The Great Canadian Skyline Thread! II - Page 248

caltrane74 · #**4941** Posted **May 20, 2013, 12:58 AM**

I try to restrict boosterism to skyscrapers, construction and sales.

Remember the dark years between 1991 and 2003. There was not much going on construction wise back then in Toronto, and Vancouver had a significant building lead on us. I also remember getting excited about a 20 floor tower under construction on Bay Street in the late 1990's. Toronto was getting its ass kicked construction wise by every city in Canada as well, Calgary, Vancouver and Montreal were building more and taller than Toronto was.

logan5 · #**4942** Posted **May 20, 2013, 1:36 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Caltrane is prone to embellishment and hyperbole, but Logan5 should check his facts before making statements like he did. I often complain about Torontonians assuming they're #1 in everything, but when making claims to the contrary it's best to get one's facts straight.

These are the facts.

Quote:

If the West End's 42,560 residents in .788 square miles is included, the peninsula's 2.236 mile area has a density 44,387 people per square mile and 99,250 residents. That actually is significantly denser then Downtown Toronto, and I do feel that the whole of the peninsula is what properly corresponds to the area that was cited as DT Toronto.

Everybody here knows that the West End is in Downtown Vancouver.

Funny thing... in another thread you put the area of downtown Toronto at 5 square miles. Now it has shrunk to 4.5 square miles. So which is it? In any event dt Vancouver is still denser than dt Toronto.

Infrequent Poster · #**4943** Posted **May 20, 2013, 1:45 AM**

Putting aside the actual density numbers....I would say that Vancouver on purely a visual level looks denser then Toronto, due to the larger amount of (I know they are shorter and smaller) buildings in the same space.

Also clearly the west end should be included in any talk of downtown Vancouver imo.

softee · #**4944** Posted **May 20, 2013, 2:18 AM**

Does Vancouver really have more hi-rise buildings in its downtown than Toronto? I know to some it may look that way in photos, but buildings that stand out prominently in Vancouver would seem insignificant in Toronto in the shadow of the huge bank towers.

There are loads of 15-25 storey buildings in downtown Toronto between Queen and Bloor that don't even make so much as a dent in the skyline.

someone123 · #**4945** Posted **May 20, 2013, 2:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Remember the dark years between 1991 and 2003.

There was a huge slump in construction after the real estate crash and recessionary periods of the early 90's. Those years in Canada resembled what's happening now in a bunch of other countries that are now talking about "austerity" as a result of perceived high debt-to-GDP, high government expenses, and low economic growth.

Calgary did much better than most places during that period, and I think Vancouver did a bit better than average as well.

I hope we are not headed for another similar period in the future. Vancouver has already seen a big slow-down in its real estate and Canada's economy has been quite weak for several years. There seems to have been a cultural shift toward city living during the past 10 years however, whereas the 90's were a low point for Canadian cities where car culture and big box stores dominated. Maybe Canadian cities will weather this period a little better than the early 90's.

Wooster · #**4946** Posted **May 20, 2013, 2:55 AM**

I would think that "density" would be too narrowly defined as simply residential population. Wouldn't jobs or commercial/institutional square footage also count? I wonder what the people + jobs per hectare would be in major Canadian downtowns?

bulliver · #**4947** Posted **May 20, 2013, 6:25 AM**

8 image almost 180 degree pano...

Little bigger...

Stupid big...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/badcomputer/8754998114/sizes/o/in/photostream/

sync · #**4948** Posted **May 20, 2013, 6:26 AM**

amazing

isaidso · #**4949** Posted **May 20, 2013, 2:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by logan5

These are the facts.

Everybody here knows that the West End is in Downtown Vancouver.

Funny thing... in another thread you put the area of downtown Toronto at 5 square miles. Now it has shrunk to 4.5 square miles. So which is it? In any event dt Vancouver is still denser than dt Toronto.

If you're going to cherry pick parts of Vancouver to show a higher density, Toronto could do that too. Funny? The 4.5 square miles was cut and pasted from my previous posts in 2 different threads. Regardless, if you saw any of those threads, why would you make the claim that "Downtown Vancouver's density is unmatched in Canada, and probly never will be... it's still growing!" You apparently knew that was nowhere close to being factual yet said it anyway?

isaidso · #**4950** Posted **May 20, 2013, 2:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIMBAM

I don't know if it's fair to compare the 4.5 square miles of downtown Toronto to Vancouver while excluding the West End. If the West End's 42,560 residents in .788 square miles is included, the peninsula's 2.236 mile area has a density 44,387 people per square mile and 99,250 residents. That actually is significantly denser then Downtown Toronto, and I do feel that the whole of the peninsula is what properly corresponds to the area that was cited as DT Toronto.

That's certainly a fair point. I had tried to find information for the West End to include but gave up as I didn't know what that area was called. In the future, I'll include it as it's a more accurate representation.

Regardless, I could have excluded lower density areas from the sectioned off area I marked as Toronto's core to bump Toronto's density up well passed the 38,900 people/square mile I posted. The fact remains that Logan5's claim isn't anywhere close to being true.

