Highway 174

[S-Man]

Oh, and the reason the N-S LRT shouldn't have been built is because of the downtown section running on roads, not because it terminated in Barrhaven. I'd rather have 1st phase LRT running in conjunction with O-Train and the Barrhaven Transitway than what was proposed for 2009.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You do realize that tolling is another step away progressive taxation as tolling has nothing to do with the ability to pay. The impact of widespread tolling will greatly limit the mobility of citizens who have modest incomes. Furthermore, tolling just gives another method for government (or private industry) to extract money from us. It is very difficult to hold politicians accountable for user fees to the same degree as taxation rates.

I think we should think very carefully before repeating history of a 100 years ago when road tolling was common and it did impact mobility in those days. There are some social and economic consequences that we may not fully be able to predict. But it could dramatically impact the sale of vehicles (therefore the auto industry) and ghettoize the poor much more than today.

I am not in favour of grand schemes to implement widespread user fees for the use of public roads.

We could get this tread way off topic pretty quickly getting into debates about the merits of tolling. But, I will point out the following:

1) Operating a car is expensive and inherently requires the ability to pay. No one is suggesting we subsidize gas to make it more progressive, so why should the roads be subsidized?

2) According to the 2012 City Budget, road maintenance costs were $134 million. This is about 6% of the total city budget. Shifting road maintenance costs to be paid for by tolls should in theory result in a 6% property tax cut.

3) There is traffic congestion in Ottawa: that's why we're planning on building an LRT system and widening the Queensway, after all. Free use of roads encourages congestion. It may be more progressive, but it makes life worse for everyone when they're stuck in traffic.

4) Road pricing would encourage transit use and reduce the subsidy required for transit systems since they would be on a more level competitive playing field with private vehicles.

There's a good argument for road pricing in this Maclean's article from January 2011: http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/01/11/stuck-in-traffic/

[DubberDom]

I simply threw out the toll suggestion for all roads entering Ottawa (ie from Rockland and elsewhere). It's not going to happen, but the city needs a big stick in order to go to neighbouring municipalities and demand some sort of Infrastructure Levy. People can't live outside Ottawa and then steal the benefits of our city whenever it suits them.

The reverse scenario (Tolls coming into Rockland) is not true, since Rockland would gladly welcome anybody going into its town and spending a couple of bucks at the local Home Hardware and restaurant. Rockland needs Ottawa, the reverse is not true... plus it would only be a tax on their own citizens anyway

Since the 17 was downloaded, the Province invested in 4-laning the 416, 417 and Hwy 7, all south and west of the city... the east got shafted (or won depending on your point of view I guess)

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by DubberDom

I simply threw out the toll suggestion for all roads entering Ottawa (ie from Rockland and elsewhere). It's not going to happen, but the city needs a big stick in order to go to neighbouring municipalities and demand some sort of Infrastructure Levy. People can't live outside Ottawa and then steal the benefits of our city whenever it suits them.

The reverse scenario (Tolls coming into Rockland) is not true, since Rockland would gladly welcome anybody going into its town and spending a couple of bucks at the local Home Hardware and restaurant. Rockland needs Ottawa, the reverse is not true... plus it would only be a tax on their own citizens anyway

Since the 17 was downloaded, the Province invested in 4-laning the 416, 417 and Hwy 7, all south and west of the city... the east got shafted (or won depending on your point of view I guess)

The Province needs to upload that part of 17/174 and eliminate the municipal wars. (Old 16 and 31 were more reasonable as traffic was lower at the boundary anyway).

[J.OT13]

Off topic, but here is my last 2 cents on the N/S LRT; it was flawed for various reasons. From the lack of a tunnel, the low capacity (what was it, 30m?) and the fact that it served what was at the time a fairly low populated area of the city. Although there is something to be said about planning for the future, it would have sufficed to only reserve the land for future rail service.

