Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[citydwlr]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

From the City of Ottawa website:

*IMAGES*

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/planning-and-development/week-lansdowne

Nice to see all the progress, but it kinda sucks that the roof on the north-side stands is flat. The original designs called for an arched roof, presumably to match the arch on the curved south-side stands. Oh well! The rest of the park looks solid, so I can't complain too much...

[alecz_dad]

Gee, I preferred to see John Martin as a Don Quixote figure. (Although we all remember how he ended up.)

I recall first encountering him at the Tom Brown Arena "consultation," where the City had deigned to permit him to set up outside of the room where the City/OSMUG dog and pony show was going on.

His, was a rhetorical response to the naked corporate power that was being exercised, and masterfully, by OSMUG in hypnotizing the City into signing on for this scheme.

Initially, I think he really did begin by first posing the question, "Is there no alternative to the corporate plan?" It was the question central to the critics' opposition to the scheme, and attacked the fundamental assertion that if you opposed OSMUG's plan, you were in favour of more years of delay and decay.

Over time, he elaborated that first question into another: "What might an alternative look like?" This was one of the central weaknesses of the critics' side; that they could not offer a clear vision of what they thought Lansdowne should be, apart from NOT the scheme OSMUG proposed. This was of course hard, because the volunteers of Friends of Lansdowne were diverse, and, well, voluntary, and so could not muster the same resources as billion-dollar development companies. So, there were no pretty pictures to counter OSMUG's pretty pictures. So, John Martin started drawing them.

And then, finally, he started doing the leg-work to flesh out an alternative plan.

Unfortunately, the die was long before cast over dinner in a Monaco restaurant, and as former Mayor and Court Jester, Larry O'Brien, was of the same crowd as the OSMUG 3 or 4 or 5 (or however many it is now) it's not surprising that they had his ear, in a way that Martin, never would.

Nonetheless, that didn't make the Lansdowne Conservancy a bad idea. It simply wasn't one that was going to fly with the previous and current mayors, nor a Council more concerned about jumping on the football bandwagon, than trying to develop a nuanced vision for one of the central city's last large open areas, that would respect the neighbourhood in which it was located, rather than spitting epithets like "NIMBY" and "Glebe elitist" at its existing residents.

Too bad.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So I've heard. It would be one thing to pay FOL's fees, since they were the more legit group, fighting for a fair process as opposed to a deadbeat looking for his moment in the sun and a quick buck.

[ThaLoveDocta]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Gee, I preferred to see John Martin as a Don Quixote figure. (Although we all remember how he ended up.)

I recall first encountering him at the Tom Brown Arena "consultation," where the City had deigned to permit him to set up outside of the room where the City/OSMUG dog and pony show was going on.

His, was a rhetorical response to the naked corporate power that was being exercised, and masterfully, by OSMUG in hypnotizing the City into signing on for this scheme.

Initially, I think he really did begin by first posing the question, "Is there no alternative to the corporate plan?" It was the question central to the critics' opposition to the scheme, and attacked the fundamental assertion that if you opposed OSMUG's plan, you were in favour of more years of delay and decay.

Over time, he elaborated that first question into another: "What might an alternative look like?" This was one of the central weaknesses of the critics' side; that they could not offer a clear vision of what they thought Lansdowne should be, apart from NOT the scheme OSMUG proposed. This was of course hard, because the volunteers of Friends of Lansdowne were diverse, and, well, voluntary, and so could not muster the same resources as billion-dollar development companies. So, there were no pretty pictures to counter OSMUG's pretty pictures. So, John Martin started drawing them.

And then, finally, he started doing the leg-work to flesh out an alternative plan.

Unfortunately, the die was long before cast over dinner in a Monaco restaurant, and as former Mayor and Court Jester, Larry O'Brien, was of the same crowd as the OSMUG 3 or 4 or 5 (or however many it is now) it's not surprising that they had his ear, in a way that Martin, never would.

Nonetheless, that didn't make the Lansdowne Conservancy a bad idea. It simply wasn't one that was going to fly with the previous and current mayors, nor a Council more concerned about jumping on the football bandwagon, than trying to develop a nuanced vision for one of the central city's last large open areas, that would respect the neighbourhood in which it was located, rather than spitting epithets like "NIMBY" and "Glebe elitist" at its existing residents.

