ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[jnihiser]

http://collierlofts.com/

[scania]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

You like Dunwoody? Fine, but don't try and compare Midtown with Dunwoody. Dunwoody is an office park with tall buildings, strip malls, and a hostile walking environment. It caters to the car, it is not urban, nor does saying that mean that people are sheltered, its just the truth. Dunwoody, Cobb Galleria area, etc. are just office parks with tall buildings. If you're into that, great, but its poor urban planning and not something we should elated about.

What makes you think they are concerned with urban planning. There plan wasn't meant to be what one would call urban. It's a great design for the purpose they intended.

Btw, whether a skyscraper has street level retail, or be apart of an office park, it is still a skyscraper! If people are excited/elated about that, that is great for them. After all, this is a SKYSCRAPER FORUM.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by ATL_J

YIt caters to the car, it is not urban, nor does saying that mean that people are sheltered, its just the truth.

So does this mean that in your view pretty much none of LA is urban? Is it that urban in your sense simply means lack of large, non-vertical parking lots?

It seems as though the perimeter does qualify as "urban" on at least a few fronts, including the census bureau definition (in this case by about 3x the threshold...and from the looks of it, actually higher than the city of Atl as a whole, which probably isn't a fair comparison in some senses, but still...for perspective's sake).

Now if you'd like to apply the term to suit a specific need, perhaps some more elaboration is in order. It could also make sense to say something like "not nearly as urban".

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to live up there personally. Though, as someone who works there, it isn't quite the nightmare some would have you think from a ped or cyclist's pov...especially not with 4 MARTA stations (really only three of which are all that relevant from a ped view).

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by scania

What makes you think they are concerned with urban planning.

Think I see your point, but seems like the Perimeter CID is one of the better ones in the metro area. It's just that they're dealing with a legacy of suburban (even small farms persist in a few pockets) use in the surrounding area, which limits their options for planning. I don't think many urban planners would turn their nose down at the work they do.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by delarosa

So does this mean that in your view pretty much none of LA is urban? Is it that urban in your sense simply means lack of large, non-vertical parking lots?

It seems as though the perimeter does qualify as "urban" on at least a few fronts, including the census bureau definition (in this case by about 3x the threshold...and from the looks of it, actually higher than the city of Atl as a whole, which probably isn't a fair comparison in some senses, but still...for perspective's sake).

Now if you'd like to apply the term to suit a specific need, perhaps some more elaboration is in order. It could also make sense to say something like "not nearly as urban".

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to live up there personally. Though, as someone who works there, it isn't quite the nightmare some would have you think from a ped or cyclist's pov...especially not with 4 MARTA stations (really only three of which are all that relevant from a ped view).

the census' definition of 'urban' is pretty weak. in fact, it's incredibly weak. check out their map of 'urban' areas in atlanta:

http://www2.census.gov/geo/maps/dc10map/UAUC_RefMap/ua/ua03817_atlanta_ga/DC10UA03817_000.pdf

if you can't open it, i'll give you the gist of it. according to the census, the entire metro area is essentially 'urban'. milton, holly springs, fairburn, even chattahoochee hills is defined as 'urban'. i'm not saying that dunwoody and perimeter center don't have urban characteristics, but the census' bureau is about the worst resource as to whether or not an area is urban or not.

the definition of urban in most people's mind is relatively narrow: land areas that have high percentages of residency, employment and retail in the same area, and meeting a certain population density (say 3,000 ppsm).

[Tuckerman]

After years of seeking a good definition of "urban", perhaps it is time to give up on any single definitive definition. Maybe we don't know for sure what the Perimeter complex is - but it is not small town Iowa where I grew up. Depending on how you would photograph it - it could appear as a big city downtown. Like Buckhead, it defies easy classification. Recently, while driving some Chinese visitors down 400 from the perimeter and they saw the buildings of Buckhead, they asked "Is this downtown ATL?" I said, "no, it is the main shopping area of Atlanta." of course, even that is not accurate because Buckhead has many big city functions and in many ways is just as much "Downtown" as Downtown. There is further confusion when you try to accurately define suburban. Is Inman Park suburban? Of course it is. Is Peachtree Circle in Midtown suburban, with 40 story buildings a block away? I agree with some others on this forum that we probably should focus on construction and skyscrapers wherever they are in the ATL metro area and leave the debate on urban-suburban- urban planning to the city discussion threads.

