Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

The Hyatt House you posted was NOT attractive.

I don't think anyone can take you seriously if you really believe what we're getting is more attractive than what I originally posted. Seriously, though, your reasoning on what you find attractive and not attractive is disjointed. Hell, you've said already that there isn't one attractive skyscraper in the Salt Lake skyline - so, I think we know where you stand on the whole debate.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by Merewether

There are a number of "random Google Street view" websites. One I hadn't seem before is the game
http://locatestreet.com/

This shows you a random street view to guess, but the interesting twist is that you can limit it by theme (like national parks) or by specific locale. If you choose USA>utah>salt lake you will be shown 20 shots, each with 4 neighborhoods to choose. If you choose the right neighborhood you place a pin on assumed exact site. Score is correct guesses and distance off.

Actually, one of the hardest things at first is deciding neighborhood boundaries, when does it stop being "downtown"and start being "east central"? And where is Arcadia?

(I may like it because one of the first images showed my avatar)

That was fascinating. I managed to get just above 1300 as a score. You're right though: I was unfamiliar with some of the neighborhood names that were used, like Wasatch Hollow and Arcadia Heights. I wish those names were more widely used though. I think it adds a touch of character to the neighborhood.

[Future Mayor]

WOW Comrade you continually Bitch bitch bitch about these two hotels, and you continue to talk about all the stucco that is being put on them. If you look at the exterior details on the Hyatt House, guess what there a total of 0% stucco on that building. As for the thin brick exterior finish, who cares? I know I don't, and I don't drive or walk by Urbana on 11th and think to myself "oh that building is such a piece of horrible crap." So once the Hyatt House is completed nobody will even remember and the look won't be any different. While the rendering of the Marriott appears to be stucco, I will reserve final judgment until the exterior finishes are released for that.

Your rational about the shitty motel in Portland that has great street presence is total BS. If we were to use your same rational, the Motel 6 street engagement would be substantially improved if someone simply built a 6 story building to the north.

I love how you continue to post pictures of places like the Crystal in on 400 S as examples of horrible urban interaction and try to compare these two to that one. They are absolutely incomparable as far as the street interaction and urban presence that it has compared to what these will have. Does the Crystal Inn, come right up to the sidewalk with all the floors rising straight up from there too, does it have structured parking in the rear, does it have retail at the sidewalk? NO, will the ESA hotels have all those things? YES

I do agree with you on the Cowboy Partners apartments on 5th W, but to say the street presence of those compared to the ESA hotels is the same is also ludicrous.

[Future Mayor]

As I brought back up the Liberty Gateway pile of vomit, I looked Sugarhouse thread and am I seriously appauled at those two developments by Cowboy Partners, particularly in comparison to Liberty Metro, Midtown and Citywalk.

I actually decided to go on their website and send them an e-mail expressing my dislike of those two projects and how they don't add to the Urban fabric of SLC, and particularly those two neighborhoods and the various other projects that are adjacent of nearby.

I told them I wasn't alone in my dislike, so feel free to send them an email as well

[email protected]

We get this:


This:


and this: (least favorite of the 3)


Now we are getting this:


and this:

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

I don't think anyone can take you seriously if you really believe what we're getting is more attractive than what I originally posted. Seriously, though, your reasoning on what you find attractive and not attractive is disjointed. Hell, you've said already that there isn't one attractive skyscraper in the Salt Lake skyline - so, I think we know where you stand on the whole debate.

I never said there "isn't one attractive skyscraper in the Salt Lake skyline." Don't make shit up.

And, I never said that what we're getting is necessarily better than the Denver hotel. Athough, more people than me have said that Denver hotel is ugly.

All I ever said is, don't cry that we didn't get that hotel, in the context that SLC Projects was whining about SLC not getting a convention hotel and THAT is NOT a convention hotel.

[SLC Projects]

