Mueller Area Development Updates

[M1EK]

Chris Bradford, a.k.a. the Austin Contrarian, also stopped by the new Mueller HEB:

http://www.austincontrarian.com/aust...eller-heb.html

Mueller was supposed to demonstrate that a compact, walkable, mixed-use development can flourish even in Austin. It was to be a sort of New Urbanist proving ground. The Mueller web site even invokes New Urbanism as its guiding philosophy:

Keep going. It's worth it.

[M1EK]

By the way, I do not buy this transect nonsense at all. At all. It's just an excuse; a rationalization; to explain why this development, and so many others, seem to get something so simple so very wrong.

[Global]

Originally Posted by M1EK

By the way, I do not buy this transect nonsense at all. At all. It's just an excuse; a rationalization; to explain why this development, and so many others, seem to get something so simple so very wrong.

I agree with the Contrarian article. He's pretty much simply pointing out that it is primarily built for customers arriving by car. And "they" are right. Even if they built it more pedestrian friendly, by far, most customers would be arriving by car. Have you been to the downtown Wholefoods? Most customers arrive there by car too. To me this says nothing of the FAILURE in planning of Mueller, it simply shows (by the sheer popularity of Mueller) that the developers got it pretty close to right (i.e. they realized that despite many people's ideal wishes for walking to a grocery store, they knew they'd probably be walking or biking despite their stated ideals.). So, if you ask me, it's not a failure, even if I wish Austin as a city and Mueller as a development were all 50 years ahead of where we are.

That said, I will bet you there will be a significant number of cyclists....and this is realistic. Afterall, the surrounding neighborhoods are much more cycle friendly than pedestrian friendly, excluding Mueller.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Global

I agree with the Contrarian article. He's pretty much simply pointing out that it is primarily built for customers arriving by car. And "they" are right. Even if they built it more pedestrian friendly, by far, most customers would be arriving by car. Have you been to the downtown Wholefoods? Most customers arrive there by car too. To me this says nothing of the FAILURE in planning of Mueller, it simply shows (by the sheer popularity of Mueller) that the developers got it pretty close to right (i.e. they realized that despite many people's ideal wishes for walking to a grocery store, they knew they'd probably be walking or biking despite their stated ideals.). So, if you ask me, it's not a failure, even if I wish Austin as a city and Mueller as a development were all 50 years ahead of where we are.

That said, I will bet you there will be a significant number of cyclists....and this is realistic. Afterall, the surrounding neighborhoods are much more cycle friendly than pedestrian friendly, excluding Mueller.

It's not primarily built for customers arriving by car; it's pretty much exclusively built for customers arriving by car; and the downtown Whole Foods is a billion times better in this regard.

Even Fresh Plus does much better.

[Komeht]

Originally Posted by M1EK

It's not primarily built for customers arriving by car; it's pretty much exclusively built for customers arriving by car; and the downtown Whole Foods is a billion times better in this regard.

Even Fresh Plus does much better.

That kind of exaggeration undercuts the basic argument. It's not build exclusively for customers arriving by car - there is at least one very pedestrian/bike orient approach from Mueller via Garcia and I'll wager right now a significant percentage of shoppers from Mueller and Windsor Park indeed arrive by bike or on foot.

And WFs isn't a "billion times" better - it too has a large parking lot fronting Lamar, 6th and 5th street. The underground parking is nice but a set back is a set back is a set back. When I walk on the sidewalk fronting Lamar I see a large parking lot between me and the entrance to whole foods - it's not really much more urban than Mueller despite the wink and nod to urbanism it gives with the underground parking.

[wwmiv]

Actually agreed. The only thing that makes Whole Foods more urban is the context. It is in a more urban place, therefore it more urban. If the two switched places, HEB would be more urban.

[Global]

Originally Posted by M1EK

It's not primarily built for customers arriving by car; it's pretty much exclusively built for customers arriving by car; and the downtown Whole Foods is a billion times better in this regard.