I don't think price was really an issue, although the Ken Grays of the world point out that the N/S was cancelled due to price, but yet it was half the price of the new E/W line. Of course they don't mention that the old plan was the classic tram-lrt hybrid running on streets in the city and crossing roads everywhere else as opposed to the new plan that is to be built as more of a true rapid transit system with capacity coming close to a full subway/metro system.

I agree that E/W should have been first planned and built, but after all our investments in the N/S, we should have just got it over with.

As for Rockland; they are no different from other suburbs such as the ones around Montreal and Toronto who piggy back on the big city.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Absolutely. We can even toll every road in the city: http://www.skymetercorp.com/transport-sectors/roads.html.

(I'm serious, BTW. Roads should be a user-paid service.)

No , actually , you can't .
If you want to toll absolutely every road in the region that enters the city , you're going to find yourself out of a job very quickly if you're a politician . We're talking about people here , not numbers on a computer screen . How are you going to tell Joe Farmer that he has to pay a toll on a road he's been using for the entirety of his life despite the fact that nothing has changed from his perspective ?
Secondly , they ARE user-pay ... where do you think the money comes from and who is it that you think doesn't use roads ? Even if you don't own a car , you still use those roads every day . Whether it's by taking a bus , riding your bicycle , or simply walking , you rely on those roads to get the things you want to the places you want them to be . Every single person uses those roads in some way or another and they've all already paid for them in the first place through their taxes . All you'd be doing is adding another expense for people to worry about .

[Cre47]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

The Province needs to upload that part of 17/174 and eliminate the municipal wars. (Old 16 and 31 were more reasonable as traffic was lower at the boundary anyway).

And maybe the sinkhole would have never happened without the downloading. Though just speculating.

[RTWAP]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just remember all the opposition of the North-South LRT project as the train to nowhere. If we can't build a train to Barrhaven, how could we ever build a train to Rockland?

Just a reminder, the reason we didn't build a train to Barrhaven was that it would have been slower than the bus to Barrhaven.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by Spocket

No , actually , you can't .
If you want to toll absolutely every road in the region that enters the city , you're going to find yourself out of a job very quickly if you're a politician . We're talking about people here , not numbers on a computer screen . How are you going to tell Joe Farmer that he has to pay a toll on a road he's been using for the entirety of his life despite the fact that nothing has changed from his perspective ?
Secondly , they ARE user-pay ... where do you think the money comes from and who is it that you think doesn't use roads ? Even if you don't own a car , you still use those roads every day . Whether it's by taking a bus , riding your bicycle , or simply walking , you rely on those roads to get the things you want to the places you want them to be . Every single person uses those roads in some way or another and they've all already paid for them in the first place through their taxes . All you'd be doing is adding another expense for people to worry about .

Over 100 years ago, most major Ottawa area roads had been taken over by private enterprise who would "macadamize" (crushed stone and tar) them and set up toll gates. It was practically impossible to get in or out of town or use a bridge without paying a toll.
Then, the City took them over as well as other private enterprise such as Ottawa Hydro (owned by Ahearn and Soper, same as the streetcar owners) and started charging the costs and maintenance of roads to taxpayers.

Since the Lansdowne Park court decision, there is nothing preventing the City to go into partnership with private enterprise to help pay for its structures while providing means of a profitable operation for their business partners.
Just this morning, the Shefford Park complex and its J.B.Potvin arena is being negotiated into such a partnership by the Finance and Urban Development Committee.
You pay for water, you pay for sewage, you pay for parking....a user-fee for using city roads is not improbable and very likely in the future.

Everyone pay school taxes..and parents still have to pay for supplies and many other student related expenses.
All universities are subsidized by governments and students still have to pay ever increasing fees.
It would not be politically incorrect to reduce property taxes and impose a user fee for using roads. The rational would be that public transportation (think LRT) is better, cheaper and faster as well as being more efficient since there would presumably be less cars on the roads.

