Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[Future Mayor]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I love these two hotels by any means, and I don't love their designs, but I also don't hate them, at least right now. I do feel like there could be much more potential for that northern half of the block, and I wish it was zoned taller.

I wish the city could put in a mid block street e/w and n/s, but until the city has extra money in their budget to purchase the land for the street, they can't simply make the developer build a road. I do think they missed an opportunity to get the street as part of the development however. I think the zoning code could have put additional height as a conditional use, based on the addition of a mid-block street, or at least a mid block pedestrian access, that is viable.

I am curious behind the reasoning of the downzone that occurred on that block. I know this is stretching it and trying to make the glass half full, but as areas such as the ESA Hotels get built on, other property in downtown truly does become more prime and hopefully developers will utilize that more than before, ie, building up.

[livedowntown]

To everyone complaining about the city:

Working for an active real estate developer I can tell you the city has almost nothing to do with what gets built. They just set up the rules of the game and enforce them. The RDA has some influence and on big CCH type projects the city will have some say but overall this is the work of individual private sector people making it happen. If you don't like what gets built (or what doesn't get built) yelling about the city will get you no where - unless you are just yelling at the society as a whole.

If you think a project is beautiful or exciting find out who the developer is and tell them. Better yet buy from them, rent from them, frequent business in their buildings, and support them. Same is true for the bad stuff. Tell the developers that they are an embarrassment. It may not change anything but they are human beings and a little shame goes a long way.

[Comrade]

The city absolutely has a say what is and isn't developed within its borders. They have to approve developments, they can ask for changes to certain developments and let's not forget they control zoning of every single development. To say they have zero say in the type of development that goes up downtown is ridiculous - especially when many of these developments use city loans for construction.

So, let's not pretend the city's hands are tied on all these developments. It's not true. The city can have a great deal of influence on everything from street engagement, building style to height. The fact our city council doesn't address any of these concerns does not mean they can't be addressed - many other cities have a strict building code and an approval committee that addresses a great deal of the concerns we've raised in this thread. Salt Lake doesn't, but that does not mean they can't establish one (hell, even Boise has one) and then approve or deny certain plans based on how well they interact with the city's landscape.

The problem is that the city council doesn't do any of that. They're very liberal when it comes to approving these types of developments and it's why Salt Lake has a good amount of low-rise hotel buildings scattered throughout the downtown area ... and I'd wager there are way more of those developments than in cities like Portland and Boise and Denver - at least in the way they're developed.

Let's face it, western downtown Salt Lake is garbage because of these smaller hotels and while Hyatt House is a much better design than say the Crystal Inn, in terms of overall density and a solid urban fabric, once you get beyond West Temple, it absolutely does not exist and the city could do a better job controlling the development there - from establishing a review board to pushing denser mid-sized hotels.

But as is, we've got hotels you'd see out in Midvale and Sandy right in the heart of our city. I have to believe the city has control over that...certainly they could decide whether those hotels/motels are appropriate for the downtown core. If they don't, then we have the weakest city council in the country and what's the point of even having 'em?

[livedowntown]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

They have to approve developments, they can ask for changes to certain developments and let's not forget they control zoning of every single development. To say they have zero say in the type of development that goes up downtown is ridiculous - especially when many of these developments use city loans for construction.

Yes they control zoning. But zoning is already established for that area so as long as these buildings are conforming they can get built. The city can change the zoning now but these buildings would be built anyway. The vast majority of buildings do not use city loans.

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

So, let's not pretend the city's hands are tied on all these developments. It's not true. The city can have a great deal of influence on everything from street engagement, building style to height. The fact our city council doesn't address any of these concerns does not mean they can't be addressed - many other cities have a strict building code and an approval committee that addresses a great deal of the concerns we've raised in this thread. Salt Lake doesn't, but that does not mean they can't establish one (hell, even Boise has one) and then approve or deny certain plans based on how well they interact with the city's landscape.

I agree other cities have more control but we are not talking about them. I am also aware that the city - through zoning - has the power to control what gets built. They establish the rules but after those rules are established they have no more control. People have the right to build on their private property as they wish (as long as it conforms to the IBC and zoning) even if it is a bad use of the land. When you go into the city with a set of plans to build a building they review the building for building code compliance and check that it conforms to the zoning. THAT. IS. IT.

