Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[SLC Projects]

Yes Soda Row isn't much now and over all Daybreak does lack retail, but check out this Long term map. http://www.bestsaltlakehomes.com/new-construction/daybreak-map.htm
Check out the Town Center. Soda Row is the tiny little village center in the yellow.

[jimmycdii]

Originally Posted by (Eco)nomy_404

The point I was trying to make was that Daybreak is far from being the typical suburb in terms of density, walkability, and land management. I was not trying to compare to SLC overall, just in terms of density and residential unit options that would be typical in an SLC neighborhood. Daybreak is a hybrid between suburb and urban neighborhood, that was my point.

I completely agree; Daybreak is far and away better than the typical suburb. But, in my opinion, a typical suburb is the worst kind of development. So being better than the worst options is… less bad?

The frustrating thing to me is that we know what a great, medium density city should look like. When I think of one I think of many parts of Boston, some of NYC's outer boroughs, and many major cities in Europe. Or, even just some of the better parts of SLC.

And then I walk around Daybreak and I see basically none of those things. And I see a city that will have a hard time getting them; most streets in Daybreak will have a hard time accommodating buses, for example. And whole neighborhoods that are finished are a very long time away from getting corner stores. And why was TRAX built with a park and ride model, and why weren't homes built near the station first?

My point is that I don't see why Daybreak didn't try to replicate Boston's North End (or even Back Bay), rather than just trying to be better than the rest of suburban hell?!? (I know, economics mostly, and codes, etc. But still.)

I'm also not sure how much better it actually is; my parents live in Cedar Hills, which is one of the worst suburban places in the world I've ever been. Truly, it's awful.

But their walks score was actually higher than many of the spots I tested (a few months ago, via the walk score app) in Daybreak. I've had similar experiences at friends homes in Draper, American Fork and other places that look a lot worse than Daybreak.

I know, Daybreak will get better over time. The long term vision should be exciting. But it's still sprawl. I guess I just don't think we should be building suburbs at all. I know it's not this simple, but we should be doing infill almost exclusively.

[jimmycdii]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

From Daybreak, where can you realistically get within an hour? Residential...a highway...a park...maybe a school and then what? And don't get me wrong, I understand that's not Daybreak's fault.

Yeah, agreed. I can walk from my home near pioneer park all the way to the U and it's a pretty interesting walk the whole way. If I walk that far in Daybreak I'm out in the middle of nowhere.

[jimmycdii]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

but Daybreak really has a solid foundation going for itself. And when you compare Daybreak with somewhere like the newer areas of southern Draper of northern Lehi, with its vast, soulless arrays of identical stucco-clad dwellings (I hesitate to call them "homes"), you begin to better appreciate for what Kennecott has done to the area.

Yeah, I completely agree with this. I often come down hard on Daybreak in conversations (too hard, probably) because I know a lot of people who see it as an ideal end point/target design for neighborhood development and I don't.

But over time I really do think it'll be very cool. On the other hand, I see places like my parents neighborhood in Cedar Hills and similar stucco neighborhoods as never really overcoming their design flaws.

[Sight-Seer]

Speaking of imitative architecture, the design of the new Philadelphia Temple was rejected by one city commissioner because it is "too literal" in its classicism and imitative of its neighboring buildings. What he doesn't know is that it mostly imitates other Mormon temples. The new temple is a somewhat jarring hodgepodge of styles which barely fit together. The steeples are reminiscent of Federalist-era architecture. The main structure imitates older temples like the Salt Lake Temple, which warped classical European architecture into something very Mormon. Below is my 3D model of the Philadelpia Temple which I would like to post to Google Earth.

[H4vok]

Boyer Project:





Federal Courthouse:
The building is definitely looking better the more fins they put on.


