Port Mann/Highway 1 Improvements | Completed

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Then why according to ICBC are there more than 1 accident per day every day for 5 years? The statistics are roughly the same from 2009 on too? Maybe they all happen while you're at work? Or do you watch the interchange all day long every day?

That's compared to on average 1 accident every 3 days on every other interchange between West Vancouver and Chilliwack. That's a lot of interchanges btw, and with the exception of Brunette during that period of time, every other (#3 to #whatever) had more than 1000 less accidents. Unless you're calling ICBC a liar when it comes to accident statistics. Heck if you take the top 10 intersections in Vancouver (which had the worse accident rate by 50,000 accidents in Metro Vancouver) and look at the #1 accident point, Knight Street and Marine Drive, that intersection had 1635 accidents in that period, 500 less.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/crash/index.html

I lived by 76th and KGB for 20+ years, and it was seen statistically as one of the most dangerous intersections. When they first posted the sign I shrugged like you and because I lived there thought "pfft I live here, I don't see anything." but the truth is when I started to pay attention I could hear emergency vehicles go there at least once a day almost every day for a while and realized living near an intersection doesn't mean you're an expert on crash statistics and have a realistic viewpoint on things. Remember the saying, eye witness testimony is the most unreliable form of evidence available contrary to what the courts will tell you.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, that statistic covers quite a few different, pretty independent traffic movements. It's not just 2193 accidents involving people coming off Grandview or going onto Willingdon.

It also includes accidents on Willingdon caused by people turning left and running into people who forget to yield. It includes people coming off #1 to SB Willingdon and darting across all lanes to get to the left turn lane to Canada Way and getting Tboned (before they get to the statistically separate Canada Way intersection. It includes cars coming off the very short on ramp to Hwy 1 westbound. It includes people getting confused in the lane differences on the exit from #1 WB where 1 lane goes north, the other south and what one turns onto Grandview. It includes people in the HOV lane realizing at the last minute they want to exit at Grandview so they cut across 3 lanes of freeway.

Almost all of those problems are being mitigated by improvements to the area. Even the Grandview onramp, while not as amazing as they planned, is a huge improvement with the movement of the Willingdon offramp further down the freeway.

[jlenko]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Here's the "Pre-Design Reference Concept" from Grandview / Willingdon:

http://www.pmh1project.com/Project%20Des...1%203%20Grandview%20Hwy%20Willingdon.pdf

***********
The new configuration will be slightly better than the existing one.
Right now, the Grandview onramp lane ends and incoming traffic ends up on the Willingdon exit only lane - so they must change lanes twice.
The new configuration has the Grandview onramp lane becoming the Willingdon exit only lane - so there's only one lane change required with a "simpler" form of weaving. The "point of no return" for the Willingdon exit is also farther east with the new ramps.

Drat... I didn't realize they'd changed the plan. Would have made more sense to build a single big overpass coming off the middle of the freeway then (south of the old existing one) with both HOV and regular lanes... instead of two goofy looking ones, and re-using the old Grandview overpass.

What a waste.. that C/D will never get built anyway.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by jlenko

Drat... I didn't realize they'd changed the plan. Would have made more sense to build a single big overpass coming off the middle of the freeway then (south of the old existing one) with both HOV and regular lanes... instead of two goofy looking ones, and re-using the old Grandview overpass.

What a waste.. that C/D will never get built anyway.

HOV lanes down city streets usually run down the curb lanes, not center lanes (I assume that is because they are usually used by buses with curb stops and often only used during rush hour where the lane becomes a parking lane during non peak times...at least thats my guess). I assume there might be future plans to create curb side HOV lanes down Granville highway to 12th street or so? The room is there and it would be a good thing to do imo, I am sure there are some sort of plans.

It makes sense to have the HOV off/on ramps going from/to Grandview highways curb lanes to/from the highways center lanes.

[officedweller]

And a single big ramp wouldn't work as they wouldn't have the regular lanes merge into the freeway from the left (into the fast lanes) - that would be too dangerous.

[Canadian Mind]

Why dangerous? I don't see how it'd be much different than an express -> collector crossover.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by officedweller

And a single big ramp wouldn't work as they wouldn't have the regular lanes merge into the freeway from the left (into the fast lanes) - that would be too dangerous.

