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  #6281  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
One thing we have here that is probably different than most of those cities, is the population of the downtown work force. And once you take into account how many of the downtown employees commute from the suburbs and the price of parking, the success of our LRT makes sense. Cities where the workforce is more spread out will probably not ever get to the numbers Calgary has currently. Just my $.02.
Yup. But that is something Calgary has done well. As much as urbanists hate it, the +15 system does a lot to foster a concentrated downtown culture, as does Stephan Avenue. It definitely helps that we are essentially a one business town, but Calgary has done a lot to create a strong downtown office culture. Concentrating employment in the downtown has led to transit success, which has reinforced the concentrated downtown. It is a virtuous cycle.

And here I am beating the dead horse again- spreading employment out is a horrible idea, unless it is industrial employment that does need space for warehousing, outdoor storage, etc. Cities should try and concentrate office employment as much as possible in their downtown, and if not, in concentrated areas that can be served by transit. I.e. cities should try and be San Francisco and not San Jose.
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  #6282  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 7:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
One thing we have here that is probably different than most of those cities, is the population of the downtown work force. And once you take into account how many of the downtown employees commute from the suburbs and the price of parking, the success of our LRT makes sense. Cities where the workforce is more spread out will probably not ever get to the numbers Calgary has currently. Just my $.02.
Americans tend to be more car-centric no matter how dense their cities are--even in Los Angeles. They love their cars more than we do. I am not over-generalizing; the pattern is all too true when comparing cities. If there is a city in the US with a downtown job population similar to those of Calgary, I can guarantee that the ridership of this hypothetical city will not match Calgary's. What Americans need to learn about Calgary's transit system is their attitude towards public transit.
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  #6283  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
One thing we have here that is probably different than most of those cities, is the population of the downtown work force. And once you take into account how many of the downtown employees commute from the suburbs and the price of parking, the success of our LRT makes sense. Cities where the workforce is more spread out will probably not ever get to the numbers Calgary has currently. Just my $.02.
Bang on. And you only have to look north about 280km to see an excellent example of that. Similar sized cities in a similar geopolitical setting. All things being equal the ridership data should be similar (after taking into account system size) but it is not. And the difference lies in your reasoning.
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  #6284  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by RicoLance21 View Post
Americans tend to be more car-centric no matter how dense their cities are--even in Los Angeles. They love their cars more than we do. I am not over-generalizing; the pattern is all too true when comparing cities. If there is a city in the US with a downtown job population similar to those of Calgary, I can guarantee that the ridership of this hypothetical city will not match Calgary's. What Americans need to learn about Calgary's transit system is their attitude towards public transit.
Calgary has a very strong car culture as well. I bet that if the city removed the cap on parking and just left it up to the market to determine how much parking we have and how much it costs, transit ridership #s would plummet! Traffic would also be completely FUBAR'd though lol.
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  #6285  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lubicon View Post
Bang on. And you only have to look north about 280km to see an excellent example of that. Similar sized cities in a similar geopolitical setting. All things being equal the ridership data should be similar (after taking into account system size) but it is not. And the difference lies in your reasoning.
Great point, except Edmonton has higher transit ridership than Calgary. Morning-rush-hour-commute-to-work-in-the-downtown it does not, but overall, they are comparable or better, depending on the reporting method used. We're like a hockey team with the best record of power play goal percentage*; it's a good accomplishment, but we're deluding ourselves to think that it is the entire game.

Calgary does very well with people who are travelling to and from work (about 20% of all travel), who are doing so in the peak periods (around 70% of work trips) to the CBD (about 25% of all jobs, with another 5% in the Beltline). You multiply it out, it's 20%*70%*30%=4.2% of all travel. Some of that remaining 95.8% we're pretty good at; offpeak CBD workers, workers and students to the universities, people to major sporting/entertainment events. Most of it, we're pretty terrible, frankly. Better than San Antonio, but not as good as other Canadian cities, much less cities in other parts of the world.

