ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by shivtim

With Emory, CDC, the VA, Children's Healthcare, etc, the Clifton Corridor is actually one of the largest employment centers in the entire state of Georgia. Emory alone has 24,000 employees, while Georgia Tech has only 6,000.

While I'd love to see the east-west line, the Clifton Corridor line is far and away the most needed rail line in metro Atlanta.

And in Atlanta, it's employment (not residential density or "popularity" of a neighborhood) that drives transit use. Some more info on commuting patterns:
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%20Li...Transportation/RS_April_2012_Workers.pdf

Emory and the CDC employ over 30,000 before adding in the students, the VA, and residential traffic in an area with no interstate access. Its important enough that even the state should be involved in addressing the transportation issue for that corridor but the only known transportation solution by GDOT is not possible in the area.

[Inman Parker]

Originally Posted by shivtim

And in Atlanta, it's employment (not residential density or "popularity" of a neighborhood) that drives transit use. Some more info on commuting patterns:
http://www.atlantaregional.com/File%20Li...Transportation/RS_April_2012_Workers.pdf

I would counter this point by saying that the reason that residential density or popularity of a neighborhood dont drive transit use is because the transit doesnt connect dense or "popular" neighborhoods. Midtown is the only "popular" neighborhood that has quality marta access and there arent many neighborhoods that make it easy for residents to take marta into midtown.

Do the CDC and Emory employees have access to parking? If so, are they charged for that? From my experience, most marta commuters only do so when their jobs do not offer free or affordable parking, which happens in a more dense areas such as midtown or downtown. If given the option to drive or take marta for an equivalent price, I anticipate that most will drive.

[shivtim]

^Decatur is a lively/popular station, yet Avondale station has a higher number of daily users. It's complex.

When it comes down to it, the Clifton line has better ridership projections per mile.
Lindbergh to Emory rail (3.7 miles) - projected 10,300 daily boardings.
Beltline/crosstown rail (6.8 miles; from westside across North or 10th, then down the Beltline to connect to the streetcar) - projected 11,800 daily boardings.

Emory has very expensive parking, while CDC does not charge for parking. The traffic in the area is so horrendous at rush hour, I think people would be willing to switch to transit even if they already have free parking. In addition, all Federal workplaces (including CDC) subsidize transit if workers use it. In Atlanta, it would be a free monthly MARTA pass.

Again, I think both lines would be very useful, and the other two needed projects are rail to Vinings/Cumberland and commuter rail out I-20 in South Dekalb. There's also a strong argument to be made that an east/west route in Atlanta should trump a Clifton route because it's actually in the city and could promote intown development and transit use.

[AtlantaMustang]

I went to Tech, and I don't think a new line past Tech would really increase ridership. The trolley already goes directly to the Midtown Station, so there's already a link there. It's pretty frequent too, and a lot of Tech students and faculty already use Marta. Not saying I wouldn't like to see the line, but I think the one to Emory is probably more necessary. I hope both happen long term.

[Inman Parker]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang

I went to Tech, and I don't think a new line past Tech would really increase ridership. The trolley already goes directly to the Midtown Station, so there's already a link there. It's pretty frequent too, and a lot of Tech students and faculty already use Marta. Not saying I wouldn't like to see the line, but I think the one to Emory is probably more necessary. I hope both happen long term.

You dont think that a ton of tech students would use a line the connected their campus with ponce area, highland, inman park and the westside? I would be curious to see the number of tech students the live in those areas or go to those areas regularly, i would bet that its probably pretty high.

I see your point about the clifton corridor, but also think at this point point Atlanta cant chase density in hopes of MARTA become a more popular commuter rail M-F at two time of the day. The East/West line has potential to appeal to commuters, resident weekenders and tourists, while continuing the density trend in those areas. Whether you are traveling by train or by car, driving over ten miles each way to work is going to take a while. The real way to solve this issue is a more centralized Atlanta. Of course, I dont have any background in this industry, just my opinion.