Yes Comrade does bitch a lot, however in this case I have to agree with most ( not all ) of what he is saying. He said it best saying that for a city that is one of the hottest economy and job growth in the U.S. we sure haven't seen much of it ( development wise ) in the downtown area. Yes we have a lot of housing projects going up, none are highrises. Yes we have a 1.5 Billion City Creek Center thanks to the LDS church that has been long in the works. But we're are the towers? We come 2nd to Austin in a lot of things and yet look at how much their skyline has changed from 2000 to now.
While I don't mind the look of the Hyatt house by ESA I just wise it could of been a little taller then six stories. When was the last time Salt Lake City had a new hotel develop downtown that was taller then 6 floors?....Marriott City Center on State?, Grand America Hotel?....both developed around the year 2000, 13 years ago. Everything since then has been a few 4-6 story hotels here and there.
As for Office so called towers we do fine getting 6-7 office "towers" build across town in no time, but takes us a good 10 years or so to get anything over 20-stories to break ground. ( 222 south main ). So far......the PAC and 111 south main have been in talks since at least 2007ish and they plan to open in 2016......9 YEARS.
We have some very nice new Condo towers that don't seem to be filling up and by so this has delayed both the Casade and Tower 8. But in the mean time we get a bunch of Coyboy cheap ass partner stuccoville popping up. Wow.
And don't even get me started on the CCH BS. Leaders, pick a damn site already, pick a developer and let's get it done already before we lose even more business to places like Denver. Time is money Salt Lake.
Comrade brings up a lot of good points with this.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

WOW Comrade you continually Bitch bitch bitch about these two hotels, and you continue to talk about all the stucco that is being put on them. If you look at the exterior details on the Hyatt House, guess what there a total of 0% stucco on that building. As for the thin brick exterior finish, who cares? I know I don't, and I don't drive or walk by Urbana on 11th and think to myself "oh that building is such a piece of horrible crap." So once the Hyatt House is completed nobody will even remember and the look won't be any different. While the rendering of the Marriott appears to be stucco, I will reserve final judgment until the exterior finishes are released for that.

Your rational about the shitty motel in Portland that has great street presence is total BS. If we were to use your same rational, the Motel 6 street engagement would be substantially improved if someone simply built a 6 story building to the north.

I love how you continue to post pictures of places like the Crystal in on 400 S as examples of horrible urban interaction and try to compare these two to that one. They are absolutely incomparable as far as the street interaction and urban presence that it has compared to what these will have. Does the Crystal Inn, come right up to the sidewalk with all the floors rising straight up from there too, does it have structured parking in the rear, does it have retail at the sidewalk? NO, will the ESA hotels have all those things? YES

I do agree with you on the Cowboy Partners apartments on 5th W, but to say the street presence of those compared to the ESA hotels is the same is also ludicrous.

You told me!

If you even half paid attention to any of this debate, you'd realize I haven't been that critical of the Hyatt House. I think it's serviceable. It's the Courtyard development that, unfortunately, leaves me less thrilled.

But to further expand on the Portland comment - you're right, it's not a great development and the fact it interacts better with its surroundings than most of the hotels/motels in downtown Salt Lake City doesn't change this. However, we're also talking ONE hotel in an area that is far denser than anything downtown Salt Lake has to offer outside Main Street and I think that validates the point I'm trying to make.

This does nothing for me:













Now I get what is being developed over by the ESA is of better quality and will have far better street engagement than what we're used to from these low-rise hotels, but the fact they dominate this area of the city underscores everything that is wrong with Salt Lake. These are suburban hotels that have no different style than what you see in Sandy or even out by the airport.

Here's the Courtyard in Sandy:



Here's the Courtyard in Portland:





Here's their Residence Inn:



Here's Salt Lake City's:



That's why I get so angry and bitch because I still see an area that is often so ignored by the city that it allows these types of projects to develop. Granted, Hyatt House and Courtyard will be infinitely better than what I listed above - but it furthers the point I tried to make in one of my other posts: this wouldn't be a big issue if we had some type of solid development in that area to take our minds off this block.

The problem that Salt Lake is facing right now is that we don't have major development on the western edge of downtown. The only projects that go up in that area are generally low-rise residential complexes and cheap motels and hotels.

So, I bitch because I'm disappointed the best we can get in that part of town is a mid-rise Hyatt House and a low-rise, ugly lookin' Courtyard. If there was other, bigger development in that area, I wouldn't care. But that isn't the case. We don't have any larger residential buildings proposed for that area, and the best, which I pointed out already, is that Allen Millo project that probably won't see the light of day. Hell, even the Gateway feels like it's in limbo with City Creek pulling shoppers away from that area.

I'd feel more optimistic if we had more concrete development west of West Temple and not these minor hotels that are an addition, but not nearly big enough to change the landscape in that area. It's a big reason why I support building the convention center hotel in that area because I know it's in dire need of a facelift and I hate to tell you guys, these projects aren't going to do it. These small projects are nice - but only nice as infill. Unfortunately, we approach 'em as major projects because that's exactly what they are when you consider the fact there isn't major development going on this area.

I find that problematic. But maybe I'm overestimating Salt Lake's ability to bring in the type of development that really pushes us toward a more urban city. It's possible that just is beyond our means and we should be satisfied with the smaller developments and the occasional major ones like UPAC and City Creek.