* The Flames were 9th for PP% this season, ahead of Chicago, LA and Boston. But 0.1% back from the Oilers. The Capitals were #1 this season.
     
     
  #6286  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby View Post
Great point, except Edmonton has higher transit ridership than Calgary. Morning-rush-hour-commute-to-work-in-the-downtown it does not, but overall, they are comparable or better, depending on the reporting method used. We're like a hockey team with the best record of power play goal percentage*; it's a good accomplishment, but we're deluding ourselves to think that it is the entire game.

Calgary does very well with people who are travelling to and from work (about 20% of all travel), who are doing so in the peak periods (around 70% of work trips) to the CBD (about 25% of all jobs, with another 5% in the Beltline). You multiply it out, it's 20%*70%*30%=4.2% of all travel. Some of that remaining 95.8% we're pretty good at; offpeak CBD workers, workers and students to the universities, people to major sporting/entertainment events. Most of it, we're pretty terrible, frankly. Better than San Antonio, but not as good as other Canadian cities, much less cities in other parts of the world.

* The Flames were 9th for PP% this season, ahead of Chicago, LA and Boston. But 0.1% back from the Oilers. The Capitals were #1 this season.
This is where your argument fails. This is 20% of all trips, but not all travel periods. Transportation planners count a trip where you make any stop for any purpose. Stopping at the bank on the way home counts as two trips, not one. A Saturday errand schedule counts for like 10 trips. These are called trip-chaining, and planners count each individual one as a trip. So while commuting only accounts for 20% of all "trips", it is a much higher percentage of all travel periods.

Think about this. Is commuting only 1/5 of all the trips you take? Do you take 50 individual trips per week (10 are commutes)?
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  #6287  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
Calgary has a very strong car culture as well. I bet that if the city removed the cap on parking and just left it up to the market to determine how much parking we have and how much it costs, transit ridership #s would plummet! Traffic would also be completely FUBAR'd though lol.
You're absolutely correct, on all points.

I'm one of the few people I know that live a commuter lifestyle (ie: suburbanite) but choose to take transit no matter what. I'm just not interested in rush hour traffic in any situation, never have been, never will be. To me driving is something that should be an enjoyable activity. Plus I love the "free time" the train gives me, to read, watch my iPod, whatever. However, there's no question in my mind that people would gladly switch back to driving if parking suddenly became affordable. At least based on what I hear people saying. And then they'd complain to the city that we need many more roads/lanes/bridges.
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  #6288  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2013, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby View Post
Great point, except Edmonton has higher transit ridership than Calgary. Morning-rush-hour-commute-to-work-in-the-downtown it does not, but overall, they are comparable or better, depending on the reporting method used.
This is all nonsense- you're pulling numbers out of your 🞵🞵🞵. Calgary ABSOLUTELY has, by North American standards, an incredibly high rate of transit ridership and by post-WW2 city standards in particular, we're not just good, we're miraculous.

Go to Portland and ride the MAX for a while and then come back and try the C-Train and report back on what you witness not only with regard to how crowded the trains are and also note the frequency of service. In Portland you have, incredibly, 15 minute headways at 8 in the morning on a WEEKDAY. Calgary's not paradise but we're doing a hell of a lot of stuff right.

Incidentally the same metric you criticise for measuring Calgary's transit success- which trounces Edmonton's which belongs nowhere in this discussion- is the same as those other cities use. It's a standard because it's standardized. That's how we make comparisons.

Fusilli I'd correct one thing that you said earlier- Calgary beats transit ridership rate in every US city except NYC. You mentioned Chicago etc- Calgary beats them. NA top 6 are NYC, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary.
     
     
  #6289  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgarian View Post
Calgary has a very strong car culture as well. I bet that if the city removed the cap on parking and just left it up to the market to determine how much parking we have and how much it costs, transit ridership #s would plummet! Traffic would also be completely FUBAR'd though lol.
I am not too sure about caps on parking in the US. Do other cities like Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa and Vancouver have caps on parking too? Does any of the American cities have a cap on parking--maybe San Francisco?
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Last edited by RicoLance21; Jun 8, 2013 at 4:44 PM.
     