By that, are you implying - or stating, whatever- that the ramp design as
posted by you is superior to the several previous posts preferring, it seems, a large single ramp, somehow?
I'm not arguing, and have no problem with this, I'm just asking out of curiosity.
Thanks
(ps: in fact, this interests me, and I wouldn't mind digging deeper into it for a moment, maybe with comparative renders and such.) ...

[adrianroam95]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

By that, are you implying - or stating, whatever- that the ramp design as
posted by you is superior to the several previous posts preferring, it seems, a large single ramp, somehow?
I'm not arguing, and have no problem with this, I'm just asking out of curiosity.
Thanks
(ps: in fact, this interests me, and I wouldn't mind digging deeper into it for a moment, maybe with comparative renders and such.) ...

A singular ramp would look something like:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

which, as officedweller pointed out, would be extremely unsafe.

(excuse my poor paint skills )

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

which, as officedweller pointed out, would be extremely unsafe.

I'm not sure I see what's unsafe about that. There are plenty of right-side exits with two lanes, why should a left-side exit be any different in that regard?

The real problems I see here are that it would make it pretty much impossible to extend the HOV lanes east of the Grandview exit, and of course the HOV lanes end up on the middle lanes of Grandview highway instead of the curb lanes as discussed earlier (I detest the terms "inside" and "outside" when used to describe lanes because they mean different things to different people).

(excuse my poor paint skills )

It's a great diagram that makes it very clear what you're talking about when you say "singular ramp".

[DKaz]

Left lane exits are terrible. You're forcing slower drivers to head into the left lane, although arguably that's already happening. lol.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm not sure I see what's unsafe about that. There are plenty of right-side exits with two lanes, why should a left-side exit be any different in that regard?

For exits and merges on the left - you have:

1) ALL incoming traffic trying to merge with freeway "fast lane" drivers at 120 kph - that's dangerous; and

2) as Adrianroam mentions, you have exitting traffic slowing to maybe 80 kph to exit, while other traffic in the "fast lane" is trying to go 120 kph and they would likely dodge around you and pass on the right (the same way any slow driver in the fast lane is handled).

********

Also noticed from Adrianroam's diagram - if both regular and HOV are to "flyover" together, that means that the HOV lanes on Grandview Highway itself would have to be in the middle lanes (which is unlikely).

[libtard]

Detroit is currently removing all their left lane exits on I-94 due to them being outdated and dangerous

Can't believe Vancouver is building a new one in this day and age

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by libtard

Detroit is currently removing all their left lane exits on I-94 due to them being outdated and dangerous

Can't believe Vancouver is building a new one in this day and age

They aren't. It's a HOV only flyover.

[Metro-One]

Exactly, all the left hand exits / on ramps are HOV and rapid bus only, just like all the new ramps built along the I-5 in Seattle.

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Exactly, all the left hand exits / on ramps are HOV and rapid bus only, just like all the new ramps built along the I-5 in Seattle.

This could still be interesting since HOV users (and violators) tend to treat the HOV lane as an ultra-fast lane lane. Minimum 120, or you get tail-gated. I'll be curious to see how this plays out when these ramps open up.

Is the eastbound HOV lane going to start upstream of the HOV ramp merge point, or is the merge point the start of the HOV lane? If its the later, then what I described above shouldn't be a problem...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by officedweller

...Adrianroam mentions, you have exitting traffic slowing to maybe 80 kph to exit, while other traffic in the "fast lane" is trying to go 120 kph and they would likely dodge around you and pass on the right (the same way any slow driver in the fast lane is handled).

First of all, in several decades of driving I can probably count on one hand the number of people I've seen slow down BEFORE the exit lane splits off. Secondly, the "fast" lane isn't the "speeding" lane. I'd be more sympathetic to your argument if you'd have pointed out the safety hazard of, say, a slow-moving truck using a left exit rather than suggesting that everyone in that lane is going 30km/h over the speed limit. My experience is that the people who go 120km/h try to do it no matter what lane they're in, including the "slow" lanes while exiting - which is just as big a safety hazard, IMHO.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

First of all, in several decades of driving I can probably count on one hand the number of people I've seen slow down BEFORE the exit lane splits off. Secondly, the "fast" lane isn't the "speeding" lane. I'd be more sympathetic to your argument if you'd have pointed out the safety hazard of, say, a slow-moving truck using a left exit rather than suggesting that everyone in that lane is going 30km/h over the speed limit. My experience is that the people who go 120km/h try to do it no matter what lane they're in, including the "slow" lanes while exiting - which is just as big a safety hazard, IMHO.