Federal Courthouse by H4vok_13, on Flickr

[H4vok]

Zims

Zim's Building by H4vok_13, on Flickr

[(Eco)nomy_404]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

It's walkable in the most basic sense ... which is better than a great deal of Salt Lake's suburbs. But it's still disconnected in a way - as is pretty much every subdivision. What I mean is that there just isn't much retail or commercial development outside Daybreak - so, ultimately, you have a decent planned neighborhood in a sea of sprawl. It's a good development, don't get me wrong, unfortunately, the area around Daybreak is not developing with any conformity and that hinders the potential of this area because it's still limited beyond its borders.

There is no cohesiveness in that area of the city.

You know, to me, urban living goes beyond just the density of each development. Granted, the homes are built in a way where they're far more compact than a typical subdivision - on the other hand, as already mentioned, it still lacks complete walkability beyond certain areas. I mean, I get that is something that even areas of Salt Lake struggle with, but realistically, you can walk from neighborhood to neighborhood. From my house, which is located in SugarHouse, I can get to Liberty Park on foot within an hour - which is an entirely different area of the city and I can do so rather easily (27th down to Highland, through downtown SugarHouse and then over to 1300 S).

That's 3.4 miles away. That's a pretty decent distance, and it's not something I would walk daily, but it also is accessible and offers a great deal of retail options along the way. So, even if my destination wasn't Liberty Park, from my front yard, I can reach, on foot, SugarHouse Park, downtown SugarHouse, 9th and 9th, Liberty Park, Westminster College, and every area in between within about an hour or less.

From Daybreak, where can you realistically get within an hour? Residential...a highway...a park...maybe a school and then what? And don't get me wrong, I understand that's not Daybreak's fault. They had no control over what was developed there prior to its construction, so, it's unfair to lay that on Daybreak - but it does show the disadvantages of this area. You just don't have major options within walking distance, or at least within an hour of walking. Let's be honest, you can't walk down Bangerter Highway (it's both not practical and impossible because there are no sidewalks).

Originally Posted by jimmycdii

Yeah, I completely agree with this. I often come down hard on Daybreak in conversations (too hard, probably) because I know a lot of people who see it as an ideal end point/target design for neighborhood development and I don't.

But over time I really do think it'll be very cool. On the other hand, I see places like my parents neighborhood in Cedar Hills and similar stucco neighborhoods as never really overcoming their design flaws.

The District has pretty much every kind of place you could want to go to - a large movie theater, Target, Hobby Lobby, JC Penny, Gordmans, lots of icecream shops, restaurants, sports bars, jewlers, Harmons, etc. It is surounded by dense development to the north and south that are not associated with Daybreak in anyway. Like I said in my prior post, this development is less than 2 miles away from the furthest part of Daybreak. I timed it on foot - it takes 25 min from the TRAX station to reach the District. There are paved pedestrian trails that take you all the way there with tunnels under the roadways until you reach Bangerter - which is bad to cross, I know, but it can be done with enough time to make it across (they could really use a pedestrian bridge, though). The District has walkways and sidewalks that can get you around with minimal crossing of parking lots and roads. There is more shopping on 104th South and 40th West - about a 20-30 min walk, 5-10 min by bike. There is more shopping to the south at 126th south - but that is not very accessible by foot like the other two are (but its a short 5 min drive).

You don`t have to go all the way down town for things on TRAX - you can access 3 malls that are less than 5 min from TRAX stops on foot: Valley Fair, Fashion Place, and South Towne. Trust me, I did not have a car when I lived in Salt Lake and I was able to meet friends at all three of those malls with little difficulty.

You`re right that Daybreak is not SLC, but it is a HUGE step in the right direction. It is having a possitive influence in the area - I have noticed lots of dense developments going up in the areas to the south and west in Riverton and Harriman. It is positively influencing the area to conserve more land and build more multi-family units. Pedestrian/bike trails are also going up in West Jordan and other neighboring areas. Mountain View Corridor has a completed trail running parallel to it that goes for miles - farther than I have cared to bike or run to. I have noticed a lot of people are beginning to utilize the trails for biking, roller-bladiding, runnning, walking, etc. Even the traditionally suburban neighborhoods going up in the area have much smaller yards than the usual Utah suburbs. It is definitely not an end solution, but suburban sprawl will not be going away any time soon. At least Daybreak is helping to hem in the sprawl and encourage more land conservation through smaller yards and denser residential developments.