[scania]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

After years of seeking a good definition of "urban", perhaps it is time to give up on any single definitive definition. Maybe we don't know for sure what the Perimeter complex is - but it is not small town Iowa where I grew up. Depending on how you would photograph it - it could appear as a big city downtown. Like Buckhead, it defies easy classification. Recently, while driving some Chinese visitors down 400 from the perimeter and they saw the buildings of Buckhead, they asked "Is this downtown ATL?" I said, "no, it is the main shopping area of Atlanta." of course, even that is not accurate because Buckhead has many big city functions and in many ways is just as much "Downtown" as Downtown. There is further confusion when you try to accurately define suburban. Is Inman Park suburban? Of course it is. Is Peachtree Circle in Midtown suburban, with 40 story buildings a block away? I agree with some others on this forum that we probably should focus on construction and skyscrapers wherever they are in the ATL metro area and leave the debate on urban-suburban- urban planning to the city discussion threads.

Iowa??? I was just in Des Moines, and Pella last week!!!

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

What Cox are doing is not really urban to me. Can't even safely walk to their campus from Dunwoody Marta without risking getting run over. I just cannot fathom how there can be empty lots by the Marta yet they get zoning to build this.

Those "empty lots by the Marta" will eventually be this:

http://www.highstreetatlanta.com/indexFlash.html

How things are zoned throughout the entire area would probably shock you. As the economy continues to improve, you won't believe all the changes in store for the Perimeter area.

[delarosa]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

the census' definition of 'urban' is pretty weak. in fact, it's incredibly weak. check out their map of 'urban' areas in atlanta:

the definition of urban in most people's mind is relatively narrow: land areas that have high percentages of residency, employment and retail in the same area, and meeting a certain population density (say 3,000 ppsm).

Definitely multiple definitions, which is why I asked the question. Last I looked Dunwoody had something like 3500 per sq mile, but I'd be willing to bet Perimeter CID has that info.

So in terms of weakness vs strength, that in itself begs the question as to what urban actually is (per any given usage anyways).

As I said there, I don't live there and most likely wouldn't. And prefer a different aesthetic and dynamic. That said, I personally think what happening in that area is an example of public/private partnership and very active planning given a set of circumstances and environment that has been dealt them and doing a very decent job of it.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by delarosa

Definitely multiple definitions, which is why I asked the question. Last I looked Dunwoody had something like 3500 per sq mile, but I'd be willing to bet Perimeter CID has that info.

So in terms of weakness vs strength, that in itself begs the question as to what urban actually is (per any given usage anyways).

As I said there, I don't live there and most likely wouldn't. And prefer a different aesthetic and dynamic. That said, I personally think what happening in that area is an example of public/private partnership and very active planning given a set of circumstances and environment that has been dealt them and doing a very decent job of it.

I could not agree more. Just a glance at that last aerial of the Cox complex shows the dense residential across the street under the tree cover.

The streets that loop around behind Park Place and Ravinia across from Perimeter Mall are packed with pretty high density apartments and condos that replaced older office buildings. Like you, I really wouldn't want to live there, but obviously a lot of people do - and that's a very good thing.

[testarossa50]

I walk basically everywhere, and the Perimeter area isn't THAT terrible with regard to pedestrian access. The real problem, as I see it, is a lack of residential density. And getting quality residential up there is going to be tough--most of the U/C stuff appears to be of the fortress variety, I'm afraid.

A walkable hotel/residential/retail district designed for reasonable night activity would be a huge, huge boon to the area and the northside. High Street seems to have some potential for that. But that market is way more conducive to office development, so that's what we're mostly seeing.

[scania]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Those "empty lots by the Marta" will eventually be this:

http://www.highstreetatlanta.com/indexFlash.html

How things are zoned throughout the entire area would probably shock you. As the economy continues to improve, you won't believe all the changes in store for the Perimeter area.

That High Street is pretty cool.

