DENVER | Transportation Thread

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by mr1138

And if you're going to use freight ROW, you can simply "fishhook" the line around the Prospect neighborhood with negligible impacts on travel time.

This is what the suburbanites think will happen to the train if they 'fishhook' through Prospect. Their true fear:

[Zmapper]

"Hey, look at the view of Union Station from up here!"

[The Dirt]

Hahaha! +1

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I know that a lot of this is driven by economics, the 16L was cheaper to ride to Golden than the light rail, and basic stupidity, people can't figure out how to transfer to get to the southern end of DT. But RTD needs to do a better job of messaging on where to transfer and ramp of the frequency of bus service between the Federal-Dectaur Station and Civic Center Station. Boom. Problem solved.

Why should they have to? We had a perfectly good, fast, cheap, and direct bus service. Which was dropped in favor of a slow (or equivalent) train, 3 blocks off where folks want to be, that is indirect and forces a transfer? I'd be mad too. I get that a regional bus from Parker/Nine Mile to downtown might get dropped when the light rail goes in. But it's a little tough to argue that the W, as it operates today from Sheridan/12th Ave to Union Station, is a good substitute for somebody trying to get from Sheridan/Colfax to Civic Center Station. That takes the "trains are better" assumption to an extreme that borders on absurdity.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Why should they have to? We had a perfectly good, fast, cheap, and direct bus service. Which was dropped in favor of a slow (or equivalent) train, 3 blocks off where folks want to be, that is indirect and forces a transfer? I'd be mad too. I get that a regional bus from Parker/Nine Mile to downtown might get dropped when the light rail goes in. But it's a little tough to argue that the W, as it operates today from Sheridan/12th Ave to Union Station, is a good substitute for somebody trying to get from Sheridan/Colfax to Civic Center Station. That takes the "trains are better" assumption to an extreme that borders on absurdity.

It's actually a faster trip DT, or the other way, by a good 5-10 minutes than the 16L was using either Wadsworth or Garrison as the trip origination/destination. The train is also more convenient for those workers in LoDo, but not for the legions of government drones with their heavily subsidized eco-passes who frolic around Civic Center Station. Why should the train cater to them? Are not my tax dollars subsidizing their choice of transit enough?

The problem is, as usual, the last mile. If you want to access Civic Center Station from the West Line, you shouldn't have to go to Union Station (nor should you if you have one iota of intelligence). You should transfer, yes I realize that it is a scary word for those individuals who assumed that a transit system should always be point-to-point and that an eco-pass is the equivalent of a chauffeured Lexus, at the Federal-Dectaur Station. RTD should ramp up the 16, which makes the same number of stops after the Colfax Viaduct as the 16L did, and make the trip as seamless as possible in terms of dwell time at either Federal-Decatur or Civic Center. The W is designed to facilitate transfers, offering frequent trains, and people need to adjust to that. Should a transfer add an hour to their commute? That's ridiculous. But so is doing something that purposefully adds an hour.

[bunt_q]

What workers in Lodo? The entire CPV will have office space equivalent to, what, less than one Republic Plaza? Just because we have a lot of cranes up, let's not lose sight of where downtown's center of gravity (for anything but foo and drink) still lies.

As for your view on how transit "should" operate (obviously detached from the reality of how people actually think/act... easy solution - those who can afford it should just drive.

Sort of unrelated. But I am actually quite curious to see the modes splits for downtown commuters coming from the west five years from now. That area was already utilizing transit at a high rate. Overall transit use in the corridor will undoubtedly rise. But for downtown commuters, it would not surprise me to see the automobile having a higher share in a few years than it did before the light rail. If only because bus service out of the old Cold Spring pnR was really good.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

What workers in Lodo? The entire CPV will have office space equivalent to, what, less than one Republic Plaza? Just because we have a lot of cranes up, let's not lose sight of where downtown's center of gravity (for anything but foo and drink) still lies.

But all of those workers in One Republic Plaza drive as they are rich capitalists. Actually, I think if you combine One Republic and Wells Fargo together you'll have the office space in the CPV, An 1801 California, Tabor Center, and a 1999 Broadway would make for the office space in LoDo.