If that's the case, then I'm wrong and you're all absolutely right and we should be happy we're at least getting this. But it just feels we're being shortchanged when you factor in that the city and state constantly ranks toward the top in livability, growth and economic strength. Call that bitching...but I have high standards for my city and while I can settle with the Hyatt House and even Courtyard, I'd love to see more in that area and so far, it's just not happening and I don't know if it'll ever happen.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I never said there "isn't one attractive skyscraper in the Salt Lake skyline." Don't make shit up.

And, I never said that what we're getting is necessarily better than the Denver hotel. Athough, more people than me have said that Denver hotel is ugly.

All I ever said is, don't cry that we didn't get that hotel, in the context that SLC Projects was whining about SLC not getting a convention hotel and THAT is NOT a convention hotel.

Your right, I should have never whined about Salt Lake City taking their sweet ass time trying to figure their shit out with the whole CCH issues while we continue to lose millions to other cities like Denver due to our lack of growing up in a timely manner. Silly me for "crying" over the fact that we continue to have to try to play catch up just to stay on the map while Denver gets yet another highrise hotel ( never said it was a CCH, you just made that part up ) salt lake just sites on the sideline with a thumb up our asses.
But hey that's ok as long as we keep developing 4-6 story hotels all over town because it's well known that these big group out of towners having to break up their group to stay at different hotels.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I never said there "isn't one attractive skyscraper in the Salt Lake skyline." Don't make shit up.

And, I never said that what we're getting is necessarily better than the Denver hotel. Athough, more people than me have said that Denver hotel is ugly.

All I ever said is, don't cry that we didn't get that hotel, in the context that SLC Projects was whining about SLC not getting a convention hotel and THAT is NOT a convention hotel.

I didn't make anything up. I remembered wrong. You just said the Grand America, 99 West and the Chase Building were ugly - though didn't expand on what skyscrapers you thought weren't ugly in the skyline. So, my bad in that regard, but I think it proves your tastes were probably contradictory to most here on this forum. That's fine, but don't pretend that automatically justifies your reasoning for disliking a project.

Originally Posted by Stenar

Grand America, 99 West and the Chase Bldg are ugly, poor imitations of other styles, etc. But not as ugly as some other buildings.

I'm willing to bet most here would disagree with you that 99 West is an 'ugly building'. So, if we're only going to develop projects to your liking, I have a feeling not much could ever get built here.

But whatever. We all have our styles and frankly, I don't care what the Denver Hyatt looks like or doesn't look like, this is a skyscraper page for a reason and I'm guessing most of us would take a stylish high-rise hotel (maybe 20 stories) over what we're getting. I wasn't the one who posted the Denver example, but I think the point of it was to show that Hyatt House doesn't necessarily have to be a mid-rise building and could, you know, impact the skyline far more dramatically than what Salt Lake is getting.

Even so, this whole argument about Hyatt House is ridiculous because I don't even hate it that much. I'm more disappointed with the Courtyard and I'd take the Denver Hyatt House over that Courtyard because, frankly, I don't think it's terribly ugly and it'd at least add something sizable to the western part of downtown - and that, my friend, is the whole point of my bitching. I just want some major development in that area because frankly, it's not doing it for me. It's depressing how un-urban that part of Salt Lake is and I want that to change. I'd love nothing better than to go through and demolish all those ugly hotels and motels and build actual development that you'd expect in the downtown of a fairly large metro.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

As I brought back up the Liberty Gateway pile of vomit, I looked Sugarhouse thread and am I seriously appauled at those two developments by Cowboy Partners, particularly in comparison to Liberty Metro, Midtown and Citywalk.

I actually decided to go on their website and send them an e-mail expressing my dislike of those two projects and how they don't add to the Urban fabric of SLC, and particularly those two neighborhoods and the various other projects that are adjacent of nearby.

I told them I wasn't alone in my dislike, so feel free to send them an email as well

[email protected]

See, that we can agree on.

[Future Mayor]

Just because we haven't heard any announcement on a CCH doesn't mean it isn't being worked on. I for one will be e-mailing all the County Council members tomorrow, as I think some of you have already done, to express my support for the county assisting with the financing of the convention space of the CCH.

I don't consider the ESA Hotels a major project, but I do consider it major for west of 300 W, and only because due to current zoning in that area west of 300 west these two hotels are maximizing the available height, and I'm glad that they are building something on that location, again that maximizes the height limits available.

