Halifax Stanfield International Airport Developments

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I wasn't going to comment on this yesterday, I was too tired. But now I think I will and I'm going to provide a planner (in general) perspective.

A lot of Airports are realizing that financially, their success is with their land. They are leveraging expansion of runways and building on cargo capacity, beyond passenger capacity. Some airports (like Edmonton) really have a huge land base (like YHZ) and are doing parks like this (in fact this article provides some details). If you look at the future build out for YEG, it's going to be HUGE.

My issue with this is the same as Waye's - you are building essentially another Dartmouth Common (with no residential component) in a place where the road network is not established for that. Look at Bayer's Lake Shopping Area - that road network is a mess and Washmill Lake hasn't helped that much. When peak shopping periods occur, this area (along with most big box stores) are a mess. So I would need to see a well thought out engineering program before I'd be willing to sign on board with it; but the big transportation issue for me is the likelihood of this being served by public transit which is ZERO. So this will be a hugely car oriented area - which isn't good at all.

The other planning issue for me Waye has brought up - the fact that DC was expected to be a success and it's doing okay. It begs the question are we getting the best use of land for our $? Since DC will have a residential component, it is not as bad - but this would never have a residential component because of noise issues from the airport (and federal airport overlays). I am also forced to ask the question - how many people who are 'in transit' through YHZ are going to venture to this place to shop and then jump back on a plane? Do we have layovers here that are 4+ hours that I wasn't aware of?

The bigger issue that this screams at is sprawl - pure and simple. I have no objection to the airport being an employment centre; in fact that is what It should be under the RP. But there is a difference between the airport being an employment centre (aviation, hotel/tourism and aviation related industries) and then adding a bunch of big box retail because they could.

It also begs the question of who is going to go to this? Are there that many shoppers in Elmsdale/Enfield that this would be warranted? This also begs the issue that planners have started debating about the future of such sites and how we 'deal with them' in the future. Some of you may have seen this map (my future visioning and opportunities sites) and I have identified DC and Bayers Lake. One theory that has been put forward (by some planners) is to use the vast parking lots as test cases for new mixed use redevelopment - allowing the 'big box stores' to relocate in urban formats into mixed use buildings on these existing sites. Then demolishing the large format store and adding more mixed use - these are huge sites. If you look at Costco in BL, it could likely have a huge commercial podium around the two flanking streets and at least 3-4 towers. If we think of that as the 'future' reuse of these sites - what is the possibility that could occur at YHZ? Likely nil...

As always, your posts are well thought out and informative. Thanks for the education!

[hoser111]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

...why do we need 300K sf office at the bloody airport?" So yes I support that, if you actually care to read what I wrote.

300k sf is as much office space as the 2 Nova Centre towers will add up to. That is a lot of office.

While I`m not privy(nor are most of us here) to the project details. I hardly think they`re going to nail up 300K sf of office space on spec day one. I would expect, as others have said, that the interest would be for aviation-centric businesses who`d want to operate close to the airport. So what if it takes 5 or 6 3-4 story buildings over 20-25 years. That would mean one heck of a lot of business going on at HIAA.

Oh and when you paint a picture of two Nova Center style towers, well, that`s it`s own kind of mis-direction isn`t it.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

As always, your posts are well thought out and informative. Thanks for the education!

Thanks - I deal with this stuff everyday (in a different City) and so have to work with the Political side that Waye is a part of (obviously different city Council though).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Thanks - I deal with this stuff everyday (in a different City) and so have to work with the Political side that Waye is a part of (obviously different city Council though).

I for one hope that someday you decide to come back to Halifax to put your talents to use here. I think you have some great ideas that would really benefit our area!

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I for one hope that someday you decide to come back to Halifax to put your talents to use here. I think you have some great ideas that would really benefit our area!

I appreciate that and I have applied for jobs with HRM. I haven't heard about one and didn't make it on another. Despite what you might think, I've only been in the profession for about 9-10 years (I'm only 35 lol). So when someone has 20+ years of experience, it makes it tough. I've applied for a couple jobs throughout the maritimes, so we will see how that goes. But a colleague of mine was recently hired by HRM and she shares many of my views. So hopefully that has some impact...

