LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 4.0

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by edluva

i wish LA developers would stop desiging plazas and buildings with the chief aim of creating a "center" out of a single or few developments, and instead simply focus on desiging good buildings such that centrality will occur over time, organically, and have a vibrant neighborhood arise from the effect of having many well designed buildings collectively define that neighborhood.

all of this self-concious aping to be the times square of the west coast is going to make for a less respectable urbanism than we desire. we wonder why LA fails at thoughtful architecture where so many other global cities succeed - it's because we design theme-parks first, and buildings second.

definitely agree with you here. Destinations are built instead of building to integrate with the surroundings.

[brudy]

Originally Posted by BOYCOTT 90210

I think Tierra Mia on Spring has some great coffee!

They do indeed! But their space doesn't make me want to sit there and hang out at all.

[StethJeff]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

I think there was writing on the wall long before Starbucks set up shop.

Maybe some, but not much. It was the Starbucks that absolutely sunk them.

[StethJeff]

Originally Posted by brudy

The shop was profitable although the starbucks did eat into business. The owners are more bar people than coffee people so opted to switch it to a bar. They own King Eddys, 6th St Tavern, among others.

The loss though is huge. There really isn't another coffee shop that has any kind of atmosphere - a nice place to have some coffee and read for a bit. Only Demitasse at this point is worth sitting in and even that place feels overly clean and sterile. Not that others don't have great coffee (the new B&G in the GCM and Barista Society on bunker hill both have killer coffee but not good seating). There's nothing like the old Lost Souls cafe or CoffeeBar left. When you want to get out of your apartment, but not get in the car, the options are very limited.

You're speaking my language. I agree with you completely. Demitasse - one of my other favorite places in DTLA - is prob the only other coffee place that I actually want to hang out at. The problem is that Jtown is too much of a psychological hurdle when it comes to walking there for me.

I'd kill for an awesome cafe like Demitasse or CoffeeBar on Bunker Hill, near the Music Center, etc.

[DistrictDirt]

Originally Posted by edluva

i wish LA developers would stop desiging plazas and buildings with the chief aim of creating a "center" out of a single or few developments, and instead simply focus on desiging good buildings such that centrality will occur over time, organically, and have a vibrant neighborhood arise from the effect of having many well designed buildings collectively define that neighborhood.

all of this self-concious aping to be the times square of the west coast is going to make for a less respectable urbanism than we desire. we wonder why LA fails at thoughtful architecture where so many other global cities succeed - it's because we design theme-parks first, and buildings second.

I agree with you 100%. No project is an island...it would be great if developers could stop building them that way. Just build them so they connect well with the surrounding urban fabric and everything else will fall into place.

[brudy]

Originally Posted by StethJeff

You're speaking my language. I agree with you completely. Demitasse - one of my other favorite places in DTLA - is prob the only other coffee place that I actually want to hang out at. The problem is that Jtown is too much of a psychological hurdle when it comes to walking there for me.

I'd kill for an awesome cafe like Demitasse or CoffeeBar on Bunker Hill, near the Music Center, etc.

Yeah - that area by the Music Center is crazily underserved. The red cat kind of has a vibe, but it's a little quiet and the coffee is only adequate.

That said, Barista Society is going to try to make some changes to their seating area, and add outdoor seating as well. The new owners of the US Bank tower are more amenable to that apparently. Despite the current corporate decor their coffee making is probably the best in downtown, if not one of the tops in the city. They're also doing a variety of smaller roasters beyond Stumptown and Intelligentsia, which I find really refreshing.

[StethJeff]

Originally Posted by brudy

Yeah - that area by the Music Center is crazily underserved. The red cat kind of has a vibe, but it's a little quiet and the coffee is only adequate.

That said, Barista Society is going to try to make some changes to their seating area, and add outdoor seating as well. The new owners of the US Bank tower are more amenable to that apparently. Despite the current corporate decor their coffee making is probably the best in downtown, if not one of the tops in the city. They're also doing a variety of smaller roasters beyond Stumptown and Intelligentsia, which I find really refreshing.

I feel like an idiot.

I thought there wasn't anything on BH or near the MC and you literally named one in both places that I'd never even heard of. Amazing! I immediately googled both Redcat Lounge and Barista Society and they look/sound terrific. I've been up the Library Tower stairs a million times and I guess I just never noticed Barista. Thanks for helping me figure out what I'm doing this weekend! Stoked to check 'em out.