If you wan't this to change familiarize yourself with the zoning and lobby the city council, and the mayor, to change the zoning.

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

Let's face it, western downtown Salt Lake is garbage because of these smaller hotels and while Hyatt House is a much better design than say the Crystal Inn, in terms of overall density and a solid urban fabric, once you get beyond West Temple, it absolutely does not exist and the city could do a better job controlling the development there - from establishing a review board to pushing denser mid-sized hotels.

But as is, we've got hotels you'd see out in Midvale and Sandy right in the heart of our city. I have to believe the city has control over that...certainly they could decide whether those hotels/motels are appropriate for the downtown core. If they don't, then we have the weakest city council in the country and what's the point of even having 'em?

I agree with you these hotels stink. I really wish for much more. Our zoning, while not the worst in the country by a long way, is not progressive enough. It will be improving soon but right now it really lacks. Make the zoning too strict, however, and people just stop building, especially here in Salt Lake where we have such a suburban mindset. Land is much less restrictive out in the growth ring. You need rules but not too many of them or nothing will be built.

I would love a review board if they were progressive and semi-loose. Problem is, who is to say they wouldn't just eliminate any modern or contemporary buildings and require only faux-historical buildings like we get so many of. Who is it say that more regulation will give us something better. It may be worse.

[Comrade]

That's just it, though, it's not like the city can't establish more control over what gets built in its downtown. They just don't. That's my problem and I think a big problem most have with the council since so many shoddy developments get built because we don't have an effective design and review board. We need one. A city our size should have one.

I'm not asking the city overstep its powers here, but certainly they can put stricter regulations on buildings using stucco and push for more urban designs - something the Hyatt House has, IMO, but is lacking in the Courtyard development.

[Just A Thought]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

It's alright, could be worst I guess. Still.......it's better then a single story warehouse for that corner. Glad the hotels will have ground level retail space. Hope they add a bar where fans can hang out before or after a Jazz game.

Looks like a hospital.

[Just A Thought]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I meant to say..

This looks like a hospital.

[DMTower]

Even Park City has a stricter design approval process than Salt Lake.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Just A Thought

Looks like a hospital.

It does. That's why I like the Hyatt Rendering better. Since the courtyard is the later phase I'm holding out some hope that maybe these guys will see what Hyatt has in store and maybe even follow their lead.

[Utaaah!]

This image made me think, "Could the Cascade be built as a hotel instead of a residential tower?" It sits adjacent to the Marriott and only a 1/2 block from the main entrance to the Salt Palace. It could function as a second Marriott tower. It's direct connection to City Creek and close proximity to TRAX and other downtown attractions make the location attractive as well. Just sayin.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

It does. That's why I like the Hyatt Rendering better. Since the courtyard is the later phase I'm holding out some hope that maybe these guys will see what Hyatt has in store and maybe even follow their lead.

I don't get what you mean by "follow their lead" it's the same company developing both hotels.

[bob sacomano]

via Freshome:

[TimeSaltlake]

Don't hotels like restaurants try to keep a signature style. They seldomly venture awy from unless its a special location

[TimeSaltlake]

Originally Posted by bob sacomano

via Freshome:

Holy. What is this

[scottharding]

Interesting study reported in the Tribune: Salt Lake has the highest rate of gay parents int he U.S.

It was also refreshing to see that Salt Lake was categorized with cities over 1 million in population. They're going off of metro area, obviously.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56343271-78/gay-cities-highest-sex.html.csp

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I don't get what you mean by "follow their lead" it's the same company developing both hotels.

Isn't the courtyard marriott and the Hyatt house two different companies? Don't the hotel companies have a say in what their hotels look like?

[UTPlanner]

I suppose I have to say I'm surprised to see inviduals so upset about two small hotels. As someone who is intimately aware of city government and its abilities to place further design controls on development, I won't defend everything SLC does but I certainly wouldn't call the western part of downtown, "garbage" or any part of downtown for that matter.

Please keep in mind that we deal with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of permits commercial and industrial projects annually and it would be impossible for a committee to meet to discuss each project. Certainly, required design elements can be added to a Zoning Ordinance but it also had to be done in a manner that improves design (which is entirely personal and subjective) but also does not create uniformity. I don't think people want a campus feel to teh city. It's a tough thing to do.