[scania]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

I walk basically everywhere, and the Perimeter area isn't THAT terrible with regard to pedestrian access. The real problem, as I see it, is a lack of residential density. And getting quality residential up there is going to be tough--most of the U/C stuff appears to be of the fortress variety, I'm afraid.

A walkable hotel/residential/retail district designed for reasonable night activity would be a huge, huge boon to the area and the northside. High Street seems to have some potential for that. But that market is way more conducive to office development, so that's what we're mostly seeing.

I agree...whoever said the walking environment up there was HOSTILE, is ridiculous.

[Tuckerman]

Originally Posted by scania

Iowa??? I was just in Des Moines, and Pella last week!!!

It was Oelwein - in NE Iowa the reputed Methland (google it) - about 8000 when I lived there, a little smaller than Pella - but not the metropolis of Des Moines!

[atlantaguy]

I agree guys, High Street is very cool. It will definitely be a huge game changer for the area.

The large office building across Hammond from there (directly opposite Chequers and north of the Marriott) has been up-zoned to allow two 20 story residential towers on the parking lot facing Hammond. That whole area right across from the Dunwoody train station is set to blow up.

testarossa50, I used to work in the silver building across from California Pizza Kitchen on Ashford Dunwoody. I took the train out there every day, and if I missed the shuttle I just walked to my office. It wasn't bad at all. The sidewalks and pedestrian crossings the CID has put in are perfectly fine, imo. Perimeter is hardly the hell on Earth it is portrayed to be on this forum.

What's amazing to me is that this was all dairy farms just 40 years ago!

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

What's amazing to me is that this was all dairy farms just 40 years ago!

The change has been phenomenal.

That gives the area more potential for "blank slate" development. (And no above ground utilities).

Once High Street and some of the other developments come online, we'll have an urban core that stretches from Five Points to the Perimeter. And hopefully south to Fort Mac in the not too distant future.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by arjay57

The change has been phenomenal.

That gives the area more potential for "blank slate" development. (And no above ground utilities).

Once High Street and some of the other developments come online, we'll have an urban core that stretches from Five Points to the Perimeter. And hopefully south to Fort Mac in the not too distant future.

When my family moved from the north to the south in 1974 our first house was on Duncannon Ct. in Chamblee. I remember as a 7th grade kid walking to Perimeter Mall by cutting through back yards and woods to reach the Ashford Dunwoody bridge over 285. We'd be passing farms and single family residences and then, bam! ...there was the mall. It looked so weird and out of place back then. Like the last thing you expected to see would be a mall. There was no other commercial development nearby back then. None.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by SteveD

When my family moved from the north to the south in 1974 our first house was on Duncannon Ct. in Chamblee. I remember as a 7th grade kid walking to Perimeter Mall by cutting through back yards and woods to reach the Ashford Dunwoody bridge over 285. We'd be passing farms and single family residences and then, bam! ...there was the mall. It looked so weird and out of place back then. Like the last thing you expected to see would be a mall. There was no other commercial development nearby back then. None.

We're pretty close in age Steve. We lived here for a year and a half when I was a kid, but we moved to Florida before they built Perimeter Mall. An open air, unenclosed Lenox and Downtown were still the shopping meccas. I remember coming back for a visit about this time and freaking out that they had built Perimeter 'all the way out there!'

I also remember 285 back then was only two lanes in each direction, with a huge grass median. The transformation of the entire metro is nothing short of amazing in our lifetimes.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

We're pretty close in age Steve. We lived here for a year and a half when I was a kid, but we moved to Florida before they built Perimeter Mall. An open air, unenclosed Lenox and Downtown were still the shopping meccas. I remember coming back for a visit about this time and freaking out that they had built Perimeter 'all the way out there!'

I also remember 285 back then was only two lanes in each direction, with a huge grass median. The transformation of the entire metro is nothing short of amazing in our lifetimes.

Yes I was going to mention two lanes in each direction but I didn't want my post to get too cluttered.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by SteveD

Yes I was going to mention two lanes in each direction but I didn't want my post to get too cluttered.

Who cares? It's not as if there is any breaking development news today!

Maybe some of the younger folks here can learn something about our not too distant past.