Too bad.

You're really hung up on this restaurant eh?
Is it yours? Are you promoting their tapas?

He had 25 yrs to plan something and bring it to the table himself. He didn't.
We're tired of this.
It's my neighbourhood too, and your small group are embarrassing our community with this continued rhetoric.
Please stop.

[J.OT13]

I agree that the process was seriously flawed and I question whether the deal is really financially beneficial to the City. Even with these doubts, I am glad to see the park being redeveloped into an new Market like entertainment district to compliment renovated/built sports complexes. Oh, and actually having a Park at Lansdowne Park will also be awesome and less confusing to tourists.

That being said, Martin lost a lot of credibility over this whole Lansdowne thing. Some was lost to the way he self promoted his own plan, but most of that credibility was lost when we found out he didn't pay alimony to his ex-wife. Family should come before some stupid fight against the City. Grow some balls, be a man and get out of our sight.


In other news, the Mayor is confident a theatre will still open at Lansdowne;

Lansdowne theatre coming: Watson

By Jon Willing ,Ottawa Sun
First posted: Monday, July 15, 2013 07:23 PM EDT | Updated: Monday, July 15, 2013 09:37 PM EDT


A theatre will operate at Lansdowne Park. Mayor Jim Watson is sure of it.

“I don’t know what theatre brand is actually going to go in there at the end of the day but I’m confident in discussions I have had with city staff there would be a theatre there,” Watson said Monday.

Empire Theatres has been confirmed as the operator for the new state-of-the-art theatre being built at Lansdowne but last month it announced it was selling 46 of its theatres. The Lansdowne site wasn’t included in the selloff, but Empire hasn’t indicated if it’s still interested in a long-term investment there.

The Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group is talking with the movie company.

Watson is certain a new theatre is needed in central Ottawa.

He noted the Rideau Centre cinema is closing and the only one remaining is at the World Exchange Plaza.

Capital Coun. David Chernushenko said he was worried about the implications for Lansdowne when he heard Empire was selling its theatres.

“I can’t repeat what went through my head the actual words when I heard the company that we were working with and designing to their specifications was no longer was going to own and develop this theatre,” Chernushenko said.

— Jon Willing

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/07/15/lansdowne-theatre-coming-watson

What I don't understand is why did Sobeys let Empire buy the AMC in Kanata, make the Lansdowne deal and tell us Rideau was closing to insure the success (or whatever) of the Lansdowne site? You don't just wake up one mourning and decide to go out of the theatre business. You need to have discussions for roughly a year prior I would think.

[JFFournier]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Over time, he elaborated that first question into another: "What might an alternative look like?" This was one of the central weaknesses of the critics' side; that they could not offer a clear vision of what they thought Lansdowne should be, apart from NOT the scheme OSMUG proposed.

Which is exactly why if you opposed the LPP, you were believed to be in favour of more years of delay and decay.

Do you suppose that perception is caused by almost four decades of opposing any and all development at that location?

Actually, that might be only partially true. We should probably also take into account the complete silence of the likes of John Martin when there isn't a proposal to oppose.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by JFFournier

Which is exactly why if you opposed the LPP, you were believed to be in favour of more years of delay and decay.

Do you suppose that perception is caused by almost four decades of opposing any and all development at that location?

Actually, that might be only partially true. We should probably also take into account the complete silence of the likes of John Martin when there isn't a proposal to oppose.

You need money to propose such a project. The guy has none apparently, so when he saw an opportunity to make a quick buck by suing the city, he jumped at it.

[JFFournier]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

...and as former Mayor and Court Jester, Larry O'Brien, was of the same crowd as the OSMUG 3 or 4 or 5 (or however many it is now) it's not surprising that they had his ear, in a way that Martin, never would.

Yeah, faced with developing a 40 acre area downtown, imagine the mayor giving more credibility to OSEG than John Martin. Did O'Brien not realise that Martin is not only a computer repairman but ALSO rents electric bikes? What the hell was O'Brien thinking?