[AtlantaMustang]

Originally Posted by Inman Parker

You dont think that a ton of tech students would use a line the connected their campus with ponce area, highland, inman park and the westside? I would be curious to see the number of tech students the live in those areas or go to those areas regularly, i would bet that its probably pretty high.

I see your point about the clifton corridor, but also think at this point point Atlanta cant chase density in hopes of MARTA become a more popular commuter rail M-F at two time of the day. The East/West line has potential to appeal to commuters, resident weekenders and tourists, while continuing the density trend in those areas. Whether you are traveling by train or by car, driving over ten miles each way to work is going to take a while. The real way to solve this issue is a more centralized Atlanta. Of course, I dont have any background in this industry, just my opinion.

I agree. Clifton Corridor is pretty much just more of the same, but it is VERY needed. The Beltline and crosstown connections are more transformational and will change the way the city actually functions. Again, I'm all for the east/west Midtown lines, and I would use those more. I just think the Emory line is more necessary for the metro, while the Midtown/Beltline is more necessary for the city.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang

I agree. Clifton Corridor is pretty much just more of the same, but it is VERY needed. The Beltline and crosstown connections are more transformational and will change the way the city actually functions. Again, I'm all for the east/west Midtown lines, and I would use those more. I just think the Emory line is more necessary for the metro, while the Midtown/Beltline is more necessary for the city.

The Emory line will also connect with the Beltline and two MARTA lines at Lindbergh. So that is a really super critical connection for the east and north sides of the city.

[atlantaguy]

We need both. The Emory connection would link the largest concentration of employment in the entire region not served by an expressway or rail to the network. As has already been stated, the traffic in the Clifton Corridor is horrendous. Anyone that's been on Clairmont, North Decatur or Briarcliff during peak hours is totally familiar with the gridlock there. It's beyond insane for such a vital hub of our metro and the entire region, and it's becoming worse by the day. Meanwhile, Emory Village has been retrofitted with roundabouts, streetscaping and new development. Emory is embarking on a massive hospital expansion. Emory Point is a resounding success, and we've only seen phase I. This area is beyond ready to embrace transit.

I know we can't count on our idiot Senators or dysfunctional State to initiate any funding, but I've heard rumblings that John Lewis is exploring Federal dollars for this as the CDC needs accessibility "in the Nations interest." This could do the trick, and could potentially unlock a HUGE Federal grant to get things moving.

If Charlotte can secure a $1.4 billion grant to expand LRT from Uptown to UNCC, surely we can do the same.

The crosstown routes connecting the BeltLine with the Westside are also a major priority. I believe that Invest Atlanta/the BeltLine/MARTA are exploring every possible funding situation to make this happen, including public/private partnerships.

Despite the failure of TSPLOST, these are actually pretty exciting (yet frustrating) times for transit, IF you look deep enough.

[bryantm3]

what about about both? you could build a "loop line" that would serve both corridors, using part of the existing east/west line tracks. the clifton corridor section would be less expensive, but it would provide crucial west midtown and north/ponce corridor coverage. here's a mockup i did:

http://goo.gl/maps/LiL9O

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

what about about both? you could build a "loop line" that would serve both corridors, using part of the existing east/west line tracks. the clifton corridor section would be less expensive, but it would provide crucial west midtown and north/ponce corridor coverage. here's a mockup i did:

http://goo.gl/maps/LiL9O

The loop needs to go a little further north in order to tie into the Beltline and the MARTA red and gold lines at Lindbergh. That's one of the most critical transit connections in the city.

I can't think of too many other places where we could connect three MARTA lines and the Beltline. (As well as I-85 and GA 400).

[atlantaguy]

^What arjay57 said.

While it's a great idea bryantm3, I don't think it's allowed for LRT to mix it up on the same tracks as HRT (as MARTA is).

The idea is brilliant, though! We definitely need more 'thinking outside of the box' like this.

[mahanakorn]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

I don't think it's allowed for LRT to mix it up on the same tracks as HRT (as MARTA is).