     
  #6290  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 1:44 AM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
This is where your argument fails. This is 20% of all trips, but not all travel periods. Transportation planners count a trip where you make any stop for any purpose. Stopping at the bank on the way home counts as two trips, not one. A Saturday errand schedule counts for like 10 trips. These are called trip-chaining, and planners count each individual one as a trip. So while commuting only accounts for 20% of all "trips", it is a much higher percentage of all travel periods.

Think about this. Is commuting only 1/5 of all the trips you take? Do you take 50 individual trips per week (10 are commutes)?
Yes, a trip is defined as the travel between two stops. You are correct. Perhaps I should have been clearer that I was using trips as my metric, not tours, or better yet, PKT. The point stands. Should we not have a transit system that can serve people who stop off at the bank on the way home from work? (Note that if they make both the trip to the bank and the trip home by transit, they would both count as transit trips.) Should we not aspire to have a transit system that can serve people for some of the errands they run, even if it is as multiple chained trips as part of a single tour?

Sure, commuting is more than 20% of my trips. What percentage do you suppose it is of the trips made by a stay-at-home parent, or a retired senior, or a student? Pretty close to 0%. Not all Calgarians are workers; about 61% work, which is staggeringly high for North America. But that still leaves 39% of the population. I think Calgary Transit should try to meet their needs as well.

I just don't see the point in sitting back and saying "we were able to pick 40% of the low hanging fruit; these other guys only picked 30%; we're awesome".
     
     
  #6291  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 2:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick View Post
This is all nonsense- you're pulling numbers out of your 🞵🞵🞵. Calgary ABSOLUTELY has, by North American standards, an incredibly high rate of transit ridership and by post-WW2 city standards in particular, we're not just good, we're miraculous.

Go to Portland and ride the MAX for a while and then come back and try the C-Train and report back on what you witness not only with regard to how crowded the trains are and also note the frequency of service. In Portland you have, incredibly, 15 minute headways at 8 in the morning on a WEEKDAY. Calgary's not paradise but we're doing a hell of a lot of stuff right.

Incidentally the same metric you criticise for measuring Calgary's transit success- which trounces Edmonton's which belongs nowhere in this discussion- is the same as those other cities use. It's a standard because it's standardized. That's how we make comparisons.

Fusilli I'd correct one thing that you said earlier- Calgary beats transit ridership rate in every US city except NYC. You mentioned Chicago etc- Calgary beats them. NA top 6 are NYC, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary.
Calgary's very good in certain metrics for North America. I'm not sure I ever said otherwise. I've certainly ridden Portland's transit system; I'm not sure what they have to do with anything. I'm just pointing out that doing well at the easiest fraction of the transportation market is not the be-all and end-all of measures. I'm pretty sure Calgary Transit is good enough that it can handle someone saying it is not "miraculous", etc.

My source was the 2010 Urban Transportation Indicators survey from the Transport Association of Canada, exhibit 5.4, on page 47 of the PDF (page 33 of the report). 24 hour mode share in Established Urban Area (i.e. get rid of the outlying farmland). Calgary's at 8%, behind Edmonton's 9% and well behind the other large and mid-sized cities.

Other data I've looked at since then contradict this; Calgary seems consistently comparable or slightly higher than Edmonton. The 2006 Census Travel To Work data has us at 16.8% and Edmonton at 12.8%. Of course, if this is "trouncing" and we shouldn't even talk about them, I don't even want to think about what Ottawa (21.8%), Vancouver (25.1%), Toronto (34.1%) or Montreal (34.4%) are doing to us. But as I've said, I don't like Travel To Work as the primary measure of transit's efficiency; sure, it's standardized, but just because it's standard doesn't mean it's good. Baseball spent 75 years using statistics that were standard like RBI, but not strongly related to how well players performed.