Personally, I don't mind being passed over if it's going to give HRM other people who have great ideas too. Just disappointing I couldn't come home. My goal is to make it back to a growing maritime city and just work there to retirement. Ideally, I'd like to be working in a senior planning level and work upward...that way you retain knowledge over the long term.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Nice use of selective quotes and mis-direction. I said "Services for the local community and travellers (like the way the hotels support the airport) makes sense, the rest of it, why do we need 300K sf office at the bloody airport?" So yes I support that, if you actually care to read what I wrote.

300k sf is as much office space as the 2 Nova Centre towers will add up to. That is a lot of office. The presentation called for "destination retail". The is not about servicing employees and fliers. There is a huge difference between offering better amenities to travellers and creating a retail park that is competing with other retail areas.

The regional plan supports the airport, and amenities and expansion of the business park are all a-ok with me. Building a new DC when DC itself is still struggling is not an interest to me.

Maybe you should wait to see all of the details before jumping all over this. This seems to be the trend in council. The airport is too far outside of the city to really compete with other retail. No one from Dartmouth or Halifax is going to make a special trip to shop at the airport if the same or similar stores are closer. They are making the case that the nearly 10 million people coming and going from the airport would support a lot of the retail amenities. I think the lack of residential itself would prevent any significant retail from wanting to setup shop anyways.

And buddy I did read your entire post. Clearly you are the expert on all things in our municipality, the rest of us taxpayers will just accept whatever decisions are made based on our genius councillors opinions.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I wasn't going to comment on this yesterday, I was too tired. But now I think I will and I'm going to provide a planner (in general) perspective.

A lot of Airports are realizing that financially, their success is with their land. They are leveraging expansion of runways and building on cargo capacity, beyond passenger capacity. Some airports (like Edmonton) really have a huge land base (like YHZ) and are doing parks like this (in fact this article provides some details). If you look at the future build out for YEG, it's going to be HUGE.

My issue with this is the same as Waye's - you are building essentially another Dartmouth Common (with no residential component) in a place where the road network is not established for that. Look at Bayer's Lake Shopping Area - that road network is a mess and Washmill Lake hasn't helped that much. When peak shopping periods occur, this area (along with most big box stores) are a mess. So I would need to see a well thought out engineering program before I'd be willing to sign on board with it; but the big transportation issue for me is the likelihood of this being served by public transit which is ZERO. So this will be a hugely car oriented area - which isn't good at all.

The other planning issue for me Waye has brought up - the fact that DC was expected to be a success and it's doing okay. It begs the question are we getting the best use of land for our $? Since DC will have a residential component, it is not as bad - but this would never have a residential component because of noise issues from the airport (and federal airport overlays). I am also forced to ask the question - how many people who are 'in transit' through YHZ are going to venture to this place to shop and then jump back on a plane? Do we have layovers here that are 4+ hours that I wasn't aware of?

The bigger issue that this screams at is sprawl - pure and simple. I have no objection to the airport being an employment centre; in fact that is what It should be under the RP. But there is a difference between the airport being an employment centre (aviation, hotel/tourism and aviation related industries) and then adding a bunch of big box retail because they could.

It also begs the question of who is going to go to this? Are there that many shoppers in Elmsdale/Enfield that this would be warranted? This also begs the issue that planners have started debating about the future of such sites and how we 'deal with them' in the future. Some of you may have seen this map (my future visioning and opportunities sites) and I have identified DC and Bayers Lake. One theory that has been put forward (by some planners) is to use the vast parking lots as test cases for new mixed use redevelopment - allowing the 'big box stores' to relocate in urban formats into mixed use buildings on these existing sites. Then demolishing the large format store and adding more mixed use - these are huge sites. If you look at Costco in BL, it could likely have a huge commercial podium around the two flanking streets and at least 3-4 towers. If we think of that as the 'future' reuse of these sites - what is the possibility that could occur at YHZ? Likely nil...

Note: the shopping center at the Edmonton Airport is apparently an outlet center, which are usually away from the more built up areas. Halifax does not have an outlet center so I can see the attraction. BTW, the airport in Pittsburgh has quite a large shopping facility included.

[q12]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Note: the shopping center at the Edmonton Airport is apparently an outlet center, which are usually away from the more built up areas. Halifax does not have an outlet center so I can see the attraction. BTW, the airport in Pittsburgh has quite a large shopping facility included.

