DENVER | Transportation Thread

[RyanD]

This is transportation related right? Damn close to DIA today..


http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/c...r-includes-chance-heavy-scattered-storms


http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/c...r-includes-chance-heavy-scattered-storms

[CharlesCO]

Originally Posted by bobg

In that scenario the D line would still exist and go to the downtown loop. It just would not go north of the downtown loop since a streetcar would replace it for that stretch of the D line. So that would not enable a west corridor train to go into downtown.

My understanding was that the "streetcar" would be an as of now unplanned project where the streetcar would run from 38th & Blake to 20th & Welton before going down Broadway to Civic Center, foregoing the downtown loop. Is this correct, or did I dream up this line in my fantasy world?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bobg

One thing I was wondering about when reading the article was with the Colfax corridor under study could a Streetcar/LRT share a rail portion of Colfax from Auraria to Civic Center? How hard/expensive would it be to secure the ROW along Colfax and build the junctions to get a train from the West Corridor through Auraria campus to Colfax/Broadway? I also wonder if taking away ROW on Colfax is a non-starter or finding space for the trains to turn around or wait near Civic Center is just too impossible for that idea to work.

How does that get us to the west line though? Either you do a platform connection/new station (which doesn't require s atreetcar), or you have to cross the existing light rail somewhere. Otherwise, you're just running a streetcar on Colfax, connecting it to the existing LRT, but not helping with the west corridor issue.

As for shared track - you'd have the same capacity problems adding a streetcar to the existing lines, even for 10 feet along Colfax, that you'd have running them on the downtown loop.

I am not sure how/why you'd take ROW on Colfax - you'd have to cross the light rail - so you either interfere with those operations, or you build a bridge - neither a great option. I don't think the streetcar really fixes anything for us here.

[EngiNerd]

Might have gotten lost on the previous page, but again, why won't the 18th/19th St. circulator help alleviate a lot of these concerns for transferring downtown/civic center station from DUS?

Why do we need a direct connection between the two LRT lines at this point, its pretty much water over the damn now.

[bunt_q]

I purposefully ignored it, hoping someone else would respond.

You take a slow train that goes back toward the west, to get to Union Station. Switch to a circulator (that only runs peak hours, M-F), which drives you back north around downtown, and then south again to the Civic Center area. Making a complete circle around downtown, rather than a connection to an existing line that goes right up the middle of it. To get to Civic Center, adds minimum 30 minutes. To 17th and California - the "center" of downtown, probably 20.

That's why it's a problem. Nobody who is a "choice rider" will do it. I certainly wouldn't, if I was going from the west side to civic center now, I'd drive. There is no parking in Denver that's so expensive it's not worth an hour of my day.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

How does that get us to the west line though? Either you do a platform connection/new station (which doesn't require s atreetcar), or you have to cross the existing light rail somewhere. Otherwise, you're just running a streetcar on Colfax, connecting it to the existing LRT, but not helping with the west corridor issue.

As for shared track - you'd have the same capacity problems adding a streetcar to the existing lines, even for 10 feet along Colfax, that you'd have running them on the downtown loop.

I am not sure how/why you'd take ROW on Colfax - you'd have to cross the light rail - so you either interfere with those operations, or you build a bridge - neither a great option. I don't think the streetcar really fixes anything for us here.

They would take ROW on Colfax so you could build something similar to California/Stout/Welton along Colfax heading to civic center that both the streetcar from Aurora to Auraria, and some LRT's coming from Lakewood headed to Civic Center would use. They would also have to build the junctions to get the west corridor to the track that heads to the downtown loop, and then onto the new LRT/Streetcar ROW on Colfax before it goes to the downtown loop. The thought was the streetcar would stop then turn around before it gets on the existing LRT tracks (but share the new ones), and the west corridor would use as much of the existing LRT tracks as it could. The streetcar would operate in mixed traffic east of broadway as currently intended for the whole length.

Not 100% sure at what point that re-allocated for rail ROW on Colfax would be needed to make LRT coming from the west corridor to civic center feasible (Viaduct?, At 7th?, At Speer?). However I was under the impression the choke-point on the downtown loop was entering the loop by the convention center not the junction at Auraria. So I thought the West line separating off to the new ROW could occur any time along Colfax if something like that was done. Could be wrong on that choke-point though.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

My understanding was that the "streetcar" would be an as of now unplanned project where the streetcar would run from 38th & Blake to 20th & Welton before going down Broadway to Civic Center, foregoing the downtown loop. Is this correct, or did I dream up this line in my fantasy world?

The last EE RTD finished on the central corridor extension had a new line operating from Five Points to the downtown loop . It was going to be a single LRT vehicle going from 38th and Blake through the downtown loop. When that new single LRT vehicle line went live they were going to truncate the D line so it would never go north of the Downtown loop. So we would have had the D/F/H/WhateverLetterTheNewLineToFivePointsWasGoingToBe operating in the downtown loop .