Even Fresh Plus does much better.

Be realistic. Most people go grocery shopping once a week. No one is going to carry 5 bags of groceries even 2 or 3 blocks, though they might do on a bike. Fresh Plus is a large convenience store basically (OK, I'm exaggerating a bit)...as far as that goes, Mueller has a convenience store too (with no parking).

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Komeht

That kind of exaggeration undercuts the basic argument. It's not build exclusively for customers arriving by car - there is at least one very pedestrian/bike orient approach from Mueller via Garcia and I'll wager right now a significant percentage of shoppers from Mueller and Windsor Park indeed arrive by bike or on foot.

Go try and make that argument against AC. Come on. This is not a "very pedestrian/bike orient approach"; it's an ugly back door. Look at the pictures.

And WFs isn't a "billion times" better - it too has a large parking lot fronting Lamar, 6th and 5th street. The underground parking is nice but a set back is a set back is a set back. When I walk on the sidewalk fronting Lamar I see a large parking lot between me and the entrance to whole foods - it's not really much more urban than Mueller despite the wink and nod to urbanism it gives with the underground parking.

WF has entrances that do not require crossing parking (on 5th and 6th); and the parking they do have out front is substantially less than the HEB has. Also, WF only has that parking because Laura Morrison forced it on them.

Your argument shows how you're just looking to rationalize rather than actually engage. Earlier I made the point that an urban grocer can still have a parking lot, but it should be on a 'side' rather than in the 'front'. Obviously a grocer taking up a whole block is going to have the 'which side is the front' issue, but peds on both 5th and 6th have a building edge coming all the way up to the street, and peds on 6th have a very nice walk into the building which does not require any parking lot crossing. HEB at Mueller has a really crappy, very long, walk from the street (Berkman), or a very long, really crappy, walk across a parking lot (from 51st).

As for the remaining points - yes, people do shop more often than once a week - IF they have the option. I lived near Fresh Plus in Clarksville and did not drive for groceries for ten years. I got something there every day or two or three, and spent less time overall, and definitely wasted less food. That's a change from what I did before, when I lived up north and drove to the Parmer HEB once a week, for sure. Here's the hint: When you live close enough to walk, and the walk is nice enough, you actually WANT to go more often.

[Komeht]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Go try and make that argument against AC. Come on. This is not a "very pedestrian/bike orient approach"; it's an ugly back door. Look at the pictures.



WF has entrances that do not require crossing parking (on 5th and 6th); and the parking they do have out front is substantially less than the HEB has. Also, WF only has that parking because Laura Morrison forced it on them.

Your argument shows how you're just looking to rationalize rather than actually engage. Earlier I made the point that an urban grocer can still have a parking lot, but it should be on a 'side' rather than in the 'front'. Obviously a grocer taking up a whole block is going to have the 'which side is the front' issue, but peds on both 5th and 6th have a building coming all the way up to the street, and peds on 6th have a very nice walk into the building which does not require any parking lot crossing.

As for the remaining points - yes, people do shop more often than once a week - IF they have the option. I lived near Fresh Plus in Clarksville and did not drive for groceries for ten years. I got something there every day or two or three, and spent less time overall, and definitely wasted less food. That's a change from what I did before, when I lived up north and drove to the Parmer HEB once a week, for sure. Here's the hint: When you live close enough to walk, and the walk is nice enough, you actually WANT to go more often.

1. The pedestrian approach not an ugly back door - it's a commercial street with 5 businesses on one side and a TBD building on the other with a graciously wide covered and tree lined sidewalk and it leads right up to the very welcoming front awning. I'll take a picture tomorrow or the next day so you can see.

2. Mueller HEB has one entrance instead of two that doesn't require crossing a parking lot. So maybe WFs is twice as good instead of a Billion Times better.

3. How is whether Laura Morrison forcing a setback parking lot on WFs make it any more urban than HEB requiring it due to their business models?