As for your view on how transit "should" operate (obviously detached from the reality of how people actually think/act... easy solution - those who can afford it should just drive.

It's my view of how a transit-user should operate, with some common sense, that's probably detached from reality. So my solution is to increase the hand holding: frequent transfers, a new recorded message at Federal-Decatur mentioning transfers to Civic Center Station, maybe implement Cirrus' branded high-frequency service, etc. All pretty cheap solutions that would cost less annually than bringing back a duplicate service for 75% of the corridor and addresses the biggest complaint: the difficulty in accessing Civic Center Station.

If a transfer from a train to a bus with 5-min headways can't be a solution, than it's time to give up on transit and just subsidize a car lease for everyone in the Denver Metro. Randall O'Toole was right.

Sort of unrelated. But I am actually quite curious to see the modes splits for downtown commuters coming from the west five years from now. That area was already utilizing transit at a high rate. Overall transit use in the corridor will undoubtedly rise. But for downtown commuters, it would not surprise me to see the automobile having a higher share in a few years than it did before the light rail. If only because bus service out of the old Cold Spring pnR was really good.

We'll see. Though the highest ridership was always on the 16/16L: the western chariot of the people. To me, it will be interesting to see if the masses do shift off of the 16 and start taking the W Line. Most of them are already transferring at either Federal, Sheridan, or Wadsworth so it will be interesting to see if they do shift to the train since the cost is the same and the trip time is shorter. All the other corridors are set up as commuter rail lines, the W is something different and it remains to be seen if it can be both a commuter line and a local line.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

What workers in Lodo? The entire CPV will have office space equivalent to, what, less than one Republic Plaza? Just because we have a lot of cranes up, let's not lose sight of where downtown's center of gravity (for anything but foo and drink) still lies.

As for your view on how transit "should" operate (obviously detached from the reality of how people actually think/act... easy solution - those who can afford it should just drive.

Sort of unrelated. But I am actually quite curious to see the modes splits for downtown commuters coming from the west five years from now. That area was already utilizing transit at a high rate. Overall transit use in the corridor will undoubtedly rise. But for downtown commuters, it would not surprise me to see the automobile having a higher share in a few years than it did before the light rail. If only because bus service out of the old Cold Spring pnR was really good.

Well stated.


When will those who pick the actual, to be built, right-of-way, be frequent public transit users instead of those car users who regard their choices as a 'reality oriented' experience with movers and shakers?

(The new, to be expanded, free shuttle is an example, of RTD, in house, having to compensate for funneling W line traffic towards the lower demand end of the 16th Street mall.)

Two transfers to go from Auraria West, to 16th and Stout, to cover a distance of a couple of kilometers is inexcusable, considering that RTD started with an essentially empty slate. (This inexcusability becomes even more so, when the frequency of service factor is keyed into the equation, as the transit rider is not dealing with 2 minute or 3 minute frequencies synched between 3 trains - the W, the C or E, and, the D, etc - but 7.5 to 15 minute inervals.)*

Side note:

When someone representing an institution with real power requests a ROW change, such as the CU Medical Center, the right-of-way location chosen for buildout can be changed almost overnight. Consequently, arguements by RTD concerning difficulties changing to be build right-of-way locations tend to be more of a function of the expression of those with power, than responding to user need.

Another side note:

I used to ride the AF (the airport) bus between Cold Springs and Market Street Station. Wonderful commute, except during the occasional snow or traffic issue, which took about 20 - 25 minutes, non-stop. Comfortable seats, too.