And this
I am 100% with you Comrade on wanting to see something west of West Temple, and I agree with you that the CCH is our best bet, for the time being. I would hope that the projects south of Gracies will help to spur demand at the corner of 300 S and W Temple on either of the south corners.

As has been stated a couple of times, because we have such an abundance of parking lots and vacant buildings, it is going to take some time, and some projects like the ESA hotels to eliminate some of that space, creating a much larger demand for the remaining properties.

If I had my way, I would demolish and redevelop the Crystal Inn, The Palladio Apartments, the Residence Inn and the Hampton Inn, all horribly suburban.

Personally I blame much of the problems with SLC not developing taller on those at the State level. The State is so pro development and so pro sprawl that developers can easily spend less money in the burbs to build a a serious of four story office building, rather than group those together and build a 20-30 story office building downtown. The state doesn't take into account the true cost of those developments, such as the increased cost of infrastructure to reach those developments, the increase in miles traveled, resulting in an increase in pollution, resulting to an increase in health problems. If the State truly calculated the costs of sprawl development, many more developers would end up in Salt Lake City, and other such places that already have built infrastructure.

[delts145]

You bring up an important factor Future Mayor, regarding the issues of Downtown being handled at a State level. Salt Lake City proper lacks the party influence at State to be able to muscle certain developments into it's Downtown fabric. Denver has the dominant party muscle and population representation, relative to it's surrounding suburbs. Denver's city politic is the definite strong arm majority.

Salt Lake City's ace is that we have had a very powerful benefactor by way of the LDS Church, which has a penchant for quality development. I think most will agree that where the LDS Church has pressed it's development influence, Salt Lake City has superior developments over what has been accomplished in many downtowns, including Denver. Of course, that same influence has probably slowed certain quality development from national/international companies. We have seen that outside hesitancy changing rapidly and accelerating since the Olympics. Companies such as JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sacs and developers such as Hamilton are becoming more common. These secularly based firms of Worldwide prominence are picking up the slack more and more as each year passes.

It's not uncommon for these influencial companies to build in places such as Thanksgiving Point or Draper. This is a common practice in all corners of the country, even large Metros that have reached a certain seniority of age in terms of their boom cycles. Cities that have long experienced the drawing in of world corporate influence, such as San Francisco, Houston or even Chicago. While these major capitals have built up a certain CBD density of international companies, they are still creating large business parks in suburbia. It's just that they've been at the center of these types of boom cycles for many more decades. I'm speaking of the type of boom cycles that reach outward, and pull in large growth from an international influence. Salt Lake City's influence has been admittedly quite provincial up until comparatively recently. Again, that is changing, and changing very rapidly. Forumers such as Future Mayor have pointed this fact out continually, but it seems to fall on deaf ears for some. As companies like Goldman and Chase, and developers like Hamilton continue to increase their influence locally, they will attract more and more of like minds. Remember, Salt Lake is but at the infancy stage with this kind of world status. The good news is that Salt Lake's international pull seems to be on growth hormones.

I can't understand sometimes the lack of perspective that seems to often permeate certain people on this forum. There seems to sometimes be a complete lack of memory as far as where we were twenty years ago or even just ten years past. Some seem to be completely unable to grasp short term histrionics. I appreciated the comment made by a forumer who is visiting here in L.A. the other day. "Guess what folks, wood framing is the norm on mid-rises." Also, even here in Central L.A., which is very densly populated. Also, stucco, and no street retail on dense corridors is also pretty common, unless it's a commercial specific street.

You all know I'm no lover of Cowboy Partner's, and I'm glad that forumers like Future Mayor are writing in to encourage them to raise the bar. But honestly LOL, Cowboy and others are building more attractive mid-rises on average, with better material finishes than what I'm seeing on the West Coast. AND, I agree with Comrade. That's no excuse to settle. So people, instead of whining about Austin or Denver, which both have their own sets of defects, focus on writing in or even calling, attending meetings and voicing your ideas to people who have the power in their hands. Always be respectful of and grateful for what they have done right, and offer your respectful, grateful opinion on how they might consider additional options. After you've practiced this a few times, you will be astounded at how much help you have been in influencing change for the better. Many of these developers, who are excellent businessmen, are not particularly sophisticated when it comes to the field of design. They honestly have no idea what rims they should put on their car, let alone what the most attractive available urban design should be within their budget model.

Oh that many of you forumers with excellent taste were designing and developing these upcoming residential projects. Though, those of you with some of these outstanding ideas, please put your passion in a vocal place, in addition to this forum.

