DENVER | Transportation Thread

[glowrock]

Oh good lord, this should be an interesting meet-up this weekend!

Brent, have I ever mentioned that I LOVE your devil's advocate role? Hahaha

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Is it returning? Small homes, yes. Transit and low car ownership, I am very skeptical. There is very little evidence to support that (in this country, or others). And even less transit construction to back that up.

Frankly, with the non-auto infrastructure we have in place now, I sincerely hope you are wrong. Because folks relying solely on U.S. transit and bicycles would represent the biggest step backward in U.S. worker productivity in 100 years. Talk about a lot of people wasting a lot of time. Devastating for the economy.

I don't know, in LA and Denver I had 2 and 1 mile walks (respectively) both ways worked into getting to work every day. Can't really walk here in Orlando for a number of reasons that don't actually have to do with the city but have to do with the coverage I have to provide to several sites. 4 miles of walking or biking a day can pretty much be maintenance exercise for someone who also wants to do outdoor things on the weekend. You have to make that up in a gym or outside of getting to/from work if you want to not get fat or die of heart disease etc.

I wonder how long it would take for productivity reclaimed from less fat, less sedentary citizens - and their attendant health problems - to outstrip the small amount of extra time walking/biking to the nearest transit stop/workplace that would (maybe) be eaten up at first.

(I do realize your point was referring to US infrastructure which sucks in general where it exists at all. I wasn't too intentionally missing your point.)

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Apparently RTD can get away with being pretty vague about exactly what we're voting for.

They are hardly alone in that regard though. Everything they did before fastracks came in faster and cheaper than they estimated; so costwise I'm reluctant to be so hard on them.

However, and instead of bringing up old complaints I'll frame this as optimistically as possible. Denver is VERY VERY lucky that Riverfront Park wasn't built on the other side of the river.

It's also physically impossible to under-criticize the agency for the pace of progress in fare payment options, and that is now a fixed point in time in the past. Whenever (if) it's convenient for all people to pay for their tickets at every station it will or will have been too late to not look like the backward, insignificant flyover town so many see it as. (though the last time I was in Denver a couple weeks ago it seemed like this was finally, finally improving. I was able to buy tickets at the convention center light rail stop with a credit card)

[OneWay]

How likely/soon could there be street cars running up and down 16th Street instead of buses given the US development?

Where is/are the most likely street car developments to take shape in Denver?

[bunt_q]

16th won't happen. We'll still need the mall shuttle, it serves a different purpose. 15th makes more sense.

Most likely is obviously east Colfax, since the studies are already chugging along.

See here: http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/736/documents/CCC/Colfax_Screen2_Presentation.pdf

[BG918]

Has 16th ever been considered for a streetcar? It makes more sense to run both east and westbound lines down the same street which is already setup for transit, plus it would likely be better for the retail businesses to have a streetcar (though not during construction). High frequency streetcars running up and down 16th would have more capacity than the MallRide buses, and combined with a downtown bus circulator on 15th/Wynkoop/19th/Broadway it would be a lot better than what we have now. That can last us until the underground rail connection is built beneath 17th connecting DUS to Civic Center..

[bobg]

A streetcar was considered in the DDP 16th st plan.

I remember some negatives discussed when looking at the streetcar were cost, logistics turning it around, the pain for retailers during the construction, the trees along 16th, and it being more intimidating than a bus to pedestrians. But I cannot remember the final reason given for DDP dismissing the streetcar (if one was).

[The Dirt]

I'd love to see a streetcar down 16th but it seems unlikely given the recent investment in new buses (that have yet to enter circulation) and all of the remediation work on the pavers. Also, given the investment into the 18/19th street circulator, it seems even less likely, given that the circulator should decrease capacity needs on the shuttle and make a streetcar on 16th less necessary from a rider capacity standpoint.

I'd actually rather see the circulator be replaced with a 17th street streetcar line (above or below grade) that can eventually tie into a converted Welton line and a Colfax line, granted both of those end up using streetcars and not a different technology.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Hmmmm... The way a certain someone you all know and respect described it in a recent podcast, it sounded like RTD purposefully underestimated the cost of what was supposed to be a fancier, mostly-underground terminal, in order to get voter approval from suburbanites who might be wary about seeing much more of their tax dollars invested in Denver than in their own neck of the woods. But I could be wrong.