**************

*The W train line should have had a triangular instead of a Y interface with the DUS line. The option should have been made for a 4 track corridor between the W train line, the Central Corridor line at Colfax, and, the uptown lines. While scheduling issues are complex if the W train were to follow the D line into uptown, turning the east bound W line traffic south along the Central Corridor would not be, as that is what all southbound trains on the DUS line do now. This would make the W line uptown transfer issue tolerable, but still not the same-seat option which would be truly competive with the car.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

If you want to access Civic Center Station from the West Line, you shouldn't have to go to Union Station (nor should you if you have one iota of intelligence). You should transfer

It's pretty ridiculous there's not a direct transfer to the D/F/H line into central downtown. The W should have either gone one more block and joined the main line at 13th and Rio Court (with a transfer station there), or Auraria West and Colfax at Auraria should have been moved closer together at 5th Street, and treated as a single station (with two separate platforms and a walkway between). That's going to have to be fixed someday. Add it to the list for the next generation.

In the interim, transferring to a bus will have to do, but more people will do it if it's the downtown circulator. We should be thinking about extending the circulator to Auraria West.

[DenverInfill]

IIRC, the reason why the W doesn't go into the Central Downtown Loop is that, during peak times, with the D, F, and H line trains, there simply isn't room on the loop to accommodate all the trains. We'd have train gridlock.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

It's pretty ridiculous there's not a direct transfer to the D/F/H line into central downtown. The W should have either gone one more block and joined the main line at 13th and Rio Court (with a transfer station there), or Auraria West and Colfax at Auraria should have been moved closer together at 5th Street, and treated as a single station (with two separate platforms and a walkway between). That's going to have to be fixed someday. Add it to the list for the next generation.

I agree on the ridiculous nature of the way the W Line makes for a transfer to the south, or east, end of DT. But the line is done and the design choices were made for a host of reasons: a) cost, b) cost, and c) cost. Now we have to figure out what adjustments can be made with the resources available to make the commute easier. They also have to be as cheap as possible. Reinstating a line along the length of Colfax is a lot more expensive than adding a few more buses along 2 miles of Colfax.

I'm surprised that Bunt is arguing for the gold-plated solution. He's usually so much more prudent.

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

IIRC, the reason why the W doesn't go into the Central Downtown Loop is that, during peak times, with the D, F, and H line trains, there simply isn't room on the loop to accommodate all the trains. We'd have train gridlock.

I do wonder if anyone looked at pushing the H Line to Union Station and splitting the W Line between Union Station and the DT Loop during the design phase. Or some sort of idea along those lines. I"m sure it was considered and would be interested to know why it was dropped.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

IIRC, the reason why the W doesn't go into the Central Downtown Loop is that, during peak times, with the D, F, and H line trains, there simply isn't room on the loop to accommodate all the trains. We'd have train gridlock.

I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about a single station where you can transfer from the W to the D/F/H. They get *so* close. Even if we could just move Colfax at Auraria station west a couple of blocks, to more like 7th Street, that would make the transfer so much easier.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I'm surprised that Bunt is arguing for the gold-plated solution. He's usually so much more prudent.

Ha. What an interesting notion - that retaining/expanding bus service on west Colfax is the "gold plated solution." That says more about the west corridor than anything I could've come up with.

If it helps, I'd be willing to scale back headways on the light rail a tad to cover the cost of keeping the 16L. I'm no all-of-the-above legislator; I'm capable of making trade-offs.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I'm not talking about that. I'm just talking about a single station where you can transfer from the W to the D/F/H. They get *so* close. Even if we could just move Colfax at Auraria station west a couple of blocks, to more like 7th Street, that would make the transfer so much easier.

Early maps I saw of the integration between the west/central/and CPV lines did show something like this. I am not sure that it was ever actually planned, or if it was all so close that in early conceptual maps it just seemed like something that had to happen someday - because it's so obvious. But yeah, to run the W line within 100 feet of the D/F/H, and NOT provide an opportunity to transfer is high on the list of most absurd transit choices ever. (Right up there with the next stops on the W line being 100 feet apart - I'd bet the distance between Auraria West and Mile High is about the same as the spitting distance between the W and D/F/H).

If I were a conspiracy theorist... and I'm not... but if I were... I'd be tempted to say that was intentional, to force some purpose on Union Station earlier than would otherwise have been the case. Make those people go to DUS because we need people at DUS, simple. And an easy transfer (with the rail frequencies passing by into downtown at that point, it would be easy) would have upwards of half of riders switch to the downtown lines. And admittedly, lead to capacity problems, if you didn't dump off a lot of the Auraria-bound riders from the south lines at the same stop. Still, too-full trains because the system is working is a problem I think we should welcome.