[waterloowarrior]

http://ottawa.ca/en/notice-round-1-public-open-houses

Notice of Round #1 of Public Open Houses
Tuesday, February 5, 2013 (Cumberland)

Cumberland Lions Club, Maple Hall
2552 Old Montreal Road, Cumberland
6:30 to 9pm, presentation at 7:00

Wednesday, February 6, 2013 (Orléans)

Sir Wilfrid Laurier Secondary School, Cafeteria
1515 Tenth Line Road, Orléans
6:30 to 9pm, presentation at 7:00

Thursday, February 7, 2013 (Rockland)

City Hall, Council boardroom
1560 Laurier Street, Rockland
6:30 to 9pm, presentation at 7:00

The United Counties of Prescott and Russell in partnership with the City of Ottawa are undertaking a Class Environmental Assessment (EA) study for the Ottawa Road 174 and Prescott-Russell County Road 17 corridor from Highway 417 to County Road 8 (Landry Road). This study will consider improvements to the existing OR 174-CR 17 corridor, improvements to other existing roads and the construction of new roads in the Study Area illustrated below. This Study is being carried out in accordance with the requirements for a Schedule ‘C’ project under the Municipal Class Environmental Assessment (2007, 2011).



The purpose of the first round of public open houses is to:

Introduce the project;
Review the Project Need and Existing Conditions;
Consult on the proposed evaluation criteria;
Identify the alternative solutions; and
Review the evaluation of alternative solutions.
This is the first of three rounds of public consultation that will be held during the course of the study to review and discuss the project with the study team and solicit feedback.

[Deez]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

http://ottawa.ca/en/notice-round-1-public-open-houses

Notice of Round #1 of Public Open Houses
Tuesday, February 5, 2013 (Cumberland)

Cumberland Lions Club, Maple Hall
2552 Old Montreal Road, Cumberland
6:30 to 9pm, presentation at 7:00

Wednesday, February 6, 2013 (Orléans)

Sir Wilfrid Laurier Secondary School, Cafeteria
1515 Tenth Line Road, Orléans
6:30 to 9pm, presentation at 7:00

Thursday, February 7, 2013 (Rockland)

City Hall, Council boardroom
1560 Laurier Street, Rockland
6:30 to 9pm, presentation at 7:00

The United Counties of Prescott and Russell in partnership with the City of Ottawa are undertaking a Class Environmental Assessment (EA) study for the Ottawa Road 174 and Prescott-Russell County Road 17 corridor from Highway 417 to County Road 8 (Landry Road). This study will consider improvements to the existing OR 174-CR 17 corridor, improvements to other existing roads and the construction of new roads in the Study Area illustrated below. This Study is being carried out in accordance with the requirements for a Schedule ‘C’ project under the Municipal Class Environmental Assessment (2007, 2011).



The purpose of the first round of public open houses is to:

Introduce the project;
Review the Project Need and Existing Conditions;
Consult on the proposed evaluation criteria;
Identify the alternative solutions; and
Review the evaluation of alternative solutions.
This is the first of three rounds of public consultation that will be held during the course of the study to review and discuss the project with the study team and solicit feedback.

No downtown Ottawa consultation? If/when built, this will likely be the largest road building project that the city has ever undertaken. Given that a good chunk of the cost will subsidize Rockland commuters, this project is clearly of interest to more than just east end residents.

[waterloowarrior]

open house 1 display boards
http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-consultations/transportation/round-1-public-open-houses

[waterloowarrior]

The toll of two municipalities
http://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/the-toll-of-two-municipalities-1.1304060#ixzz2UoZnfqej
Councillor Stephen Blais hopes to set up an electronic toll for non-Ottawa residents at Canaan Rd. where highway 17 turns into highway 174.

Getting stuck in the morning rush could cost commuters living outside of Ottawa some cash.

Traffic studies show approximately 9,200 vehicles travel westbound through the Orleans split, every morning. Of that about 20 per cent – or 2,200 vehicles – pass through the border of Clarence-Rockland and Ottawa.

“They're not paying property taxes and they're not paying a dime to upkeep this road and I want to change that,” says east-end councillor Stephen Blais.