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by edluva

i wish LA developers would stop desiging plazas and buildings with the chief aim of creating a "center" out of a single or few developments, and instead simply focus on desiging good buildings such that centrality will occur over time, organically, and have a vibrant neighborhood arise from the effect of having many well designed buildings collectively define that neighborhood.

all of this self-concious aping to be the times square of the west coast is going to make for a less respectable urbanism than we desire. we wonder why LA fails at thoughtful architecture where so many other global cities succeed - it's because we design theme-parks first, and buildings second.

Yup. Do we really need two malls on 7th Street both vying with street-facing retail for tenants? And doesn't L.A. Central also have a mall component? And how about that developer who is going to build that huge multi-billion dollar on the fashion complex, or the new Alameda Square project that will also have retail and offices in an area that is all industrial. Downtown can only support so much.

[GuardianChief]

Originally Posted by edluva

i wish LA developers would stop desiging plazas and buildings with the chief aim of creating a "center" out of a single or few developments, and instead simply focus on desiging good buildings such that centrality will occur over time, organically, and have a vibrant neighborhood arise from the effect of having many well designed buildings collectively define that neighborhood.

all of this self-concious aping to be the times square of the west coast is going to make for a less respectable urbanism than we desire. we wonder why LA fails at thoughtful architecture where so many other global cities succeed - it's because we design theme-parks first, and buildings second.

I think you're wrong! I've lived both in Europe (Germany, Serbia) and U.S. and this is precisely what it takes for Los Angeles to become more urban city, not kind of more subrub - something that would define the center of the city. Something as New York's Times Square for example.

Generally, all U.S. cities lag behind the rest of the world, especially L.A. it looks like some postwar city in the middle of nowhere! I believe the Western version of the Times Square complex would be ideal change for the city of this caliber. Unprecedented change. Of course with taller skyscrapers than those having right now, a lot (but far more!) modern infrastructure, with deep repair of the roads, cause let's face it, they really suck, even third world countries such as Bosnia, Macedonia, and so on, are possessing better roads than L.A. does (even than whole U.S.), not to mention infrastructure for electric cables which should be underground by now, not like a spider web towing from one pole to another and then conecting (towing again) with homes through the air. This is no longer permissible for a country in the 21st century.

Another important think, U.S. needs to change the way people think within the country. Take a look for instance for average house in Germany and than to average house in the United States. The difference is stunning. While they spend far less money than Americans on materials, they still get a much higher quality and much more materials indeed (there's no house without styrodur, thermal insulation...). They use only PVC windows in their homes/condos, it's virtually impossible to find a different kind of windows, even in the poorest households, whereas in America is still in use the same ones that were used 50 years ago. And people in the U.S. just don't seek for any change for that matter. They've been satisfied with something below the world's average. And therein lies the germ of all urban problems in U.S. It's hidden in American mentality.

I understand you, but sometimes you have to look outside of the American reasoning.

[brudy]

Originally Posted by StethJeff

I feel like an idiot.

I thought there wasn't anything on BH or near the MC and you literally named one in both places that I'd never even heard of. Amazing! I immediately googled both Redcat Lounge and Barista Society and they look/sound terrific. I've been up the Library Tower stairs a million times and I guess I just never noticed Barista. Thanks for helping me figure out what I'm doing this weekend! Stoked to check 'em out.

Don't be too hard on yourself! Barista Society has been open maybe a little over a month. It really is amazing. And the cafe inside the Redcat is off the radar for sure. I'm not sure about their hours either.

If you want to go down the hill, B&G on the western edge of Grand Central Market is another amazing 3d wave-type coffee place that just opened up. They also do a great job, but I prefer Barista Society.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by GuardianChief

Generally, all U.S. cities lag behind the rest of the world, especially L.A. it looks like some postwar city in the middle of nowhere!

guardianchief, several days ago I posted to the thread on LAX in the transportation thread at ssp. Many ppl there & elsewhere complain about the city's airport, saying it's very bad & outdated. the reaction of some forumers & others towards LAX is quite negative.

Although I don't think LAX is nearly as poor as some ppl make it out to be....& certain airports elsewhere aren't necessarily as wonderful as some ppl make them out to be....it does get me to thinking about other aspects of LA, inc dt. If ppl think LAX is & , doesn't the same thing apply to various other older parts of the city overall? If so.....