That's not what I said. RTD didn't hide the fact that they were underfunding Union Station in the FasTracks budget. They simply chose to underfund it so that not as much of the overall budget would be spent in downtown Denver, in case of suburban voter backlash. I never accused RTD of lying.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

That's not what I said. RTD didn't hide the fact that they were underfunding Union Station in the FasTracks budget. They simply chose to underfund it so that not as much of the overall budget would be spent in downtown Denver, in case of suburban voter backlash. I never accused RTD of lying.

Oh. Well then I'm sorry I misrepresented you. I must have misheard you because that's how I took what you said and it's been in my head that way ever since.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

But this is highly unlikely considering the fact that I'm always right about everything. <crosses arms>

There's a first time for everything.

[Cirrus]

Hey, question about the Mall shuttles. I know they just manufactured new buses. Why, knowing that FasTracks would dump a bunch of new passengers downtown, didn't they build articulated ones?

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bobg

I remember some negatives of the streetcar discussed were cost, logistics turning it around, the pain for retailers during the construction, the trees along 16th, and it being more intimidating than a bus to pedestrians. But I cannot remember the final reason given for dismissing it (if one was).

I don't know if I'd say "more intimidating," but streetcars are definitely quieter. They can sneak up on you.

Another thing was probably overhead wires.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

That's not what I said. RTD didn't hide the fact that they were underfunding Union Station in the FasTracks budget. They simply chose to underfund it so that not as much of the overall budget would be spent in downtown Denver, in case of suburban voter backlash. I never accused RTD of lying.

I hope this doesn't mean I'm going to lose my title of president of your fan club.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Hey, question about the Mall shuttles. I know they just manufactured new buses. Why, knowing that FasTracks would dump a bunch of new passengers downtown, didn't they build articulated ones?

Maybe, they don't feel there will be a capacity issue?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Maybe, they don't feel there will be a capacity issue?

Or not enough of one to justify the cost of an even bigger custom-built ultra silent all-electric vehicle. Heck, pretty sure the new shuttle actually decreased capacity from ~150 to ~100.

Question though - is there a silent, zero emissions articulated bus, with the right shuttle-style door configuration, etc. - on the market? Considering RTD had basically one choice of bus manufacturer, I'd assume not.

[CharlesCO]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

16th won't happen. We'll still need the mall shuttle, it serves a different purpose. 15th makes more sense.

Most likely is obviously east Colfax, since the studies are already chugging along.

See here: http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/736/documents/CCC/Colfax_Screen2_Presentation.pdf

Why do they still show Colfax having two parking lanes? If they're going to do BRT or a streetcar, wouldn't it make sense to remove at least one of those lanes?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by CharlesCO

Why do they still show Colfax having two parking lanes? If they're going to do BRT or a streetcar, wouldn't it make sense to remove at least one of those lanes?

Hahaha. Somebody wasn't around for the Great Central Connector Debacle of 2000. We'll put a man on Mars before RTD tries to steal parking from small businesses again.

Maybe ask glowrock, I'd say he's the best qualified to answer your question.

[Cirrus]

I thought RTD designed and manufactured the mall shuttles themselves, precisely because there's nothing right on the market. If they're doing that anyway, how much extra would it really have been to design an artic?

Or are these new ones off the shelf?

[bobg]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I don't know if I'd say "more intimidating," but streetcars are definitely quieter. They can sneak up on you.

Another thing was probably overhead wires.

The overhead wires were part of the tree discussion. Getting rid of or seriously trimming the trees and replacing them with overhead wires did not sit well with the DDP since they were very concerned about the pedestrian experience.

As far as streetcars being more intimidating than buses I am mot sure where they came up with that. If a streetcar was coming right at me I would be just as freaked out as if a bus was coming right at me, or RTD's LRT for that matter. A pedestrian always loses when it comes to the physics game so almost anything should be somewhat intimidating. The noise could be a factor but the mall shuttles are not that loud unless the driver is making that dinging sound. Maybe because the streetcars are larger? Or maybe because Denverites are less familiar with streetcars? Not sure and that may be why I remembered it.