"Downtown Vancouver's density is unmatched in Canada, and probly never will be... it's still growing!" - Logan5

Vertigo3000 · #**4951** Posted **May 20, 2013, 3:08 PM**

Isn't St. James in downtown Toronto the densest cluster of people in Canada?

isaidso · #**4952** Posted **May 20, 2013, 3:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vertigo3000

Isn't St. James in downtown Toronto the densest cluster of people in Canada?

Yes, by a long shot. In 2006, St. Jamestown had 14,666 people and an area of 0.23 km giving it a population density of 63,765 people/sq km or 165,151 people/sq mile. It's obviously a very small parcel of land and not representative of downtown Toronto. It does show how dense sections of it get though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto_neighbourhoods

I listed some census tracts in downtown Toronto:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

My census tract in downtown Toronto and the next 2 over from mine. All data is courtesy of Statistics Canada:

Census Tract 5350066.00 bounded by Jarvis, Wellesley, Parliament, and Carlton contained 8,030 in 2011. It's area is 0.33 sq km giving it a population density of 24,333 people/sq km or 63,039 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 6,965
2006: 7,120
2011: 8,030

Census Tract 5350063.01 bounded by Yonge, Bloor, Church, and Carlton contained 8,293 people in 2011. It's area is 0.32 sq km giving it a population density of 25,916 people/sq km or 67,140 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 6,846
2006: 7,299
2011: 8,293

Census Tract 5350063.02 bounded by Church, Bloor, Jarvis, and Carlton contained 6,934 people in 2011. It's area is 0.23 sq km giving it a population density of 30,148 people/sq km or 78,104 people/sq mile. Below I've listed the population of this census tract over the past 3 censuses:

2001: 5,494
2006: 6,098
2011: 6,934

logan5 · #**4953** Posted **May 20, 2013, 4:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Toronto's downtown core had a population of 175,064 in 2011 over an area of 4.5 square miles. That's about 38,900 people/square mile...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIMBAM

I don't know if it's fair to compare the 4.5 square miles of downtown Toronto to Vancouver while excluding the West End. If the West End's 42,560 residents in .788 square miles is included, the peninsula's 2.236 mile area has a density 44,387 people per square mile and 99,250 residents. That actually is significantly denser then Downtown Toronto, and I do feel that the whole of the peninsula is what properly corresponds to the area that was cited as DT Toronto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

That's certainly a fair point. I had tried to find information for the West End to include but gave up as I didn't know what that area was called. In the future, I'll include it as it's a more accurate representation.

These are the agreed upon, indisputable facts:

Downtown Vancouver density = 44 387 people/sq. mile.

Downtown Toronto density = 38 900 people/sq. mile.

Those numbers show Vancouver ahead by 5487 people/sq. mile.

Delirium · #**4954** Posted **May 20, 2013, 4:50 PM**

while on the topic of downtown populations, looks like the area known as Triangle West now has the highest population density downtown. the west end has been knocked down to 4th place over the last 10 years.

http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/profile-west-end-2012.pdf

Daveography · #**4955** Posted **May 20, 2013, 5:18 PM**

It's too bad that silly claims and debates about population density are totally drowning out some seriously amazing skyline shots in a thread about skylines.

Coldrsx · #**4956** Posted **May 20, 2013, 5:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulliver

8 image almost 180 degree pano...

Little bigger...

Stupid big...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/badcomputer/8754998114/sizes/o/in/photostream/

One of the best I have seen.

Coldrsx · #**4957** Posted **May 20, 2013, 5:30 PM**

A few of you might be surprised that the Oliver community adjacent to downtown Edmonton is 28,000/sqm

Darkoshvilli · #**4958** Posted **May 20, 2013, 6:59 PM**

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al

chrisallard5454 · #**4959** Posted **May 20, 2013, 7:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by isaidso

Correct, downtown Toronto has higher population density than downtown Vancouver. Vancouver is a little bit of an optical illusion because it's a sea of towers. What's not readily apparent is that the vast majority of them are only about 15-40 floors high. Downtown Toronto hasn't filled in like downtown Vancouver, but there are lots of substantially taller residential towers to mitigate against the lower density row houses one sees in many pockets of the core. Toronto's downtown core had a population of 175,064 in 2011 over an area of 4.5 square miles. That's about 38,900 people/square mile:

According to the link below, downtown Vancouver had 54,690 people over 1.5 square miles. That's about 36,400 people/square mile. Not only is downtown Toronto denser, but it's 3 times bigger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Vancouver

The city of Toronto is also 3 times (if not more) of Vancouver, and yet it is only roughly 3 000/sq km denser. I say good on Vancouver, and good on Toronto.

I also agree with the post about Paris (and any other European city for that matter) being much denser than Toronto/Vancouver ever will be.

MonkeyRonin · #**4960** Posted **May 20, 2013, 7:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

I also agree with the post about Paris (and any other European city for that matter) being much denser than Toronto/Vancouver ever will be.

But there are plenty of European cities that are less dense than Toronto or Vancouver right now.

(whether comparing urban area densities or peak inner city densities)

Urban development is not homogeneous across a single country, let alone a whole continent. Europe is not Paris.