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Yes Soda Row isn't much now and over all Daybreak does lack retail, but check out this Long term map. http://www.bestsaltlakehomes.com/new-construction/daybreak-map.htm
Check out the Town Center. Soda Row is the tiny little village center in the yellow.

Exactly! Soda Row is only the first of three "village centers" and a large "town center". The Daybreak website says that the goal is to have commercial access be no more than a 5 min walk from any given point in the development when complete. The TRAX station was put where it was because it will be right in the middle of the future "town center""

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by (Eco)nomy_404

The District has pretty much every kind of place you could want to go to - a large movie theater, Target, Hobby Lobby, JC Penny, Gordmans, lots of icecream shops, restaurants, sports bars, jewlers, Harmons, etc. It is surounded by dense development to the north and south that are not associated with Daybreak in anyway. Like I said in my prior post, this development is less than 2 miles away from the furthest part of Daybreak. I timed it on foot - it takes 25 min from the TRAX station to reach the District. There are paved pedestrian trails that take you all the way there with tunnels under the roadways until you reach Bangerter - which is bad to cross, I know, but it can be done with enough time to make it across (they could really use a pedestrian bridge, though). The District has walkways and sidewalks that can get you around with minimal crossing of parking lots and roads. There is more shopping on 104th South and 40th West - about a 20-30 min walk, 5-10 min by bike. There is more shopping to the south at 126th south - but that is not very accessible by foot like the other two are (but its a short 5 min drive).

You don`t have to go all the way down town for things on TRAX - you can access 3 malls that are less than 5 min from TRAX stops on foot: Valley Fair, Fashion Place, and South Towne. Trust me, I did not have a car when I lived in Salt Lake and I was able to meet friends at all three of those malls with little difficulty.

You`re right that Daybreak is not SLC, but it is a HUGE step in the right direction. It is having a possitive influence in the area - I have noticed lots of dense developments going up in the areas to the south and west in Riverton and Harriman. It is positively influencing the area to conserve more land and build more multi-family units. Pedestrian/bike trails are also going up in West Jordan and other neighboring areas. Mountain View Corridor has a completed trail running parallel to it that goes for miles - farther than I have cared to bike or run to. I have noticed a lot of people are beginning to utilize the trails for biking, roller-bladiding, runnning, walking, etc. Even the traditionally suburban neighborhoods going up in the area have much smaller yards than the usual Utah suburbs. It is definitely not an end solution, but suburban sprawl will not be going away any time soon. At least Daybreak is helping to hem in the sprawl and encourage more land conservation through smaller yards and denser residential developments.



Exactly! Soda Row is only the first of three "village centers" and a large "town center". The Daybreak website says that the goal is to have commercial access be no more than a 5 min walk from any given point in the development when complete. The TRAX station was put where it was because it will be right in the middle of the future "town center""

Legitimate question - how many people do you think actually walk to The District? Because from my perspective, it's a autocentric development and while I understand, even in Salt Lake, you're not going to get huge numbers of people walking to certain areas of the community, I'd wager that still is an issue and what will continue to be an issue because the development around Daybreak is not changing its development patterns.

Moreover, it's not just about walking to one certain area within the neighborhood. It's about connectivity to the region as a whole and while mass-transit certainly helps in that regard, when neighborhoods don't interact, its stretch is limited.

Like I said, you can't blame Daybreak for how its neighbors developed, and I won't, but the problem still exists and Daybreak is still not the solution if everything around it is not changing as well. I know that sounds harsh, but the reality remains that area of the city is still sprawl-oriented and Daybreak is just as disconnected from other neighborhoods as other subdivisions throughout the valley.