Looking at the straight trips per capita number, in 2011, Calgary had 148.5 million trips for a population of 1,096,833 (city only). I think the best comparison up north is Edmonton+St.Albert+Strathcona, which has a combined population of 966,157 and 128.4+1.3+2.3 million trips respectively. (Calgary and Edmonton are in the APTA report, page 30; St Albert and Strathcona from their websites). That's 135.4 trips per capita for Calgary, and 136.6 for Edmonton+St.Albert+Strathcona. Certainly comparable, and I think perhaps even higher in Edmonton. (Note that if you use the strict city definitions, Edmonton is 158.1 trips per capita, but as I said, that's not a fair comparison.)

I don't know what source you're using, but if it's this old post on SSP, beware that it simply doesn't have Edmonton numbers. Also be aware that US ridership has spiked in some markets; San Francisco is up to 132 trips per capita, and Washington up to 121.

So we're either 5th or 6th out of the 6 major Canadian cities -- and there's a big gap up to #4. Forgive me if the champagne is still on ice.
     
     
  #6292  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 2:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Rusty van Reddick View Post

Fusilli I'd correct one thing that you said earlier- Calgary beats transit ridership rate in every US city except NYC. You mentioned Chicago etc- Calgary beats them. NA top 6 are NYC, Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary.
Good to know.
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  #6293  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2013, 3:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby View Post
Yes, a trip is defined as the travel between two stops. You are correct. Perhaps I should have been clearer that I was using trips as my metric, not tours, or better yet, PKT. The point stands. Should we not have a transit system that can serve people who stop off at the bank on the way home from work? (Note that if they make both the trip to the bank and the trip home by transit, they would both count as transit trips.) Should we not aspire to have a transit system that can serve people for some of the errands they run, even if it is as multiple chained trips as part of a single tour?

Sure, commuting is more than 20% of my trips. What percentage do you suppose it is of the trips made by a stay-at-home parent, or a retired senior, or a student? Pretty close to 0%. Not all Calgarians are workers; about 61% work, which is staggeringly high for North America. But that still leaves 39% of the population. I think Calgary Transit should try to meet their needs as well.

I just don't see the point in sitting back and saying "we were able to pick 40% of the low hanging fruit; these other guys only picked 30%; we're awesome".
I agree, we need to work more on transit for non-work trips. But to do this, oddly, we have to focus on work trips. Because many non-work trips are chained with work trips, connecting people to work helps achieve this.

Let me put it this way- we can group most activities into three broad categories based on the characteristics of the activity:

Work (or school) trips: These trips are necessary (you need them to survive), regular (happens at the same time each day), frequent (happens often), time constrained (you usually can't radically change your work hours), location constrained (you can't easily change job locations), duration constrained (you can't change how long you work each day), participant constrained (only one family member can go to work at your job- i.e. your teenage child can't fill in for you at work)
Non-work essential trips- These trips are necessary, but vary in every other aspect. Grocery shopping, going to the bank and doctor's visits would fit into this category. Doctor's visits are regular, but very infrequent for most, but have a set time and location (making transit almost impossible to serve them- Carsharing participants I interviewed in Forest Lawn used carshares a lot for doctor's visits).
Non-work non-essential trips- Essentially "lesiure" trips- going out to eat, going to the mall for non-essential goods, etc. These trips are not necessary, and typically have a lot of irregularity in their locations, times and durations.

So what you have is a single activity that is fairly frequent, fairly regular and fairly constrained in terms of time and duration, which is the commute. So, the household travel pattern is basically then built around this trip. People will adjust their grocery shopping, other errands, leisure trips, etc around this. Many households will chain minor errands with the commute trip and then do major errands on weekends. You will notice those who take transit end up doing more errands on weekends because stopping to pick up something from the grocery store on the train is just that much harder (but not impossible). As well for transit users, will find that for non-essential trips, the activity location, frequency and time are heavily influenced by transit availability.