Excellent point. I believe that Tanger Factory Outlets have big expansion plans in Canada.

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/business-strategy/were-getting-outlet-malls-in-canada-finally/

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I appreciate that and I have applied for jobs with HRM. I haven't heard about one and didn't make it on another. Despite what you might think, I've only been in the profession for about 9-10 years (I'm only 35 lol). So when someone has 20+ years of experience, it makes it tough. I've applied for a couple jobs throughout the maritimes, so we will see how that goes. But a colleague of mine was recently hired by HRM and she shares many of my views. So hopefully that has some impact...

Personally, I don't mind being passed over if it's going to give HRM other people who have great ideas too. Just disappointing I couldn't come home. My goal is to make it back to a growing maritime city and just work there to retirement. Ideally, I'd like to be working in a senior planning level and work upward...that way you retain knowledge over the long term.

You wouldn't consider a town planning position at a smaller center like Truro or Amherst? Usually places like that only have one planner so doing everyones work might make up for it being less exciting

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

You wouldn't consider a town planning position at a smaller center like Truro or Amherst? Usually places like that only have one planner so doing everyones work might make up for it being less exciting

Applied in SJ and Charlottetown.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

Note: the shopping center at the Edmonton Airport is apparently an outlet center, which are usually away from the more built up areas. Halifax does not have an outlet center so I can see the attraction. BTW, the airport in Pittsburgh has quite a large shopping facility included.

Yes - that is true. But that doesn't mean that these outlet malls are any less consistent with a big box retail format. I've seen the ones in Chicago and Las Vegas and they have a very similar format - sea of parking, with the outlet stores surrounding it. The one in Vegas I went to was a little bit different, but the same feel (parking on both sides and the stores clustered in the centre with pedestrian pathways because of the warm climate - it allowed you to walk).

No one from Dartmouth or Halifax is going to make a special trip to shop at the airport if the same or similar stores are closer. They are making the case that the nearly 10 million people coming and going from the airport would support a lot of the retail amenities. I think the lack of residential itself would prevent any significant retail from wanting to setup shop anyways.

I agree with q12's comment in part; but not completely. Let's think about this logically (common sense hats on now). Most people go to the airport to either fly in/out or pick up people. Now if you think about picking up a relative, other than perhaps picking up a tim's - what would you purchase there? I can't see myself (if I was picking up relatives or friends) saying 'oh hey, before we head back to the City - let's go to X store because they have a sale and it's right down the road'. So I do agree, likely the commercial component might not fly so well, regardless of a lack of residential.

So then what sort of commercial would work there? If they were talking about doing something along the lines of Gasoline Alley (in Red Deer) - being mainly service stations and hotels, then that's different. But that too also begs the question - do you want to create an area of hotels for the travelling public or try to draw them into the city? One of the critical issues with Gasoline alley was that it fell in the County of Red Deer, whereas the City of Red Deer was a little further east. They didn't like that development and appealed it (and failed) because they wanted people to come into the City to stay. For a long time it was mainly the 'low cost' hotel chains - but lately there have been more of the 3 star type hotels (like Holiday Inn Express) showing up - which could (arguably) take away from people going into the City to spend money.

So perhaps we are jumping the gun and assuming commercial to mean big box retail, I'll grant that. But until we know for certain it really could be anything (including big box retail)...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

One theory that has been put forward (by some planners) is to use the vast parking lots as test cases for new mixed use redevelopment - allowing the 'big box stores' to relocate in urban formats into mixed use buildings on these existing sites. Then demolishing the large format store and adding more mixed use - these are huge sites. If you look at Costco in BL, it could likely have a huge commercial podium around the two flanking streets and at least 3-4 towers. If we think of that as the 'future' reuse of these sites - what is the possibility that could occur at YHZ? Likely nil...

Costco does not exist in an "urban format". This sounds very Soviet-bloc central-planning-ish.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Costco does not exist in an "urban format". This sounds very Soviet-bloc central-planning-ish.

Ah but that's where you are wrong my friend...

I give you an Urban Format Costco in Vancouver (Adjacent to the Skytrain with residential above). I have shopped there and it had just as much selection as any other...

[q12]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Ah but that's where you are wrong my friend...

I give you an Urban Format Costco in Vancouver (Adjacent to the Skytrain with residential above). I have shopped there and it had just as much selection as any other...