I guess that's why I find it amusing when ppl become so unhappy that a new proj in dt isn't going to be taller, or its design won't win a Pritzker, or that there's too much parking, or not enough retail on the 1st floor. In a way we should be so lucky if such things really were the biggest sticking points....or sore points....for the average person living in or visiting LA.

this is an old bldg north of dtla that was converted to apts last yr. I used a little of my primitive paint software to figure out what such areas should look like if LA were more on the ball, & what such areas unfortunately do look like right now....





maps.google.com


the edited image is quite blurry & certainly not of photoshop quality, but it does give the general idea of one reason why ppl may hesitate when they're rating LA. So if they've got issues with LAX, then oh oh, what does that mean about how they'll view....& want to treat.....other aspects of the city?

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by StethJeff

You're speaking my language. I agree with you completely. Demitasse - one of my other favorite places in DTLA - is prob the only other coffee place that I actually want to hang out at. The problem is that Jtown is too much of a psychological hurdle when it comes to walking there for me.

I'd kill for an awesome cafe like Demitasse or CoffeeBar on Bunker Hill, near the Music Center, etc.

There is Novel Cafe in the Arts District. I quite like them. They have a great breakfast menu and a nice vibe sort of on the level of Lost Souls/Harlem Place. Bit of a hike but it's worth checking out if you are looking for a nice coffee place.

[Wilcal]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

Yup. Do we really need two malls on 7th Street both vying with street-facing retail for tenants? And doesn't L.A. Central also have a mall component? And how about that developer who is going to build that huge multi-billion dollar on the fashion complex, or the new Alameda Square project that will also have retail and offices in an area that is all industrial. Downtown can only support so much.

This is an interesting point that you are making. The more retail which develops in "The Bloc," Figueroa and 7th, The Metropolis, Ave. of Angels, and LA Central, the less there is to revitalize Broadway. I'm wondering if the city planners have a plan in mind. Is the larger development mentioned targeted for the downtown tourist/visitor while the retail of Broadway is meant to serve strictly downtown and local citizens? Either way, downtown will need a lot more people living there (especially with high disposable incomes) and a lot more tourists/visitors.

[DistrictDirt]

Originally Posted by Wilcal

This is an interesting point that you are making. The more retail which develops in "The Bloc," Figueroa and 7th, The Metropolis, Ave. of Angels, and LA Central, the less there is to revitalize Broadway. I'm wondering if the city planners have a plan in mind. Is the larger development mentioned targeted for the downtown tourist/visitor while the retail of Broadway is meant to serve strictly downtown and local citizens? Either way, downtown will need a lot more people living there (especially with high disposable incomes) and a lot more tourists/visitors.

Besides the saturation issue, there's the design issue. Walking through a central business district should not feel like you're moving from one isolated shopping mall to the next, with nothing of interest in between. It should feel like one continuous "fabric" of restaurants, shops, apartments, pedestrians, traffic, etc.

The occasional shopping center is fine, but it should be built in such a way that it isn't detrimental to the surrounding fabric (i.e. wrapped in retail or at least window displays, without an overabundance of blank wall, podium, parking, or giant garage doors.) Developers/architects need to think about how pedestrians will feel arriving at their shopping center on foot, and not about just how convenient it will be for people arriving in their cars. Really basic urban design stuff really, but it seems like its usually ignored in LA.

[brudy]

Originally Posted by DistrictDirt

Besides the saturation issue, there's the design issue. Walking through a central business district should not feel like you're moving from one isolated shopping mall to the next, with nothing of interest in between. It should feel like one continuous "fabric" of restaurants, shops, apartments, pedestrians, traffic, etc.

This is my gripe about Old Town/Pasadena and Gaslamp/San Diego. They feel fabricated and engineered. They don't feel like they developed organically. That said, I don't think Figat7th and The Bloc are going to feel the same way. There's simply too much else going on over there. It's a mix now of office, retail and residential. And the designs are so different it's not going to feel like a single outdoor mall.

I think what's going to happen is that high-end chain stuff will end up in south park and that historic core will be a mix of indie shops and edgier brand store (Acne for example), at least in the short to medium term. As it builds out, perhaps higher end stuff will migrate east. Can anyone think of an example established higher end chain that took that much of a location risk?

I really like the Bringing Back Broadway initiative, but I think the Core as a whole needs a plan like this. While the core as a whole will benefit from the Broadway plan, it seems too focused on just one street (albeit one that has the farthest to go and with perhaps the most potential).

[DistrictDirt]

Originally Posted by brudy

I really like the Bringing Back Broadway initiative, but I think the Core as a whole needs a plan like this. While the core as a whole will benefit from the Broadway plan, it seems too focused on just one street (albeit one that has the farthest to go and with perhaps the most potential).