Blais says highway 174 is an Ottawa road, its costs and traffic woes borne by city taxpayers. He wants to set up an electronic toll to charge outsiders up to five dollars a day.

“We choose to live out here to get away from all the craziness, but we shouldn't have to pay for it,” says one Rockland commuter.

Orleans residents say they’d support the idea if it helps alleviate traffic.

“We all share the road so we should all share the cost as well,” says Matt Schwartz.

The highway was downloaded by the Ontario government to the municipalities more than 15 years ago. Separated by Canaan Rd. highway 174 belongs to the city of Ottawa. On the other side, highway 17 is the responsibility of the United Counties of Prescott and Russell.

With the majority of traffic heading into Ottawa in the mornings, Blais says the revenues could go a long way in funding city transit projects and highway 174 improvements.

A toll road would still have to pass the test at Ottawa city council and the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

[B]......
With the majority of traffic heading into Ottawa in the mornings, Blais says the revenues could go a long way in funding city transit projects and highway 174 improvements.
A toll road would still have to pass the test at Ottawa city council and the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.

Here's one proposal I hope gets filed away to never see the light of day. Instead of trying to get more money, how about trying to SAVE some money. Stop spending money that doesn't exist. Live within the means of the city budget.

Creating one toll booth will just open the Pandora's box to many, many, many more. And not just for vehicular traffic.

[toaster]

This is ridiculous. Hell, lets just not let any tourists into Ottawa at all without paying a 100 fee to use our roads and sidewalks. The commuters are working in Ottawa, shopping, eating lunch, helping businesses.

[waterloowarrior]

The 174's AADT is 21,318*....busier than the 417 west of Highway 7 and east of Embrun... and busier than Highway 7 to Carleton Place (about 17k)

*http://www.tac-atc.ca/english/annualconference/tac2012/docs/session10/smith.pdf

You can see for the peak period volume that without Rockland traffic the 174 would not need to be widened (except perhaps to Blair or Montreal)... why should Ottawa taxpayers pay hundreds of millions of dollars in capital costs for widening/extended and increased operating costs without a cent coming from Rockland?

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-consultations/transportation/round-1-public-open-houses

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

You can see for the peak period volume that without Rockland traffic the 174 would not need to be widened (except perhaps to Blair or Montreal)... why should Ottawa taxpayers pay hundreds of millions of dollars in capital costs for widening/extended and increased operating costs without a cent coming from Rockland?
http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-consultations/transportation/round-1-public-open-houses

I just looked at google maps. Assuming a toll booth was put around Canaan Road, there are multiple routes any commuter could take to avoid the booth and still end up on the 174.

Toll booths are not the answer. People will seek out and purchase an airfare that might be as little as $5.00 difference between a direct flight or a connection. They'll save the $5.00 and take the connection. Same principle applies here. They will seek another route to bypass the toll booth. The problem won't go away, it will just be re-routed.

[eemy]

What should really happen is 174 should be uploaded to the province. The whole premise of downloading all these highways was that they were primarily being used as local roads. That is clearly not the case with 174.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

What should really happen is 174 should be uploaded to the province. The whole premise of downloading all these highways was that they were primarily being used as local roads. That is clearly not the case with 174.

+1 Agree

[NOWINYOW]

There's a wikipedia page for 174. According to that page, in 2008 the city was offered 80 million to twin the road from Trimm Rd to Rockland. The city didn't accept the money, thereby delaying its construction.

The city believed the road wouldn't benefit Ottawa. It could also be possible the city wanted to secure funding for other projects it deemed as more urgent.

When the federal infrastructure give-away funding program was wrapping up, there was still money available but not targeted for any projects. Too bad the city didn't apply then at a later date for the funding, after LRT etc had been approved. If I remember correctly, the federal infrastructure build fund would support "shovel-ready" projects only.

Is 174 widening from Trimm road east "shovel-ready"? Or do environmental studies and other factors need to be completed before any construction to widen?

I agree, it is a road that goes beyond servicing just Ottawa.