Economy Thread

[Pimpmasterdac]

Originally Posted by Simpseatles

I resent that! I'm a volunteer for Orchestra London and Joe Swan seems like a generally respectable individual, unlike a certain other Joe at city hall. Maybe Orchestra London wouldn't be such a "money pit" if people stopped complaining about it and actually went to a concert or two. So what if he thinks the Casino should be downtown? Is he not allowed to have an opinion? I think it would be great to have it use up an empty lot downtown, rather than allow the Western Fair to tear down some more buildings for their ever-expanding sea of parking.

Sorry if I offended you Simpseatles, the impression I get that Swan's has a personal agenda that's counter to London's best interests. It's understandable on him promoting organizations he represents, any other councillor would do so as well. What I begrudge his claims that the orchestra is well run, yet it continues to ask for annual subsidies, which has got the organization out of it's deficit, and now wants ~$10 million from the City for a new hall. Any supporter of the orchestra would support it the status quo and more city assistance, however as a taxpayer it should be self-sufficient or minimal subsidies/bailouts..

Swan's entitled to his opinion, never said he wasn't. IMO there's a conflict of interest, Swan wants a new orchestra hall and now is a proponent of a downtown casino I'd guess to piggyback off the Casino to accomplish this goal, since best bet financially is City would back enlarged the Grand Theatre over a new orchestra hall.

Originally Posted by haljackey

If it goes downtown, I'm sure there will be a lot more of the Richmond/Dundas demographic there. I can also see parking as a problem but if you can validate it there shouldn't be an issue.

It's just one more way to liven up the downtown, which I am for. I would assume the racetrack slots would close if a downtown casino opens up

My issue is that this casino could be another downtown White Elephant (aka Galleria) that won't be the economic boon that it's claimed to be, as well as killing off the Western Fair. The Western Fair is making lots of money currently, why mess with a good thing for some pie in the sky dream casino that could come years from now!? Western Fair has the land to expand, build new modern entertainment facilities, and already has the skill in this area.

Either way I hope council doesn't dither on this, get the go ahead ASAP before some other struggling cities near by gets their ducks in a row quicker and get's a casino instead!

[haljackey]

If the city plays their cards right, they might hit the jackpot.

If we do get a casino, I'll put the odds at 10:1 that it will go at the Western Fair instead of Downtown, 100:1 somewhere else.

Place your bets!

[MrSlippery519]

I would not be opposed to seeing the Western Fair expanded it certainly makes sense in the fact it would be much easier to double the amount of slots and add a bunch of tables.

That said if they do choose to expand the Fair for this please god make them build a decent hotel there. They are already missing the boat with the amount of hockey tournaments and everything on that site. A hotel right there would be a gold mine I think.

[MolsonExport]

Casinos at best are a tax on the mathematically-challenged, and at worse, a tax on the poor and an invitation for increased criminal activity, increased family breakdowns, and so forth. We might get the odd extra person from St. Thomas being foolish with their money, but otherwise it is a zero sum game as far as Casinos are concerned. They are practically everywhere. A bigger misuse of the social agenda than even publicly-funded sports stadiums (undoubtedly a money losing proposition [plenty of academic literature supports this], working/middle class funding billionaire owners and millionaire players).

Slots are excruciatingly stupid.

[manny_santos]

Casino Windsor basically saved Windsor's economy in the mid-90s, a time before 9/11 and before there were casinos in Michigan. That said, I'm not so sure it would be of much help to the London area.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Casino Windsor basically saved Windsor's economy in the mid-90s, a time before 9/11 and before there were casinos in Michigan. That said, I'm not so sure it would be of much help to the London area.

Another news segment on the issue has Windsor shaking in their boots about the Casino proposal in London. A lot of people from London who travel to Windsor will just stay here, meaning a boost for London coffers and a decrease for them.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=932909

[north 42]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Another news segment on the issue has Windsor shaking in their boots about the Casino proposal in London. A lot of people from London who travel to Windsor will just stay here, meaning a boost for London coffers and a decrease for them.

http://london.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=932909

I would think that the prospect of a casino in London would not have that great an effect on Caesars Windsor, as close to 80 percent of their business comes from the States, and Caesars has a very good product here with a loyal clientele. It would however have some effect on numbers here though, just not to the point of devastating.
If I was living in London, I would want the casino downtown, as quite a few casino patrons here actually do leave the gaming floors to stroll the riverfront parks and grab something to eat at one of the restaurants. Local businesses can reap some benefits from being close by.

[Blitz]

^ What a difference 20 years makes. Right before Windsor's casino opened there was so much concern about all the crime and social problems it would 'certainly' cause. None of that came true and we still have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country.

I don't think Caesars has to worry about London at all but I'm not convinced downtown London needs a casino.