They may need to slow down to merge / weave into an opening in the left lane to get to the exit - depending on traffic volumes. That in turn could cause cause a driver behind to "tap their brakes" ... which in turn causes a chain reaction.

http://phys.org/news117283969.html

The fact that the cars in the fast lane are speeding doesn't negate the reality that it could cause a dangerous situation.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Unless I'm reading it wrong, that statistic covers quite a few different, pretty independent traffic movements. It's not just 2193 accidents involving people coming off Grandview or going onto Willingdon.

It also includes accidents on Willingdon caused by people turning left and running into people who forget to yield. It includes people coming off #1 to SB Willingdon and darting across all lanes to get to the left turn lane to Canada Way and getting Tboned (before they get to the statistically separate Canada Way intersection. It includes cars coming off the very short on ramp to Hwy 1 westbound. It includes people getting confused in the lane differences on the exit from #1 WB where 1 lane goes north, the other south and what one turns onto Grandview. It includes people in the HOV lane realizing at the last minute they want to exit at Grandview so they cut across 3 lanes of freeway.

Almost all of those problems are being mitigated by improvements to the area. Even the Grandview onramp, while not as amazing as they planned, is a huge improvement with the movement of the Willingdon offramp further down the freeway.

You are correct, still it is a stark difference at that area than anywhere else on the highway. I just think given how bad that interchange is (or was) compared to every other interchange on the highway, they would have put more effort into the collector concept rather than simply cheapening out.

I agree they have done improvements especially to specifically address off ramp traffic backing up onto the highway, but driving that stretch a lot, I still think the cross traffic and how short the stretch is, means there will be accidents still and a lot more than there should be given the fact they are basically rebuilding that area from stratch.

I really hate going "Oh well it will be better." When we're spending billions of dollars and rebuilding an entire interchange an being inconvenienced for several years, I expect it to be done right and I am just a _little_ disappointed with Willingdon. Especially given it is basically the bridge between 3 major areas. A major Vancouver interchange and the gap between Burnaby's 2 major neighborhoods in Brentwood and Metrotown. There will be a LOT of car movement there and that will just increase.

Someone else in another post mentioned it is no different than the HWY 91 and 99 interchange where traffic entering HWY 91 need to cross the 99 traffic to get onto HWY 10 offramp. There is a big difference though in the fact for that stretch you have 800 meters to make that change (HWY 99/91) and for Grandview to Willgdon you have 125 meters.

800 meters to 125 meters or almost 8 times the distance at highway speeds. 125 meters at 60kph takes 7 seconds to travel. I just don't really trust Vancouver drivers to make 7 second highway merging decisions even at 60kph.

I hope to be proven wrong but I still think that stretch will be a gong show especially during rush hour.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jhausner

There is a big difference though in the fact for that stretch you have 800 meters to make that change (HWY 99/91) and for Grandview to Willgdon you have 125 meters.

My Google earth "Path" tool measurement of the distance between the end of the Grandview on-ramp and the start of the NEW Willingdon off-ramp shows well in excess of 800 metres. You understand, don't you, that the old exit which took you direct to the southbound lane of Willingdon is now closed?

[DKaz]

It certainly was not 125m before, more like 300m. A car traveling at 90km/h travels at 25m per second so it has 12 seconds to finish that merge. Anyway, it seems the solid line begins 300m from Grandview but at least Grandview freeflows onto Hwy 1 before turning into an exit lane.

With the current configuration though, it seems nice and long, over 600m now, but Grandview has a short merge.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Mininari

This could still be interesting since HOV users (and violators) tend to treat the HOV lane as an ultra-fast lane lane. Minimum 120, or you get tail-gated. I'll be curious to see how this plays out when these ramps open up.

Is the eastbound HOV lane going to start upstream of the HOV ramp merge point, or is the merge point the start of the HOV lane? If its the later, then what I described above shouldn't be a problem...

I am not sure, but it may be so since at that point the freeway turns from 3 lanes in each direction to 4.