I know the US has special crash-worthiness regulations for pax transit vehicles operating on lines with freight traffic, but I believe LRT and Metro pax vehicles (of the same gauge and boarding floor height) can share the same rails and stations.

The Amsterdam Metro is an example of such a system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro). Not aware of any running in the US, however. In LA, for example, which runs a mixed system, the LRT lines don't share tracks with the Red and Purple heavy Metro lines.

P.S. Really like the loop idea!

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

I've never heard that expression either, but in Mexico there is something very similar (and very similar to the buses on Buford Hwy) that are known as collectevo's - and I probably butchered the spelling.

I'm snagging this from the Atlanta construction thread so as not to divert it. In that thread Libertarian commented on a form of transit known as marshrutkas. They're similar to the Royal buses that run on Buford Highway.

To follow up on atlantaguy's comment above, I think these would be terrific in Atlanta. In my opinion frequency and low cost are critical to making public transit work. If you know a vehicle -- be it a trolley, a jitney or a regular bus -- will be coming along within a few minutes and that the cost is low, I believe a lot more people will ride.

One of the biggest deterrents to using MARTA buses is that it can take forever to get from Point A to Point B. And if you miss your bus, the wait time can be very lengthy.

Add to that a stiff fare and they are a less attractive option. There was a pretty good article along these lines the other day in Atlantic Cities:
How to Fund Transit Without Raising Fares or Cutting Service

Anyway, just rambling.

[Libertarian]

Atlanta is not a dense traditional city; we should look at anything providing cheap, practical alternatives. Imagine that jitney bus routes could be controlled by passengers with use of tracking/dispatch apps on their devices rather than having hardset routes, with a veto or override by the operator. Let's say for example that certain vehicles are generally tasked with picking up at doorsteps in North Decatur and delivering to Emory/CDC. If the jitney is near empty and not leaving for the destination area very soon, or not available in the area at all, then the passenger has the option to take their pov or bicycle to work. I'm not a software developer, but would imagine that it's not that complicated and could be made available to every jitney operator in a metro region. So at the end of the workday the CDC employee could dispatch another jitney that's headed to midtown for some cultural/social activity, and then take Marta back to Decatur!

[Alfred E Neuman]

I have a mint copy of Atlanta Magazine, May 1961 Vol 1 No. 1.
The cover is an illustration of a 'future' downtown cityscape. I noticed that crisscrossing the view are 'streetcar' electric lines. Thought that was interesting from 52 years ago.

[trainiac]

Here's the first caution sign I've seen for the streetcar. Edgewood near the fire station

[Alfred E Neuman]

Originally Posted by trainiac

Here's the first caution sign I've seen for the streetcar. Edgewood near the fire station

Wouldn't the Streetcar be facing East from there? Not sure, but it seem the graphic should be facing other direction. Please correct if wrong.

[trainiac]

Originally Posted by Alfred E Neuman

Wouldn't the Streetcar be facing East from there? Not sure, but it seem the graphic should be facing other direction. Please correct if wrong.

Ahh, come on! It won't even be running until next year. For the record, yes, you are correct; but won't that make cars yield more readily if they think it's coming right at 'em?

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by Alfred E Neuman

Wouldn't the Streetcar be facing East from there? Not sure, but it seem the graphic should be facing other direction. Please correct if wrong.

What? Are you serious? That's now how signs work. The Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) sets standards for signs that indicate the entry into a shared track/roadway ahead. They aren't customized per location. Even if they were, the sign would be correct as the front and back of the vehicle look the exact same, so how do you know the sign shows a westbound train?

[Alfred E Neuman]

Originally Posted by Terminus

What? Are you serious? That's now how signs work. The Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices (MUTCD) sets standards for signs that indicate the entry into a shared track/roadway ahead. They aren't customized per location. Even if they were, the sign would be correct as the front and back of the vehicle look the exact same, so how do you know the sign shows a westbound train?

Yes I was serious, Terminus. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. Please understand, some of us are enthusiasts not experts.