[MrSlippery519]

I do not think having a casino in London would have much of an impact on Windsor. Granted I myself many years ago went to Windsor specifically to spend the night and go to the casino and I am sure there are others that have done the same but we are not talking a huge number.

I am not convinced it needs to go downtown either, however I think it would be the best spot for it.

[haljackey]

One thing I should note:

I'm in Edmonton right now and there are 5 casinos in this city, plus slots at the airport. This includes one downtown (about a block away from their awesome city hall) and yet it's a vibrant place. There is also one in the West Edmonton Mall. So London could build one downtown while still operating the racetrack slots.

The government of Alberta probably rakes in boatloads of money from gambling revenue... Probably one reason why they can have 0% PST.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

One thing I should note:

The government of Alberta probably rakes in boatloads of money from gambling revenue... Probably one reason why they can have 0% PST.

Exactly...does not matter where the money comes from. Let the people who want to spend it spend it.

[MolsonExport]

robbing peter to pay paul. great social framework. And what will the long-term local environmental legacy (to say nothing of the global impact) be of the tarsands? could there be some costs down the road? Does the tim hortons crowd care?


wikia

[manny_santos]

I'm sure many of us have wondered how big the gap is in the unemployment rate between London and St. Thomas. Statistics Canada's latest NHS release answers that question, at least for 2011.

London: 9.0%
St. Thomas: 10.7%
Strathroy-Caradoc: 6.2%
Central Elgin: 5.4%
Thames Centre: 4.7%
Middlesex Centre: 4.1% (!)
London CMA: 8.6%

Of interest is that the jobless rate in the City of London was higher than the CMA, but nothing compared to St. Thomas. The CMA rate was kept in check only by the surrounding rural municipalities. Based on the most recent London CMA unemployment rate of 9.8%, it is conceivable that London itself is over 10%, and St. Thomas around 11.5%.

Perhaps most noteworthy, the straight number of unemployed in the City of London was 17,690. If Joe Fontana actually did create 10,000 jobs during his tenure, London (CMA)'s unemployment rate would drop to 4.6%. Fontana's promise was never attainable to begin with.

[Simpseatles]

^Wow, all I can say is go Thames Centre (where I currently live) and Middlesex Centre!

Still, the difference between London's unemployment rate and St. Thomas's sure isn't that great. Guess we can't really blame them for bringing up London's CMA unemployment rate all that much.

[Highinthesky]

London's number is likely inflated slightly while the rural municipalities are lowered slightly by the unemployed coming into London in the hopes of finding a job. No one lives in the tiny rural hamlets once they become unemployed. Real Estate markets have collapsed in places like Dutton and West Elgin as they have been hit by lay offs in both Chatham and London. A search of sales in those two hamlets over the past 12 months shows 50% of the sales were of foreclosed houses.

[Simpseatles]

Looks like Rona's Commissioners Road east location will one of the 10 stores they are closing soon, eliminating 95 jobs.

http://www.lfpress.com/2013/06/27/rona-closing-eight-ontario-stores-including-one-in-london



Retail just does not seem to take root in this part of town. The stretch of Comissioners Road between Pond Mills and Summerside has to be one of the ugliest stretches of road in the city. All the boarded up stores and cracked parking lots are a real eyesore. With Zellers down the road recently closed, and now this it's only going to get worse. The newer plaza around Rona has never reached its full potential either, and many stores (Starbucks, Blockbuster) have already come and gone in its short existence.

I can see why this location might be unprofitable (it's located in a generally lower-income area, and the Summerside subdivision has been growing painstakingly slow compared to other developments in the city) but it still sucks.

[K85]

Guessing you don't live there? The area isn't exactly lower income. Lots of hospital people do live there. Though, summerside is slow as hell to grow. On the plus side, Shoppers there is expanding. And I've heard some things are gonna be done with the Zellers building.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by K85

Guessing you don't live there? The area isn't exactly lower income. Lots of hospital people do live there. Though, summerside is slow as hell to grow. On the plus side, Shoppers there is expanding. And I've heard some things are gonna be done with the Zellers building.

No I don't live there, but I drive through the area everyday. I didn't mean to say that the area was all low income, just that it generally isn't as desirable as say north London. Maybe I'm wrong in that assessment though.

And according to the CTV news report yesterday there are rumors that the former Zellers is to become a Target, but I highly doubt that. If that was the case wouldn't it have already happened? Something else could still definitely move in there though.

[MolsonExport]

If the new retail development at Wellington south of 401 goes through, Pond Mills and adjacent areas will hollow out even more. I can't believe some people still think we can sprawl our way out of economic difficulty.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

If the new retail development at Wellington south of 401 goes through, Pond Mills and adjacent areas will hollow out even more. I can't believe some people still think we can sprawl our way out of economic difficulty.

And unfortunately, the decision-makers will blame external factors such as Dalton McGuinty and global warming instead of themselves.