They are re-considering an earlier dismissed alternative in the EE for the central corridor extension which is the streetcar to Civic Center you mentioned. The re-consideration of the streetcar to Civic Center is primarily due to that new capacity constraint on the downtown loop, and is being encouraged by Five Points who wanted that all along anyway. So the capacity constraint is squeezing out a proposed line in the downtown loop that was due to operate every 15 minutes . So that does not really free anything up since the line being replaced with the streetcar is not even feasible.

To my knowledge no plans to remove the D line from the downtown loop exist, and it is the best performing LRT route so I doubt RTD would do that. So no you are not dreaming the streetcar, but the D line being removed was not really part of the plans.

[CharlesCO]

Thank you for that information. It took me a minute to realize that the D Line would continue to operate in addition to the new 38th & Blake bound streetcar. It sounds like a rail connection between Auraria West and Civic Center may be needed in order to connect all the south and west lines with the three differing downtown destinations (DUS, downtown loop, and Civic Center).

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I purposefully ignored it, hoping someone else would respond.

You take a slow train that goes back toward the west, to get to Union Station. Switch to a circulator (that only runs peak hours, M-F), which drives you back north around downtown, and then south again to the Civic Center area. Making a complete circle around downtown, rather than a connection to an existing line that goes right up the middle of it. To get to Civic Center, adds minimum 30 minutes. To 17th and California - the "center" of downtown, probably 20.

That's why it's a problem. Nobody who is a "choice rider" will do it. I certainly wouldn't, if I was going from the west side to civic center now, I'd drive. There is no parking in Denver that's so expensive it's not worth an hour of my day.

Then really that is pretty terrible planning by RTD if no one that is a "choice rider" will use it, because that was how the system was designed to work. Shouldn't there have been some kind of focus group for those that actually used the existing bus routes daily.

There really isn't an easy way to fix this at this point unless you hoof it between Auraria West Station and Colfax/Auraria Station or they setup some kind of shuttle (doubtful). They probably should have setup a shared transfer station, but for whatever reason did not, and is water over the dam at this point (probably has some to do with Auraria owning all of that land south of Colfax between Rio, Shoshone, and the freight rail line and eminent domain implications of that).

So realistically, taking the 16 bus from say Ulysses Station to Civic Center is about an hour on the route map. The LRT from the Taj Mahal to DUS is 40 minutes, and then the circulator will run at 5 minute frequencies, with 5 stations between DUS and the Civic Center (about 2 miles), so lets say a 12 minute trip. That's still faster (57 minutes at most) than taking the 16....anyone know what the trip from the same stations (or there about) on the 16L took? I just am not seeing the extra hour added onto the trip that is being complained about...maybe right now that is the case because the Circulator isn't running (and maybe they should have kept the 16L until it does), but once that is in operation, I still see it as being about a wash unless I am missing something.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

Then really that is pretty terrible planning by RTD if no one that is a "choice rider" will use it, because that was how the system was designed to work. Shouldn't there have been some kind of focus group for those that actually used the existing bus routes daily.

IIRC, most of the "choice riders" came into Market Street Station, not Civic Center Station. RTD probably assumed that the five block difference wouldn't make that much of an impact.

As for the non-choice riders. We are still assuming that the main issue is getting DT. That might not be the case for the majority of non-choice riders. The 16L were always big on transfers outside of DT to/from other routes (Auraria, Sheridan, Pierce, Wadsworth, etc) and it might be that the W Line makes the transfers more difficult. But that would be pretty disappointing after all the work and reconfiguration RTD put into making the other lines feeders and vise versa for the W Line.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

IIRC, most of the "choice riders" came into Market Street Station, not Civic Center Station.

No, other way around. Market Street is mostly the Boulder buses, airport, and the 120x. Yes, those are "choice riders," but not the ones we're replacing. All of the express buses (those "epitomes of transit subsidies to the wealthy") all went to Civic Center.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Hmmm, so abandon the idea of a high frequency local rail line with tons of N/S transfers

...

The service the 16L provides is ideal for shifting over to the W Line. The majority of the riders are transferring, it runs a limited number of stations, and is faster than the local line.

...

but I suspect that a lot of the people who are affected aren't even heading into DT but were using the 16L as a local service west of Federal. If that's the case, is it something that can be addressed by upping the 16 frequency along the entire route? Or do we need to wait another 4-10 months and see if people do shift?

I didn't see this post before. Curious where you are getting this. That is very different than how I would imagine the 16L operates. It would be highly unusual, in any case, if the majority of ridership was (a) out in the suburbs, and (b) transfer-based. I know that's not how the 15L operates at all (we have that data readily available from the streetcar studies). Not sure why the west would be so different.