[Shalaby]

Originally Posted by ThaLoveDocta

You're really hung up on this restaurant eh?
Is it yours? Are you promoting their tapas?

He had 25 yrs to plan something and bring it to the table himself. He didn't.
We're tired of this.
It's my neighbourhood too, and your small group are embarrassing our community with this continued rhetoric.
Please stop.

Well put.

Alecz's comparison of Martin to Don Quixote- a delusional man with antiquated ideas of knighthood- is also pretty hilarious. Although, I'm not sure it makes the point he was trying to get across.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

In other news, the Mayor is confident a theatre will still open at Lansdowne;

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/07/15/lansdowne-theatre-coming-watson

What I don't understand is why did Sobeys let Empire buy the AMC in Kanata, make the Lansdowne deal and tell us Rideau was closing to insure the success (or whatever) of the Lansdowne site? You don't just wake up one mourning and decide to go out of the theatre business. You need to have discussions for roughly a year prior I would think.

Why would they sell off right after making large investments? That part certainly got my spidey sense tingling.

[matty14]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Gee, I preferred to see John Martin as a Don Quixote figure. (Although we all remember how he ended up.)

I recall first encountering him at the Tom Brown Arena "consultation," where the City had deigned to permit him to set up outside of the room where the City/OSMUG dog and pony show was going on.

His, was a rhetorical response to the naked corporate power that was being exercised, and masterfully, by OSMUG in hypnotizing the City into signing on for this scheme.

Initially, I think he really did begin by first posing the question, "Is there no alternative to the corporate plan?" It was the question central to the critics' opposition to the scheme, and attacked the fundamental assertion that if you opposed OSMUG's plan, you were in favour of more years of delay and decay.

Over time, he elaborated that first question into another: "What might an alternative look like?" This was one of the central weaknesses of the critics' side; that they could not offer a clear vision of what they thought Lansdowne should be, apart from NOT the scheme OSMUG proposed. This was of course hard, because the volunteers of Friends of Lansdowne were diverse, and, well, voluntary, and so could not muster the same resources as billion-dollar development companies. So, there were no pretty pictures to counter OSMUG's pretty pictures. So, John Martin started drawing them.

And then, finally, he started doing the leg-work to flesh out an alternative plan.

Unfortunately, the die was long before cast over dinner in a Monaco restaurant, and as former Mayor and Court Jester, Larry O'Brien, was of the same crowd as the OSMUG 3 or 4 or 5 (or however many it is now) it's not surprising that they had his ear, in a way that Martin, never would.

Nonetheless, that didn't make the Lansdowne Conservancy a bad idea. It simply wasn't one that was going to fly with the previous and current mayors, nor a Council more concerned about jumping on the football bandwagon, than trying to develop a nuanced vision for one of the central city's last large open areas, that would respect the neighbourhood in which it was located, rather than spitting epithets like "NIMBY" and "Glebe elitist" at its existing residents.

Too bad.

My eyes are blinded by the butthurt.

[kevinbottawa]

Tweeted by City of Ottawa

[lrt's friend]

Because Lansdowne Park was more than just simple green space and included a major commercial facility, a successful redevelopment required major corporate support. The fact that John Martin's alternative had no corporate backing meant that it lacked credibility. No matter how much some thought differently, it had no hope of ever getting off the ground. It is for this reason that most of us could not take it seriously and the politicians concurred.

[JackBauer24]

I second that.
This debate is dead, Lansdowne is moving forward despite the minorities displeasure.
This has gone beyond beating a dead horse, we're beating a deteriorated carcass now.

Originally Posted by Shalaby

Well put.

Alecz's comparison of Martin to Don Quixote- a delusional man with antiquated ideas of knighthood- is also pretty hilarious. Although, I'm not sure it makes the point he was trying to get across.

[alecz_dad]

Interesting that the "no flog rule" doesn't sem to apply to remarks about John Martin.

I would have thought that OSMUG's muckraking on his personal affairs was extremely old news. Yet it has been dredged up again.

Pot. Meet kettle; black.

Originally Posted by JackBauer24

I second that.
This debate is dead, Lansdowne is moving forward despite the minorities displeasure.
This has gone beyond beating a dead horse, we're beating a deteriorated carcass now.