Both buildings have setbacks, both have parking in front. WFs has more entrances and a little less parking out front, Mueller has opted to front Berkman with a series of shops, restaurants, and services. Both have some accommodations for pedestrians, neither are as purely urban as you or I would like.

4. Re: rationalizing vs engaging. I honestly have no idea what you are talking about because I have given each post of yours thoughtful consideration and nuanced (not knee-jerk responses). I can't say I've received the same deference and respect in return.

5. I don't know what point you're making about frequency of shopping here since I never brought it up. However, with your last sentence I COMPLETELY AGREE. And, I think you'll find that Mueller residents generally live very close and will probably find the approach via Berkman to Garcia quite pleasant and will indeed walk and bike there in much greater numbers than you seem to assume.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Global

Be realistic. Most people go grocery shopping once a week. No one is going to carry 5 bags of groceries even 2 or 3 blocks, though they might do on a bike.

I do this. I ride up to one of our two grocery stores a few times a month to once or twice a week.

It's an easy ride. Most of the trip is through the neighborhood. It's a 2 mile ride round trip. I have a large backpack with tons of pockets and padding. I can carry a week's worth or more of groceries in it. I also keep our reusable bags in it for convenience. Whenever I get to the store I take out the bag and carry all my groceries in the bag. I rarely even use baskets or shopping carts anymore. My backpack is able to carry everything with relative ease. Anything that can't get squished like bread, chips or eggs I simply place in the bag and carry it on my handlebars. And for multiple heavy items, I have a seatpost cargo rack on my bike that I can carry another 15 to 20 pounds on. I've even carried a 17 pound bag of cat food by strapping it to my frame. I haven't found anything at the store yet that I haven't been able to carry on my bike.

So it can be done.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by Komeht

1. The pedestrian approach not an ugly back door

Compare and contrast this:



to this, just taken off of google streetview:



Does this make anything more clear?

Honestly, I'm feeling like some of you think I'm making up Fresh Plus, like it's some kind of unicorn of legend or something. It's real; you can go to it today, if you want to see what "incremental urban" or "not half-bad" really looks like.

[Komeht]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Compare and contrast this:



to this, just taken off of google streetview:



Does this make anything more clear?

Honestly, I'm feeling like some of you think I'm making up Fresh Plus, like it's some kind of unicorn of legend or something. It's real; you can go to it today, if you want to see what "incremental urban" or "not half-bad" really looks like.

I'm well familiar with Fresh Plus, both Hyde Park and Clarksville - probably spent more shopping days there than you have, for the record.

In any case - this is the perspective of the pedestrian - who is not walking down the middle of the road.



Corner cafe on the left wide sidewalk ahead - 4 other businesses opening up onto the sidewalk - shade for comfort, trees and row of parked cars for safety.





This is looking back towards Berkman:



And this is looking at the buildings like the street view:



Note a few things: The businesses aren't open yet - so missing the sense of life that will bring to the street. I grant it certainly does not have the patina of age that the storefront at the Fresh Plus has. Also, the other side of the street will have another building fronting the road which will frame the street in and give it a more complete sense of place.

[M1EK]

VERY misleading orientation. The nicer walk you show is on the wrong side of the 'street' - that user will have to cross a parking lot to enter the front door. And they're still having to go quite a bit further than is the motorist.

Compare/contrast to Fresh Plus, whose front door is clearly on the sidewalk (a side door is on the parking lot side; the motorist is the one who has to walk further to get into the aisles of the store).

Again, if you claim to see no difference between these on the walkability front, you are being fundamentally dishonest.

[Komeht]

Originally Posted by M1EK

VERY misleading orientation. The nicer walk you show is on the wrong side of the 'street' - that user will have to cross a parking lot to enter the front door. And they're still having to go quite a bit further than is the motorist.