The biggest reason that developers are not building higher end buildings or taller buildings is because the value of the property in downtown SLC is not very high in comparison to larger cities such as Denver or Seattle. Until there is more value than they won't build up. It's cheaper to build out.

At the end of the day, complaining on this forum won't solve a single thing. Get active in city government, make comments on Open City Hall, come to public hearings and contact elected officials. We are constantly attempting to engage the public with little to no response.

[RosePark]

I try to be an optimist about these things. Is the design of the hotels great? Not really, but these are mid-level chain hotels.

I'd rather have people see a couple of hotels across the street from the ESA when they come for a sports event or the circus or whatnot than a dilapidated old warehouse. At least the hotels will add to the tax base and adds life to the city. At least someone is investing money in the CBD.

When developments are built that are successful, more are sure to follow.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

Isn't the courtyard marriott and the Hyatt house two different companies? Don't the hotel companies have a say in what their hotels look like?

The hotels will be developed, owned and operated by PEG, there are some other partners in the development side of it. They lease the right to use the names, and each chain has a set standard that needs to be met in construction, design and service, depending on what level of hotel it is Courtyard vs full Marriott vs Spring Hill Suites, etc. So as long as the owner meets those requirements they can use the name.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by UTPlanner

I suppose I have to say I'm surprised to see inviduals so upset about two small hotels. As someone who is intimately aware of city government and its abilities to place further design controls on development, I won't defend everything SLC does but I certainly wouldn't call the western part of downtown, "garbage" or any part of downtown for that matter.

Please keep in mind that we deal with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of permits commercial and industrial projects annually and it would be impossible for a committee to meet to discuss each project. Certainly, required design elements can be added to a Zoning Ordinance but it also had to be done in a manner that improves design (which is entirely personal and subjective) but also does not create uniformity. I don't think people want a campus feel to teh city. It's a tough thing to do.

The biggest reason that developers are not building higher end buildings or taller buildings is because the value of the property in downtown SLC is not very high in comparison to larger cities such as Denver or Seattle. Until there is more value than they won't build up. It's cheaper to build out.

At the end of the day, complaining on this forum won't solve a single thing. Get active in city government, make comments on Open City Hall, come to public hearings and contact elected officials. We are constantly attempting to engage the public with little to no response.

Maybe garbage is too harsh of a word - but it's not good. It hasn't been good since, probably, the 1950s when it was dominated by dense warehouses. It's littered with parking, depleted buildings, underutilized blocks and worse, there is absolutely zero urban fabric outside the area around the Gateway.

These hotels don't change that and it fits a pattern of the typical development we see on the western edge of downtown - namely low-rise buildings made of stucco.

That area is still technically downtown and I wager most cities our size don't lose the density of their CBD as fast as Salt Lake and it's because the western area is so underdeveloped in its urban patterns.

I look at the areas surrounding downtown Portland and I'm absolutely jealous of what they've been able to do. The downtown is a cohesive unit and you'd be hard pressed to find anything resembling this located in the heart of their downtown:



I'll give both these hotels credit for designing more urban low-rise buildings - but it fits the overall narrative that western Salt Lake continues to lag in any substantial development. I think people are making a big deal over these two hotels because, like it or not, they're still a major project in this area. What's that say for western Salt Lake when two hotels this size are considered major projects?

I keep going back to the praise we hear over Utah's economy and how it's one of the best in the nation and how we're one of the fastest growing states in the country and yet, when you look at it from a development perspective, is it proving itself out? It doesn't look like it. For having such a hot economy, we're sure not seeing it in downtown development and if you take out the LDS Church, which is solely unique to the city, the development is even worse. I can't explain that.

I'm disappointed we can't get more traction on the convention center hotel. I'm disappointed we can't see a push for more taller, denser residential condos downtown that truly change the dynamics of the city. I'm disappointed the only residential projects popping up around the city nowadays is associated with the cheap Cowboy Partners. I'm disappointed that we're going to get yet another cheap looking stucco development in an area that needs something, anything, to act as a bigger catalyst to success.

So, whatever ... I'd be lying if I said anything west of West Temple downtown has excited me.