Many of you, I understand your impatience and believe me, I often feel it too. But we've got to seek a little balance and perspective sometimes. Too often on this forum, a number of us act like the van full of kids constantly asking if we're there yet. We completely ignore the large number of projects that have been of a game changing nature, that are now either newly opened or are about to be launched. We dismiss them as if they happened a decade ago, not a few months past. Many of these multi-billion dollar ongoing projects are far superior to anything that has been or is being built in other Metro's or CBD's. We are often losing interest and moving on before the projects are even fully completed, let alone revisiting them, after they have opened new businesses at street level, or their landscaping is effectively in place. There are so many recently completed projects, that haven't even been photographically updated since before their structural completion.

[Future Mayor]

Kyle LaMafa, Council Chair, just posted on his FB that he signed the 10,000,000 bond for the Glendale Library. I wasn't aware that a Glendale Library was being proposed. That is great news for the neighborhood. 1400 S Concord St (1250 W)

[Stenar]

I didn't say Grand America was ugly, but it is a poor imitation of a style. I kind of like and I kind of dislike it. It's a love/hate sort of thing.

If we're discussing a specific new project and I give my opinion of THAT project, I don't think I need to go down a list of all the buildings that I do like in SLC, because they don't pertain to the subject at hand.

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

I didn't make anything up. I remembered wrong. You just said the Grand America, 99 West and the Chase Building were ugly - though didn't expand on what skyscrapers you thought weren't ugly in the skyline. So, my bad in that regard, but I think it proves your tastes were probably contradictory to most here on this forum. That's fine, but don't pretend that automatically justifies your reasoning for disliking a project.



I'm willing to bet most here would disagree with you that 99 West is an 'ugly building'. So, if we're only going to develop projects to your liking, I have a feeling not much could ever get built here.

But whatever. We all have our styles and frankly, I don't care what the Denver Hyatt looks like or doesn't look like, this is a skyscraper page for a reason and I'm guessing most of us would take a stylish high-rise hotel (maybe 20 stories) over what we're getting. I wasn't the one who posted the Denver example, but I think the point of it was to show that Hyatt House doesn't necessarily have to be a mid-rise building and could, you know, impact the skyline far more dramatically than what Salt Lake is getting.

Even so, this whole argument about Hyatt House is ridiculous because I don't even hate it that much. I'm more disappointed with the Courtyard and I'd take the Denver Hyatt House over that Courtyard because, frankly, I don't think it's terribly ugly and it'd at least add something sizable to the western part of downtown - and that, my friend, is the whole point of my bitching. I just want some major development in that area because frankly, it's not doing it for me. It's depressing how un-urban that part of Salt Lake is and I want that to change. I'd love nothing better than to go through and demolish all those ugly hotels and motels and build actual development that you'd expect in the downtown of a fairly large metro.

[Stenar]

By the way, I really LOVE the design of the Glendale Library.

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Kyle LaMafa, Council Chair, just posted on his FB that he signed the 10,000,000 bond for the Glendale Library. I wasn't aware that a Glendale Library was being proposed. That is great news for the neighborhood. 1400 S Concord St (1250 W)

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Kyle LaMafa, Council Chair, just posted on his FB that he signed the 10,000,000 bond for the Glendale Library. I wasn't aware that a Glendale Library was being proposed. That is great news for the neighborhood. 1400 S Concord St (1250 W)

I'm concerned this new library might lead to the closing of the Chapman Library, which, much like the Sprague Branch in SugarHouse, is historically significant to the community ... anyone know if that's the case? If so, I'm greatly disappointed and hope the building can at least be saved.

For those who aren't familiar with the Chapman Library:

[jedikermit]

Yeah, the Chapman Branch is one of the few Carnegie Libraries still in use in Utah; it would be great if the building could be saved, even if it's repurposed.

[SLC_Rising]

I know its been a little bit of slow news lately, but i really like reading this thread when everyone is at least somewhat getting along...Just saying.

[John Martin]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I didn't say Grand America was ugly,

Uh, seriously?

Originally Posted by Stenar

Grand America, 99 West and the Chase Bldg are ugly, poor imitations of other styles, etc. But not as ugly as some other buildings.

This thread is just embarrassing.

[SLC Projects]

Maybe it's time for a change in subject, but can anybody guess to why the LaPorte Development on State Street is so freaking slow? These guys have broken ground some time last year and already I think 101 Tower site has more to show and they broke ground last month. Sure I know we have a long cold winter. But these guys wasn't the only development over the winter months and everybody else is moving along just fine. Are they some funding issues going on? Is this development even still moving forward? I drive by it once a week and for the last two months it looks the same.