The problem at hand is still not being addressed and I hate that. It goes beyond just a self-sufficient neighborhood because a city is not just one neighborhood - it's a collection of those neighborhoods. It's why I continue to hesitate to call South Jordan a city because it doesn't interact as a city should. Maybe some will believe that perspective is snobbish, but I look at the area where The District is located and I don't see it anywhere near as being walkable for Daybreak residents as what you can get in Salt Lake or even Millcreek and other older suburbs.

This is one thing I remember complaining about when The District was proposed in the first place a few years ago. The presentation was sleek, to be sure, but the underlying problem still existed - it's a spruced up version of Jordan Landing.

If South Jordan is serious about developing into a city, and not just a sprawling mess, they need more than Daybreak. Unfortunately, it just seems they're content with Daybreak being their walkable community without pushing for further walkable development outside the Daybreak borders and in reality, that is just going to set up Daybreak to fail because it won't offer the connection needed between neighborhoods. When I say I can reach certain areas of Salt Lake by foot, it's not just to get to development - it's also the interaction with the neighborhoods. I still don't see legitimate neighborhoods being developed in this area of the valley outside Daybreak ... so, what are they going to interact with? A highway and a glorified strip mall?

I know you'll disagree with that last part - but there is nothing urban or walkable about The District. It is essentially an outdoor mall and who knows, maybe South Jordan gets serious here and pushes for denser, mixed-use development on the parking that surrounds The District, but I'm not holding my breath. So, the way I see it - this:



Is no different than this:



And if that's your example of 'walkable' ... I'm not impressed. But I agree that Daybreak is a good start. But that development is only as good as the neighboring development and that, I'm afraid, will only hold Daybreak back.

[SLC Projects]

Jordan Landing is a lot worst then the District IMHO. While both are not very walkable the buildings are better placed at the District meaning the more of the buildings are closer together and having two big parking lots sharing vs Jordan Landing with there crazy zig zag roads have a building here with a parking lot, a building there with a parking lot and before you know it there's buildings and parking lots mixed up everywhere and it just looks like a maze.
The best thing I like about the District is the Main Street like road leading up to the Megaplex. If your lucky enough to get a street side parking you could walk up and down that street checking out all the stores without having to get back in your car. I believe the far north end the final phase will be a office building or two on that open undeveloped lot.

[Comrade]

You're right ... that is the best thing about The District. But its setup, sitting in a sea of parking, is no different than the setup you'd see in a typical suburban mall, which often acts as an indoor Main Street where it's literally walkable (in the sense that it's set up for walking) ... but the entire development remains limited.

That's why it really isn't much different than Jordan Landing because it still puts emphasis on the car. People are not walking to The District. They're driving to The District and then walking down the main area and then driving home - as they would a typical mall built in Anytown USA.

It wouldn't be so bad if it interacted with its neighborhood. It doesn't, sadly, and because of that, it's not like the downtown malls (City Creek & Gateway) or 9th and 9th or SugarHouse, which certainly have parking and people drive to, but aren't necessarily built around the automobile. Is that making sense?

What's worse is that the way it's developed means there probably won't be any future interaction with the area, either. Bangerter is not a walkable highway and the buildings closest to 3600 West are all facing inward toward parking. There is literally zero street engagement in this development - as even the buildings off of 11400 S don't hug the street - they're set back inside the development, divided from the road by parking and grass.

I just wish we'd want more for that area. Daybreak was a good start, but I fear that it's so limited, especially since there are no major developers replicating it throughout suburban Salt Lake. Most the development is no better than it was ten, twenty or thirty years ago.

[delts145]

Great shot H4vok, I like the angle. In the beginning I liked this project for it's unique contributions to the Downtown Portfolio. I still like it for those same reasons.


Pic By H4vok

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by delts145

Pic By H4vok

I kind of wish the deconstructionist look of the panels as they are still under construction was actually part of the plan for the building. It gives it a little extra IMO with the pixelated effect.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by DMTower

I kind of wish the deconstructionist look of the panels as they are still under construction was actually part of the plan for the building. It gives it a little extra IMO with the pixelated effect.