In any case, I hate inconsistency and hypocrisy. To tell me that a three block walk from the light rail to the EMU at Union Station is no big deal... but not see fit to provide an Auraria-South transfer option, at less distance... seems like both.

[CharlesCO]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

IIRC, the reason why the W doesn't go into the Central Downtown Loop is that, during peak times, with the D, F, and H line trains, there simply isn't room on the loop to accommodate all the trains. We'd have train gridlock.

Is RTD still considering the conversion of the D Line into a streetcar line terminating at Civic Center? If so, wouldn't that free up enough capacity for a Golden-bound train in the downtown loop?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Ha. What an interesting notion - that retaining/expanding bus service on west Colfax is the "gold plated solution." That says more about the west corridor than anything I could've come up with.

At least you're advocating for a limited bus that serves a worthy ridership and not an express bus that is the epitome of a transit subsidy to the wealthy. But guess which line will come back?

If it helps, I'd be willing to scale back headways on the light rail a tad to cover the cost of keeping the 16L. I'm no all-of-the-above legislator; I'm capable of making trade-offs.

Hmmm, so abandon the idea of a high frequency local rail line with tons of N/S transfers and decide that the W should be a commuter line with Park-n-Rides like all of the others? Giving up on the experiment so soon?

The service the 16L provides is ideal for shifting over to the W Line. The majority of the riders are transferring, it runs a limited number of stations, and is faster than the local line. All of these can be better handled by the W Line and the minus of accessing Civic Center Station for some of the DT crowd can be adjusted for economically with additional bus service from Federal-Decatur.

Of course, we're all assuming that access to DT was the biggest complaint in the survey regarding the 16L. It was what the reporter chose to highlight, but I suspect that a lot of the people who are affected aren't even heading into DT but were using the 16L as a local service west of Federal. If that's the case, is it something that can be addressed by upping the 16 frequency along the entire route? Or do we need to wait another 4-10 months and see if people do shift?

[bcp]

is it nay impossible to add a triangle track where the Y currently is so that another line can be run? or the W can alternate? (Wdus Wdtown)

what if benson and CU wanted this? ;-)

[bcp]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

In any case, I hate inconsistency and hypocrisy. To tell me that a three block walk from the light rail to the EMU at Union Station is no big deal... but not see fit to provide an Auraria-South transfer option, at less distance... seems like both.

BRAVO...and well said..this is exactly how I feel when we lobbied for a EMU station between DUS and 38th and blake (21 blocks)...we were told that it's impossible for a few reasons, but mainly because it's "too close" for EMU to handle station spacing of 10 or 11 blocks...yet EMU on the north line (104 to 112, 112 to 124th) and gold line (most of it) have plenty of examples of this distance between stations...

[EngiNerd]

Won't the 18th/19th St. circulator help alleviate a lot of these concerns for transferring downtown from DUS?

[bobg]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

Is RTD still considering the conversion of the D Line into a streetcar line terminating at Civic Center? If so, wouldn't that free up enough capacity for a Golden-bound train in the downtown loop?

In that scenario the D line would still exist and go to the downtown loop. It just would not go north of the downtown loop since a streetcar would replace it for that stretch of the D line. So that would not enable a west corridor train to go into downtown.

In order to free up capacity, H or F elimination seems most feasible from a system standpoint. But I just cannot see from a political standpoint RTD subtracting an existing line for a new Fastracks line that serves a different part of the metro area.

One thing I was wondering about when reading the article was with the Colfax corridor under study could a Streetcar/LRT share a rail portion of Colfax from Auraria to Civic Center? How hard/expensive would it be to secure the ROW along Colfax and build the junctions to get a train from the West Corridor through Auraria campus to Colfax/Broadway? I also wonder if taking away ROW on Colfax is a non-starter or finding space for the trains to turn around or wait near Civic Center is just too impossible for that idea to work.