What you find with households without a dominant trip (i.e. Seniors) is that everything becomes incredibly easy to plan around. You can grocery shop whenever you want, so working around a bus that comes every 45 minutes is no problem. Doing so when you have only a few hours at night after work to do so is an entirely different matter altogether.

My beef with transportation engineers is that they don't talk about any of the things I just mentioned above, which is why I think the whole field is pretty much pseudo-science.

So yeah, I did my Masters Thesis on this, so I get carried away.
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  #6294  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 3:58 PM
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Does anyone know if a new request for proposal has been sent out for the Calgary Transit electronic fare collection system (Connect)?
     
     
  #6295  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 5:52 PM
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I would like to see more bus lanes in the city. they don't work everywhere (politically or justifiably for the usage) but some areas are no-brainers.

I would guess that during peak hours, 4th Street SW has more riders on the 3 than in personal autos. Every bus for about 2 - 3 hours is standing room only and they come every 5 minutes. It especially evident when they have closed down several lanes for construction purposes for a block or two so 4th is effectively 1 lane in areas.

I am aware that Elbow is likely to get additional capacity with bendy-buses soon, but that really just accentuates the issue. instead of 90 its now 120 per bus.

The pattern is the same everyday. A line up of 20 cars, A bus with 90 people on it, 20 cars, bus with 90 people....

Has Calgary Transit ever reviewed a lane on 4th or Elbow? I wish ridership and road usage data was easier to come by, it would be interesting to see if my observations on usage are as clear-cut as it seems.
     
     
  #6296  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 5:56 PM
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I would like to see more bus lanes in the city. they don't work everywhere (politically or justifiably for the usage) but some areas are no-brainers.

I would guess that during peak hours, 4th Street SW has more riders on the 3 than in personal autos. Every bus for about 2 - 3 hours is standing room only and they come every 5 minutes. It especially evident when they have closed down several lanes for construction purposes for a block or two so 4th is effectively 1 lane in areas.

I am aware that Elbow is likely to get additional capacity with bendy-buses soon, but that really just accentuates the issue. instead of 90 its now 120 per bus.

The pattern is the same everyday. A line up of 20 cars, A bus with 90 people on it, 20 cars, bus with 90 people....

Has Calgary Transit ever reviewed a lane on 4th or Elbow? I wish ridership and road usage data was easier to come by, it would be interesting to see if my observations on usage are as clear-cut as it seems.
They are looking at a limited stop service to replicate the 3 on Elbow drive. They are not looking at dedicated lanes right now. Perhaps some queue jumps and other measures can be implemented though.
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  #6297  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 6:35 PM
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They are looking at a limited stop service to replicate the 3 on Elbow drive. They are not looking at dedicated lanes right now. Perhaps some queue jumps and other measures can be implemented though.
That's right. That was your idea you submitted to them, correct?
     
     
  #6298  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2013, 7:03 PM
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I'm not sure any street is busy enough to need dedicated lanes at this point, but queue jumps and maybe dedicated lanes through bottlenecks would help and be cheaper (hopefully)
     
     
  #6299  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2013, 12:18 AM
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Interesting Report Coming to T&T Meeting next week

Summary of Cost-Benet Analysis for 10-year Rapid Transit Corridors

Report Determines Bang for the Buck on 8 different factors normalized by capitol cost per rider (2019): Operating Cost, Transit Time Savings, Auto Time Savings, Transit Service Area, Support for TOD Development, Support for Asset Management, Environmental Benefit, Socio-economic Benefit.

Rank of Rapid Transit Corridors

Centre Street - 1
South West Transitway - 2
South Cross Town - 3
17th Ave SE Transit Way - 4
North Cross Town - 5
South East Transit Way - tied for 6th
West Campus Mobility - Tied for 6th

Going to be interesting the affects of this report.
     
     
  #6300  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2013, 1:19 AM
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That's right. That was your idea you submitted to them, correct?
It was an example of our idea to look at high ridership current routes that could be "upgraded" to limited stop service.
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