[alecz_dad]

Matty,

Please explain your meaning of "butthurt" in this context.

If anything, it is my neighbours and I whose rectums are still reddened by the royal Rogering OSMUG and the City gave us.

Originally Posted by matty14

My eyes are blinded by the butthurt.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Matty,

Please explain your meaning of "butthurt" in this context.

If anything, it is my neighbours and I whose rectums are still reddened by the royal Rogering OSMUG and the City gave us.

I think it's pretty clear; your a pain in the ass!

Was the Lansdowne deal the best possible, probably not. Was Martin's proposal any better, no.

Today, the site is finally being developed and I for one, and I'm sure the majority of the people on this site, are satisfied with this development in terms of the physical infrastructure we will end up with. I think we can all agree that the deal could have been better for the City and, for me at least, I now see that a full competition for the site (proposal and operator) might have been a better move.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the issue should be put to bed for the final time. Nothing else can be done. That's it!

If you and "John Martin" believe so damn much in fighting sole sourced proposals, I recommend you start a new project in fighting the sole sourcing of the casino at the RCR site. Do like the Friend's of Lansdowne and turn the page.

[alecz_dad]

The only corporate support in OSMUG's scheme was helping themselves to prime central public land, for a dollar a year.

Taxpayers are just as much on the hook for the upfront construction costs and eebt financing for the stadium, parking and urban park, as they would have been on Martin's scaled down plan. By committing to OSMUG's Cadillac scheme, the City has higher opportunity costs throughout the rest of its operations, due to commitments at Lansdowne.

Whereas OSMUG's equity share seems to keep growing, and the taxes from Lansdowne retail and residential will be dedicated exclusively to servicing Lansdowne. A neat trick. Wish I could allocate all my property taxes to maintaining my street exclusively.

What he lacked, was political connections. Howard Darwin coaxed the City into building a baseball stadium for his Lynx triple-A franchise. A stadium that for years now has been a giant white elephant for the City. Last year the City renamed Centennial Arena after Darwin. Maybe they should have named the baseball stadium after him? Though, given how it has gone, I imagine his family would have declined.

If wealthy men are so keen on playing with their sports teams, why don't they pay to build their own stadiums? Oh right. You don't get wealthy spending a lot of your own money on your hobbies, if you can cajole politicians into paying for it.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Because Lansdowne Park was more than just simple green space and included a major commercial facility, a successful redevelopment required major corporate support. The fact that John Martin's alternative had no corporate backing meant that it lacked credibility. No matter how much some thought differently, it had no hope of ever getting off the ground. It is for this reason that most of us could not take it seriously and the politicians concurred.

[alecz_dad]

J.OT13

Indeed, I guess I am.

Yet, it seems you concede Martin's proposal was as good as OSMUG's. And probably by having pains in the ass like Martin, FoL, Clive Doucet, Glebe BIA, Holmwood Group, etc. OSMUG was forced to step up its game, and improve its plan.

Indeed, were it not for critics of the scheme speaking up at the earliest public "consultation" presentations, there would have been no occasion in which the public could have questioned City and OSMUG reps in a public forum.

So, thanks loud-mouthed Glebe crank with a megaphone for helping to ensure some opportunity for critics and supporters to publicly voice their views in an un-stage-managed forum!

Nonetheless, as pointless as it may seem to the denizens of thus forum for me to continue disinterring this particular equine corpse, it's little more pointless than the endless discussions about the name of the doomed football team, whether the field is big enough for soccer, or what stage the construction is at; because it all equals not one jot in the grand scheme of things, as I can assure you that although Messrs. Greenberg, Shenkman, Ruddy, et.al. may get pleasure from your spirited defense of their scheme, I'm quite sure they don't care.

So, let us all continue to wank off - in our own particular ways - for our own pleasure and that of others.

I certainly do think that the way that the Mayor has stickhandled the casino issue, indicates once again his utter disdain for any meaningful public consultation on anything of substance, as well as his disrespect for his Coucil bobbleheads, as he continues his habit of walking-on major issues onto Council and committee agendas, with little or no prior warning.