Who's got easy access to the 16 and 16L ride counts? I am lazy.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I didn't see this post before. Curious where you are getting this. That is very different than how I would imagine the 16L operates. It would be highly unusual, in any case, if the majority of ridership was (a) out in the suburbs, and (b) transfer-based. I know that's not how the 15L operates at all (we have that data readily available from the streetcar studies). Not sure why the west would be so different.

More anecdotal based on riding the 16L for four years. The major stops with the most passengers embarking debarking were always the transfer stations, which are also major corridors so that could explain it, and the bus was never full entering or exiting Civic Center Station. The biggest pick up in ridership heading West started at the Auraria Station and continued through the Wadsworth Station. It was approximately the same the other way. Civic Center Station did not seem like a high ridership station for the 16L at all. I'm pretty positive the ridership data would roughly coincide with these observations, but the only thing I could find was the Final West Corridor Service Plan:

http://www.rtd-denver.com/PDF_Files/Serv...Corridor_Service%20Plan_October_2012.pdf

If you're defining the suburbs as anything outside of DT proper, than that's where the majority of the 16L's ridership was. The streetcar suburbs of Denver followed by the suburb of Lakewood. It wasn't a ton of people commuting downtown or out of downtown for work who were jumping out at Civic Center Station. It definitely wasn't like the 0 or 0L, not sure about the 15 or 15L. The W Line really does mimic this service and it will be interesting to see if the ridership of the 16L, which likely shifted almost entirely over to the 16, does slowly migrate to the W Line. As for connecting to Civic Center Station in the short to medium term, I'll still argue that a high frequency abbreviated run of the 16 from Federal-Decatur to Civic Center would work.

[bunt_q]

Okay, I am persuaded.

Although, point of clarification, I wouldn't necessarily equate all downtown riders with "commuters."

[bunt_q]

You know what's interesting - this pairs up nicely with the discussion we've had (and will have even more frequently in the future) regarding the east Colfax streetcar, and whether that mode is intended to replace the 15 or the 15L. The general assumption has been that the streeetcar would operate like the 15 local, and the 15L will continue to operate as a replacement for the local service.

Which is the opposite of how we assume the west corridor is interacting with the 16/16L - where the light rail is intended to replace the longer-distance service, while the local remains.

I guess the question is whether that's appropriate. Probably necessary because it's too far off Colfax to replace the need for the local service. But it's also very slow... streetcar speeds, at times... so it's not a great 16L replacement either. Ah well. It's still the best line we've got (or close).

[CPVLIVE]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

IIRC, most of the "choice riders" came into Market Street Station, not Civic Center Station. RTD probably assumed that the five block difference wouldn't make that much of an impact.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, other way around. Market Street is mostly the Boulder buses, airport, and the 120x. Yes, those are "choice riders," but not the ones we're replacing. All of the express buses (those "epitomes of transit subsidies to the wealthy") all went to Civic Center.

If we are talking Express buses, of the twelve existing routes RTD lists going downtown, nine go to Market Street and two go to Civic Center (one to DIA). When I was riding the 72X it looked like all the Express routes from the north and west went to Market and the east and south went to Civic Center and most of the Civic Center Express routes were eliminated in favor of light rail.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by CPVLIVE

If we are talking Express buses, of the twelve existing routes RTD lists going downtown, nine go to Market Street and two go to Civic Center (one to DIA). When I was riding the 72X it looked like all the Express routes from the north and west went to Market and the east and south went to Civic Center and most of the Civic Center Express routes were eliminated in favor of light rail.

Well, if you're looking at a current map, that makes sense. My old express route options from the 1st/Garrison area in Lakewood always went to Civic Center. But obviously the system has been tweaked dramatically now that the west corridor is done. That's the whole point.

[bcp]

I can't help but think that the original central corridor route up broadway should havebeen maintained... Doesnt really fix the w, but could have dropped all this to one transfer max.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

The general assumption has been that the streeetcar would operate like the 15 local, and the 15L will continue to operate as a replacement for the local service.

Which is the opposite of how we assume the west corridor is interacting with the 16/16L - where the light rail is intended to replace the longer-distance service, while the local remains.

Probably necessary because it's too far off Colfax to replace the need for the local service. But it's also very slow... streetcar speeds, at times... so it's not a great 16L replacement either.

The difference, theoretically, is that the W is on its own right-of-way, not sharing a lane with cars. So it should be faster than any limited bus in mixed traffic.

Is it really that slow?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

The difference, theoretically, is that the W is on its own right-of-way, not sharing a lane with cars. So it should be faster than any limited bus in mixed traffic.

Is it really that slow?

It's not that slow (though the 35MPH speed restriction through the streetcar-style portion of the W Line seems like some poor appeasement to placate the neighborhoods). But, having to cut through DT via the Circulator or Mall Shuttle to get to the other side kills any time savings you get from the dedicated ROW.