I was thinking the same thing...but you said it better.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

Legitimate question - how many people do you think actually walk to The District? Because from my perspective, it's a autocentric development and while I understand, even in Salt Lake, you're not going to get huge numbers of people walking to certain areas of the community, I'd wager that still is an issue and what will continue to be an issue because the development around Daybreak is not changing its development patterns.

Moreover, it's not just about walking to one certain area within the neighborhood. It's about connectivity to the region as a whole and while mass-transit certainly helps in that regard, when neighborhoods don't interact, its stretch is limited.

Like I said, you can't blame Daybreak for how its neighbors developed, and I won't, but the problem still exists and Daybreak is still not the solution if everything around it is not changing as well. I know that sounds harsh, but the reality remains that area of the city is still sprawl-oriented and Daybreak is just as disconnected from other neighborhoods as other subdivisions throughout the valley.

The people I know who actually live in Daybreak use the walking trails and bike paths and parks and everything within Daybreak all the time. And the ones who work downtown do use TRAX to get downtown, and they frequent the sports bar at Soda Row (I hate the name even more than I hate the layout of the "village center"...). So within Daybreak, I think the design is working for the leisure needs of the families that live there, and that's an improvement over other new communities along the Wasatch Front.

BUT, I think Comrade's points above (and others) about how Daybreak is connected to other communities are very valid. Those same friends who live in Daybreak drive to the Park-and-Ride lots to take TRAX downtown. To get groceries, they drive to Harmons in the District (those points about no grocery stores IN Daybreak itself are some of the most pertinent, IMO), park in the sea of parking, and have to maneuver from there. Technically, I guess they could walk to Harmons, and do their grocery shopping, and take it all back home, but they don't. And based on the parking situation in the District, I'm betting not many do. I sure wouldn't.

I know that's all anecdotal, but it's based on people actually living in Daybreak, who are healthy enough to do the walking, who care about car use and environmental issues, and who really would shop at a friendlier Harmons setup than what they got. And every time I visit them, I'm freaking jealous. Sort of.

Anyway. Guess that's it.

[TedBell]

I live in Daybreak and agree with most of the comments to this point. My biggest complaint is the lack of a grocery store. I bike to the Neighborhood Walmart on 9800 when I plan ahead (I hate crossing Bangerter). Otherwise I drive to the Smiths on 90th south.

We always drive when we go to The District. Doesn't feel very "walkable" to me, especially the uphill walk on the way home. I do however appreciate the trails and tunnels on Daybreak Parkway, and the bike lanes on South Jordan Parkway.

We walk and bike the lake trails almost every day, and use them to get to the bakery and the bar on Soda Row. We always drive to the TRAX station, too far to walk, and with all the construction going on I've had more than 1 bad experience riding my bike there (including a flat tire).

Overall we love Daybreak, and hope it will only get better.

[UTPlanner]

With regard to the LaPorte Group's building on State Street-- there were some very significant utility issues that arose during construction. They are mostly solved. If the weather becomes a bit better they should really start moving on the project. Though keep in mind that undergroud parking and utility installations just take a long time in general. Look at the Sugar Hole, they are still pouring concrete and if we think back a few years to City Creek, it seemed like it took forever before they even reached the ground level.

Also, I have do desire to be a moderator though I appreciate the nomination. Some people's comments on here annoy me at times but rarely offend me. It's tough for me to be offended by a stranger's comments. I think the real solution is to stop responding. I ignore those comments I don't like and comment about those I find interesting.

[RosePark]

Originally Posted by UTPlanner

With regard to the LaPorte Group's building on State Street-- there were some very significant utility issues that arose during construction.

There must be something about the East side of State Street in that area. The construction of Harmon's was delayed by several months

[Comrade]

It's because there was an Indian Burial Ground located there once.

"You son of a bitch, you left the bodies and you only moved the headstones!"

[John Martin]