However, having lost several strips over Lansdowne, it's pretty clear there's little point in speaking truth to power in this city, so, I'll let some other poor unfortunates take up the cudgel of transparency, over the casinos.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think it's pretty clear; your a pain in the ass!

Was the Lansdowne deal the best possible, probably not. Was Martin's proposal any better, no.

Today, the site is finally being developed and I for one, and I'm sure the majority of the people on this site, are satisfied with this development in terms of the physical infrastructure we will end up with. I think we can all agree that the deal could have been better for the City and, for me at least, I now see that a full competition for the site (proposal and operator) might have been a better move.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the issue should be put to bed for the final time. Nothing else can be done. That's it!

If you and "John Martin" believe so damn much in fighting sole sourced proposals, I recommend you start a new project in fighting the sole sourcing of the casino at the RCR site. Do like the Friend's of Lansdowne and turn the page.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

The only corporate support in OSMUG's scheme was helping themselves to prime central public land, for a dollar a year.

Taxpayers are just as much on the hook for the upfront construction costs and eebt financing for the stadium, parking and urban park, as they would have been on Martin's scaled down plan. By committing to OSMUG's Cadillac scheme, the City has higher opportunity costs throughout the rest of its operations, due to commitments at Lansdowne.

Whereas OSMUG's equity share seems to keep growing, and the taxes from Lansdowne retail and residential will be dedicated exclusively to servicing Lansdowne. A neat trick. Wish I could allocate all my property taxes to maintaining my street exclusively.

What he lacked, was political connections. Howard Darwin coaxed the City into building a baseball stadium for his Lynx triple-A franchise. A stadium that for years now has been a giant white elephant for the City. Last year the City renamed Centennial Arena after Darwin. Maybe they should have named the baseball stadium after him? Though, given how it has gone, I imagine his family would have declined.

If wealthy men are so keen on playing with their sports teams, why don't they pay to build their own stadiums? Oh right. You don't get wealthy spending a lot of your own money on your hobbies, if you can cajole politicians into paying for it.

I actually kind of agree with you on that one. The City didn't get enough out of the Lansdowne deal.

Same with stadiums; if someone wants a sports franchise, they should pay for it themselves (like Firestone paid for the Palladium, even paid for the highway ramps) or at least make a major contribution if they expect to use it for free.

If the facility already exists, then the owners of the franchise should pay market rate (like I assume the 67s paid for the Civic Centre the last 45 years and again I assume Firestone paid to use the Civic Centre the first few years of the Sens and past CFL teams paid to use Frank Clair).

But again, deals done, get over it.

Update: to respond to your last post that came up while I was writing this, I agree that the whole scheme was likely improved somewhat by the constant protest of the Glebite people. The problem that they don't seem to know when it's time to throw in the towel.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

The only corporate support in OSMUG's scheme was helping themselves to prime central public land, for a dollar a year.

Taxpayers are just as much on the hook for the upfront construction costs and eebt financing for the stadium, parking and urban park, as they would have been on Martin's scaled down plan. By committing to OSMUG's Cadillac scheme, the City has higher opportunity costs throughout the rest of its operations, due to commitments at Lansdowne.
...
What he lacked, was political connections.

I agree that Mr. Martin has taken enough beating, but you keep bringing him up.

This is nonsense. What Mr. Martin lacked was money, as well as experience in any field relevant to what he was proposing. And if you are at all familiar with competitive processes, you'd know that relevant experience is kind of important at evaluation time.

Not surprisingly, Mr. Martin's plan (or rather the last plan he pitched, which was quite different from versions 1 through 3) was nowhere near as good as the current plan. Whatever your vendetta against OSEG, you can't debate that they own the football, hockey and soccer teams that are critical to the viability of the stadium and arena. Mr. Martin did not. Nor can you debate that the winning urban park is much better than his pitch for random fields surrounded by a ring of surface parking.

What might be debatable is whether the limited local organic retail that he proposed to stick in the then existing buildings would have any chance of being financially viable. But I saw no evidence that even remotely suggested that was the case.

I get that you don't like OSEG, but touting Mr. Martin as a credible alternative ruins your own credibility. And as many have told you - it's over. Even Mr. Martin knows that. He disappeared. Let it go.