Compare/contrast to Fresh Plus, whose front door is clearly on the sidewalk (a side door is on the parking lot side; the motorist is the one who has to walk further to get into the aisles of the store).

Again, if you claim to see no difference between these on the walkability front, you are being fundamentally dishonest.

I make no claim there's "no difference" - however you are completely dismissive that there in fact is a good pedestrian approach - one that the Mueller community will use every day. And nothing about my orientation is "misleading" it's the sidewalk, along which pedestrians from Mueller will happen to walk. As a matter of fact the picture you posted was indeed misleading since pedestrians by and large will not be walking down the center of the street.

I grant that the approaches from Windsor Park are not good.

[Syndic]

I'm tired of this "Mueller is not urban" conversation. Who cares if it's urban? Seriously. That doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. Plenty of suburban places are interesting. Most Austinites don't live and work in a walkable neighborhood. If you can't get over the fact that it's not urban, then don't visit it. It's that simple. But most Austinites grew up in suburbia, so we can mentally handle a little non-urbanism.

People just bash Mueller for cool points. Fresh Plus is suburban compared to many places in America. But you still like it, don't you?

[H2O]

The original plan for Mueller had the grocery store in the middle of the town center, and the location of the market district was lower density (for Mueller) housing. By moving the HEB to the market district location, the town center will more dense, and there will be additional retail. If you think HEB would have built at Mueller without surface parking, I have some swamp land and a bridge for sale.

[M1EK]

Originally Posted by H2O

The original plan for Mueller had the grocery store in the middle of the town center, and the location of the market district was lower density (for Mueller) housing. By moving the HEB to the market district location, the town center will more dense, and there will be additional retail. If you think HEB would have built at Mueller without surface parking, I have some swamp land and a bridge for sale.

And this is why this discussion grows so frustrating.

I believe H20 knows I'm not saying HEB should have been built with no surface parking. He?'s a smart guy - and has seen me talk approvingly about surface parking on the side at Fresh Plus.

So why on earth would he jump to this swamp analogy trying to paint me as somebody who insists we could have gotten HEB to build with no surface parking at all?

Anybody want to guess?

[Global]

Most of us here are not interested in turning these conversations about our city into latent personal attacks on each other. If any of you know each other outside this forum, please work out your issues somewhere else.

[wwmiv]

Yet again, M1EK, you are venturing into very negative personal attacks that I wish you'd avoid.

[KevinFromTexas]

At least there is a sidewalk. I tell you what. If there's a sidewalk and I'm walking, I'll walk on it. And that street isn't so wide that I can't cross it.

Question: is there anything planned for the vacant field next to the HEB?

Also, Mike, you're not being completely honest with those photos. Now don't take that as any sort of attack, but you show the approach to the HEB at Mueller, but for the Fresh Plus photo you show the front of the store. What's the approach like on that? I'll admit, I'm not familiar with either of them, but any store location anywhere isn't going to be able to control the land next to it.

So I went and looked, there are no sidewalks on East 43rd Street east of Duval Street for one's approach on foot to Fresh Plus. Granted East 43rd dead ends maybe 500 feet from there, but that means some street walking for residents there. Or in the grass. And west of Avenue H on East 43rd Street, there is only a sidewalk on the south side of the street. So pedestrians would still need to cross that street to be on a sidewalk. The Duval route looked, good, though. I even counted 8 or 9 pedestrians. And extra points for the bike lanes on Duval Street.

While these two stores are in a differently built environment, they're really not all that dissimilar in their obstacles for pedestrians. They both have sidewalks leading to them, though there are some breaks in the sidewalks (or none), and some obstacles like the parking lot. And you'll still need to cross the street at both. One point of note is that the speed limits around the HEB and the amount of traffic is probably less than what you'd encounter on East 43rd Street.

Anyway, I'd probably still prefer the Fresh Plus neighborhood over the one surrounding the HEB. Of course I'm sure there are some nice areas of Mueller where it isn't so bad.