copied Johnson’s interiors and altered the exterior design by adding Georgian columns and pediment and lots of red brick. The result was awkward---the galleries were great but contained within an exterior that has always seemed oddly scaled and somehow wrong. The ENNEAD project, which is LEED Silver, adds a daring, new East Wing while masking the entire original façade behind a large glass curtain wall that protects a new interior walkway.

The project must be underway or about to start, as the museum has recently reinstalled its collection in a former furniture store on Route 30 so it can be viewed until the expanded museum is finished.
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  #4772  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 4:14 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Basically, if you've ever been to Detroit's moneyed suburbs, you would very soon realize that Shadyside, Sewickley, and Mt. Lebanon are shabby, discount substitutes for many of the wealthy suburban centers outside Detroit.
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  #4773  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 4:38 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Basically, if you've ever been to Detroit's moneyed suburbs, you would very soon realize that Shadyside, Sewickley, and Mt. Lebanon are shabby, discount substitutes for many of the wealthy suburban centers outside Detroit.
Hmm, not sure I agree about that, and I grew up in the area where some of the nicest suburbs are located in Detroit (Bloomfield Hills mailing address, Birmingham schools).

Last edited by BrianTH; Jul 29, 2013 at 5:02 PM.
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  #4774  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 4:59 PM
DKNewYork DKNewYork is offline
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I am enjoying the Pittsburgh v Detroit discussions as my in-laws live in Southfield and I get to Detroit a couple times a year.

The Atlantic has an ongoing project called The Atlantic Cities, which deals with all sorts of urban issues. The project is managed by Richard Florida, formerly of CMU and the author of The Rise of the Creative Class. I get a daily email with links to four or five articles, one of which today is yet another Pittsburgh-Detroit comparison, but with an interesting twist: It asks whether a more prominent, more prestigious university in Detroit might have helped change the city's trajectory, like CMU and Pitt did in Pittsburgh. I will admit that I have always thought this to be the case with Detroit---U of M is a great school but too far away from Detroit to be a real benefit to the city. The university has obviously helped Ann Arbor to develop but Detroit much less so. And U of D Mercy and Wayne State are just not prominent enough.

Here's the link:
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-an...rsity-have-made-difference-detroit/6350/
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  #4775  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 5:00 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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@BrianTH: Well, I don't know then... I have relatives in the area, and travel there quite a bit right now for work, but I'm not an expert on the area by any means. Though I've certainly recognized the higher-end/higher-rent feel and much greater extent of the main business district in a place like Birmingham as compared to say, Shadyside or Mt Lebo. And I know from a factual standpoint that a place like Oakland County in MI has no par in SW PA. I believe it's still one of the wealthier counties in the nation.
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  #4776  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 5:24 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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One fundamental problem with comparing the Detroit area to the Pittsburgh area is just that the overall pattern of development is SO different (a product of very different topographies and very different histories). For example, the Detroit area does have quite a few pockets of economically struggling areas, but they don't have the same sort of well-defined locale as the river communities in Pittsburgh (although the "Downriver" area in Detroit comes somewhat close). Conversely, Pittsburgh has produced fewer satellite areas with their own semi-independent concentrations of jobs, commercial activity, and residences (although places like Cranberry are again coming somewhat close). As a result, many of the nicest suburban areas in the Pittsburgh region are still pretty close in and still mostly functioning as bedroom communities. In fact some of the commentary on the City of Detroit's woes have pointed out that unlike with Pittsburgh, its major universities (e.g., the University of Michigan) are located in satellite areas (e.g., Ann Arbor). Additionally, as a result of these various dynamics I think Pittsburgh is more likely to have areas of very different socioeconomic class and historical vintage in close proximity, and so on.

So precise analogs are not really easy to find. That said, there are certainly large parts of the Fox Chapel area, the Sewickley area, the Mt. Lebanon/USC/Peters area, and so forth that remind me of the nicest Detroit suburbs in terms of things like the niceness of the housing/yards. For that matter, the East End has always reminded me a lot of Ann Arbor (where I have spent a lot of time, including several summers during college). Again, though, in Pittsburgh all that is not associated with satellite areas in the same way as in Detroit, so it makes it hard to really compare in any comprehensive way.

Edit: By the way, you could probably get something kinda close to Oakland County to the north or south of Pittsburgh with some different line drawing. The key would be to cut off Allegheny County right around the Pittsburgh border (ala Wayne County and Detroit), and then pull in some of the better areas on the borders of Allegheny County and other counties in the relevant direction (e.g., the Cranberry part of Butler, or the Peters part of Washington). The point I'm making is that part of why Oakland ranks reasonably highly by various measures is it benefits from favorable line-drawing.
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  #4777  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 5:29 PM
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While I would agree that the opulence of some of Detroit's wealthy neighborhoods outpaces those of Pittsburgh, I would disagree that this is evidence that SE Michigan is financially stronger than SW Pennsylvania.

Certainly SE Michigan has a larger population, and has a greater overall wealth and GDP. On the flip side, that wealth may be leaving for greener pastures. If you've got money and want to invest in an area - are you really going to do that in SE Michigan?

I was looking for info on their respective GDPs and came across the following (somewhat dated) link, which counters my thought process.

http://www.pittsburghtoday.org/view_GDP3.html

Not sure what forces where in play in Detroit that would suggest such a jump in GDP.
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  #4778  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 5:40 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Oh, and one last thing to keep in mind is that the population of SE Michigan is at least twice the population of SWPA. So everything is going to be bigger in SE Michigan, even before you account for very different patterns.
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  #4779  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 5:48 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Not sure what forces where in play in Detroit that would suggest such a jump in GDP.
A lot of that is bounce-back from the recession, with the Detroit area having been hammered both by the auto bust and the general real estate bust.

If you look back farther, in 2008 Detroit was at $193B, then it dropped to $179B in 2009, then it recovered to $199B by 2011. That chart is capturing just the last part of that series as Detroit is bouncing back.

For comparison, in 2008 Pittsburgh was at $110B, then it only dropped to $106B in 2009, then was back up to $118B by 2011.

So in percentage terms (and in fact even in gross terms), Pittsburgh did way better than Detroit from 2008 to 2011. But Detroit went through a deeper dip and then bounce-back that shows up as faster growth just at the end of that period.
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  #4780  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2013, 5:50 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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^ Yeah, I agree. My initial comment was that they are very different places -- and that's why these comparos which seem to want to equate all rust belt cities get kind of annoying... and I also think they tend to gloss over, or outright ignore, some of Pittsburgh's glaring issues which are still present in the region.
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