Speaking of, there was an article in the Atlantic Cities last Friday about the Broadway road diet I posted about a few weeks back. Lots of positive remarks about LA in the comments, which was nice to see for a change.

That's Right, Los Angeles Is Giving Up Car Lanes for Pedestrians
Eric Jaffe
July 5, 2013
The Atlantic Cities

Los Angeles has a great deal of walkability despite its car-centric reputation, but much of it remains hidden to the public. In the city's historic Broadway corridor, at least, that secret is about to come out. The city council recently voted to fund an initial redevelopment of Broadway into a legitimate pedestrian plaza — reducing six lanes of road down to three in the process.

The plan to "bring back" Broadway has been going on for about five years, but it really started to take shape in late 2009 with the public release of a street redesign. The first phase of this "Broadway Streetscape Master Plan" [PDF] is a makeshift and very cost-effective ($1.8 million) conversion modeled on the pedestrian parcels implemented in New York City. The second phase, yet to be funded, is where the heavy transformations would occur:


Image courtesy of the City Planning Commission [PDF].

As that image shows, the proposed changes will alter Broadway to its core. Instead of five travel lanes plus a "ghost" sixth lane for buses, the street will devote just three lanes to traffic and extend sidewalks and curbs for walking. Transit will be enhanced, too, with improvements to bus service and groundwork for a streetcar line the city hopes to bring to the corridor.

All told, Broadway's reconfiguration will increase pedestrian share of the road from 38 percent, at present, up to 47 percent — just about going halfsies with cars.

Look at those curb extensions! The article mentions that the pedestrian share of the road will be increasing from 38 to 47 percent, but I just wanted to point out that at stretches of the Broadway where there are extensions, the pedestrian share of the roadway is a full 60 percent! That's a massive difference, and will surely increase safety, slow down cars, and make pedestrians want to cross at the crosswalks instead of jaywalking wherever.

[RuFFy]

Those plans for Brining Back Broadway look promising. The other day I read that Park 5th may be for sale and I'd LOVE to see a Brining Back Pershing Square initiative take off.

[pwright1]

A few evenings ago I took a walk down 7th from Fig to Broadway and it was great seeing all the people strolling around but once I got to Olive the activity completely stopped. In fact the two blocks on 7th between Olive and Broadway there wasn't even 1 business open. Grant you most are those noname jewelery stores which to me brings nothing to the revitalization of dt. Those two blocks are a key to at least one connection to bringing Broadway and 7th together. It was about 6:45. There were certainly people walking along those 2 blocks but on there way to other lively blocks past to empty blocks of nothing. What do you think is the future of all of those jewelry stores along 7th, and even on Hill between 6th and 7th which if you think about it is a beautiful block but very empty after 6pm.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by pwright1

A few evenings ago I took a walk down 7th from Fig to Broadway and it was great seeing all the people strolling around but once I got to Olive the activity completely stopped. In fact the two blocks on 7th between Olive and Broadway there wasn't even 1 business open. Grant you most are those noname jewelery stores which to me brings nothing to the revitalization of dt. Those two blocks are a key to at least one connection to bringing Broadway and 7th together. It was about 6:45. There were certainly people walking along those 2 blocks but on there way to other lively blocks past to empty blocks of nothing. What do you think is the future of all of those jewelry stores along 7th, and even on Hill between 6th and 7th which if you think about it is a beautiful block but very empty after 6pm.

Ive been contemplating this since i moved to DT 3 years ago and i honestly think that in the next 5 - 10 years, we will see Olive / Hill / Broadway become our retail core. Broadway will have the mid range market with Hill being the higher end and Olive being the spill over.

[brudy]

Originally Posted by pwright1

A few evenings ago I took a walk down 7th from Fig to Broadway and it was great seeing all the people strolling around but once I got to Olive the activity completely stopped. In fact the two blocks on 7th between Olive and Broadway there wasn't even 1 business open. Grant you most are those noname jewelery stores which to me brings nothing to the revitalization of dt. Those two blocks are a key to at least one connection to bringing Broadway and 7th together. It was about 6:45. There were certainly people walking along those 2 blocks but on there way to other lively blocks past to empty blocks of nothing. What do you think is the future of all of those jewelry stores along 7th, and even on Hill between 6th and 7th which if you think about it is a beautiful block but very empty after 6pm.

The jewelry district creates a black hole in the neighborhood after 5pm. I have no idea how all those places even stay in business...