Too bad all of the wingnuts come out of the woodwork anytime someone wants to build some decent tall residential towers downtown or on the peninsula because it might block the view. That is the kind of density we would need to support any kind of urban format store like Costco.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by q12

Too bad all of the wingnuts come out of the woodwork anytime someone wants to build some decent tall residential towers downtown or on the peninsula because it might block the view. That is the kind of density we would need to support any kind of urban format store like Costco.

Interestingly; it's not (well not all the time). I went to a session at the American Planning Association Conference in Chicago called 'Introducing Density to the Neighbourhood' and we talked about urban format retail. What the presenters were able to show was that if you build even mid-rise (say up to 12 stories), you could easily handle urban format. The only catch would be that you would need a corridor of them (on top of the low density that may be near by) to support them.

So if you looked at Agricola for instance - you could consolidate the lots fronting onto Agricola and build a bunch of mid rise mixed use buildings where some of them had this urban format retail and the cumulative affect of all the additional units would be that the retail should thrive nicely.

The only catch to that is that if you do midrise, you'd need to have a few buildings already built and occupied to create the right 'tipping point' where the urban format would move in. Only one building (with limited low density near by) may not be enough. But you are partially correct that if you build something as tall as this example from Vancouver, you likely wouldn't have that issue.

Perhaps, that is something that could be done with Hollis Street on the site next to the Bank of Canada building? Or better yet incorporated into the Twisted Sisters site - when and if it ever gets built? But we seem to be moving off the topic of the airport here...

[halifaxboyns]

I'd also add that here is another example of Urban Format retail with residential above in the mid-rise format (goes with what I was saying earlier to q12). This one is a Save on Foods (Great quality of produce!), Winners and Home Depot. If you go down the street towards the bridge you will find a Canadian Tire and Best Buy that don't have residential above, but are in one building. I think if you head up the street (away from the bridge) there are other examples. This is the building that former Councillor Dawne Sloane was thinking of when she brought up big box on the Peninsula. There is also an example up the street (on the other side) of a mixed use mid-rise building with a Whole Foods in the basement, so within 2 blocks are 2 major grocery stores.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'd also add that here is another example of Urban Format retail with residential above in the mid-rise format (goes with what I was saying earlier to q12). This one is a Save on Foods (Great quality of produce!), Winners and Home Depot. If you go down the street towards the bridge you will find a Canadian Tire and Best Buy that don't have residential above, but are in one building. I think if you head up the street (away from the bridge) there are other examples. This is the building that former Councillor Dawne Sloane was thinking of when she brought up big box on the Peninsula. There is also an example up the street (on the other side) of a mixed use mid-rise building with a Whole Foods in the basement, so within 2 blocks are 2 major grocery stores.

Where do customers park?

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Applied in SJ and Charlottetown.

Queue baby boomer response: "entitled Gen X/Y'ers!"

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Ah but that's where you are wrong my friend...

I give you an Urban Format Costco in Vancouver (Adjacent to the Skytrain with residential above). I have shopped there and it had just as much selection as any other...

Vancouver debunks everything urban lol Most convenient place to live when your scraping by (minus the high rents)

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Where do customers park?

They take the skytrain! Never owned a car and lived in New Westminster and worked in East Van and it took me 20 minutes to get to work via skytrain. Basically the equivalent of commuting from Middle Sackville to Downtown Halifax. It can be done with a little forward thinking here.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

They take the skytrain! Never owned a car and lived in New Westminster and worked in East Van and it took me 20 minutes to get to work via skytrain. Basically the equivalent of commuting from Middle Sackville to Downtown Halifax. It can be done with a little forward thinking here.

And a few billion dollars.

[Nilan8888]

This may be the sort of thing you'd expect surrounding an airport, but that much space in only 20-25 years?

I mean, ok: let's say for the sake of argument that Halifax was going to jump to 1 million people within that timeframe. Well, you know, it might not be such a bad idea then. And I'm certainly in favor of Aerotech-centered industries having room to move in around the airport.

But in 20-25 years, how big will Halifax's population get? And how much of this retail, etc. space is necessary to be had out at the airport, given Halifax's population base?

Ultimately in the long term, this is probably the way the land around the airport should go. But I'd think the timeframe would be considerably longer than 20-25 years. Maybe that's just me.