Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[delts145]

Excellent points Comrade. I couldn't agree more.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Scraperdude801

I personally am affraid of the design if it is to be built on the RWP site, that it may not greet the street, and that it would just be a building to one day be surrounded by future expansion of the Salt Palace.

I don't understand this part of your comment. What are you envisioning a hotel on the RWP site to be, a hotel in the middle of the block surrounded by convention space?

Of course a developer is going to greet and engage the street, even if it's the CCH it still needs to have a street presence, and still needs to greet the visitors staying at the hotel.

[Just A Thought]

Originally Posted by delts145

Excellent points Comrade. I couldn't agree more.

I agree totally with your thoughts too Comrade, the CC already represents a wall between Main and GW, and to position the (potential) new mega hotel on the Plaza site will actually re-enforce that wall, and continue to ensure no-one ever wants to make the 10 minute walk from main to GW along any E/W street.

The quicker we make Downtown one continuous unbroken people/walk orientated space the better.

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

All good points, but you're also overstating the need for development on that area of South Temple and understating the need for development around West Temple and 200 South. It's not comparable - especially with the opening of City Creek. 200 South, as already pointed out in this thread, is rundown and vacant and ugly - far worse than South Temple between Main and 300 West.

It's not just that there isn't any development on 200 South, it's that the development there is underutilized, and worse, west of 200 West, down right trashy.

That area needs something BIG to get things going. You can't say the same for South Temple. Just because there is parking in that area, and a rather average hotel, does not mean there isn't already a huge leg up in potential. It's right next to Temple Square, which is the largest attraction downtown, you've got City Creek now open, and, as you mentioned, Abravanel Hall - there is enough options to build on. That isn't the case for 200 South. What does it offer anyone? The Salt Palace ... and? There's a cluster of historical buildings - but they're not the driving force.

As mentioned before, the area next to RWP is restaurant row. There are more restaurants close to RWP than the Plaza Hotel location. There's a lot to offer that's already there.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Orlando

As mentioned before, the area next to RWP is restaurant row. There are more restaurants close to RWP than the Plaza Hotel location. There's a lot to offer that's already there.

Are we now calling it Restaurant Row because I didn't realize that was its official name. Is it really a row or a smattering of restaurants?

Regardless, we're talking a sliver of the area that isn't even on the same block of the RWP site - and it's not like those restaurants have had that huge of an impact on the vibrancy of that area. Worse, as I mentioned, once you get beyond 200 West, the street goes down hill quite a bit - far more than South Temple. Not only do you have a lack of real development, but the development there isn't very attractive (the Sushi building, its neighbor, a building that has been abandoned for over ten years, a generic business, Vosen's Bread Paradise, a self storage and a parking lot) ... and that doesn't include the RWP site, which is pretty large and has zero street interaction.

To compare, the area we're talking about around South Temple is already well established - even if it isn't as busy and active as other parts of downtown. Still, it's not rundown like parts of 200 South and far more dense with the Salt Palace expansion coming to the street, Abravanel Hall, 99 West and Temple Square. These two areas are night and day and I question whether a new convention hotel there would ultimately prove that dramatic of a change. I mean, I guess I could see if we were talking the huge parking lot kitty-corner from the ESA, but we're not - the discussion is focused a block east.

Can that area be improved? Sure. But 200 South is in far more dire need of improvement than South Temple - which is actually still a fairly trafficked area of downtown.

We need to make 200 South more dense and the convention center hotel would go along way toward doing that. But as is, that area of downtown is vacant and ugly and it's sad that it's one of the first things people see as they exit out of the Salt Palace. If we pass on building the hotel there, what other project in the future could spur redevelopment in that area? Maybe a residential high-rise ... but how long? And in the meantime, we'll still have the RWP and other underdeveloped areas to deal with ... potentially for a decade or two, if not longer.

No thanks.

[delts145]

Of course, we all want those big parking lots on South Temple to be developed as soon as possible. But we also all know that the LDS Church will do a stellar job with what ever they decide, when they do get around to it. Hopefully, the sooner the better.

However, and I agree with Comrade. What exactly is going to happen to that extremely important corridor of 200 S? If a hotel doesn't go in there, then what? And how long will it finally take. Better to put a half to a billion dollar Hotel project on 200 S. now. Let the LDS Church put one of their many needed future billion dollar projects on South Temple. We know they will, and most likely not too many years off. There's a long list of ever increasing demands for building on those blocks on South Temple that are Church and or Campus related. Second South, if not for the hotel, is going to take a long while to generate a significant amount of synergistic pressure.

[ajiuO]

The thing you don't seem to get is that a hotel operator wouldn't care about routing foot traffic down 200 south... They care about providing the best possible experience for their guest... A 10 minuet walk does not fit the bill.

My only point is that the Plaza hotel location is the best all around site from a customer service point of view... And that is the bottom line.. I'm sure every major developer / operator is already aware of the fact that we need a convention hotel... And I'm also sure that anyone who simply drives by can see that the location is prime for development... If they want to build there and they work out a deal with the church... It will happen. The city counsel can say they love RWP and make all the suggestions they want... But they won't say no to someone offering to build something on the plaza hotel site... There is no valid argument not to put it there... Sure you can have the opinion that it would be better RWP... But the company who is willing to pay for all of this to happen is going to have a lot of say within reason...

Who knows... Maybe they will like RWP better... Maybe the church won't sale.... All I'm saying is don't count it out...


And I'm not even talking about the parking lot on south temple.. I'm talking about the block to the east of that... I know damn well it isn't happening on the parking lot block... I think they would let the plaza hotel land go for the right deal though.... That area was planed to be used as student housing... That can be moved over by west high... A hotel in that location would be great for the church to... I think they would go for it... With the right plan

[Comrade]

That's what you're ignoring, though - the fact that the hotel operators aren't going to have the final say on this. Not only will the LDS Church have to agree to build it there, so will the City/County and none of that is a forgone conclusion. To get the city on board, you've got to present more than just what the hotel operators will want - especially since it doesn't appear a private developer is ready to step in and foot the entire bill.

[Comrade]

All right, someone brought up SLC Punk's sequel a few pages back and wondered if it would be filmed in Salt Lake. James Merendino, who wrote and directed SLC Punk, has said it'll partly be filmed in Salt Lake as well as Provo, New Orleans, Africa, Boston, Columbia and L.A., so, it's not going to be entirely set here like the original movie.

[Scraperdude801]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I don't understand this part of your comment. What are you envisioning a hotel on the RWP site to be, a hotel in the middle of the block surrounded by convention space?

Of course a developer is going to greet and engage the street, even if it's the CCH it still needs to have a street presence, and still needs to greet the visitors staying at the hotel.

I'm not envisioning it in the middle of the block, but I am seeing surrounded by convention space, thus making the visitors less likely to venture out onto 200 S and spur this revitalization you think will happen. I hope I am wrong, but I remember seeing plans, like in 2009-10, of how the Salt Palace would one day expand completely over that block to 300 W. I've searched for the link that details this future expansion, but can't find it. Is anyone else familiar with this?

If there were to be no westward expansion of the SP, then the RWP site would make more sense to me. If there is westward expansion, then I don't see the area around the CCH, on the RWP site, acting as the catalyst for foot traffic --the wall of nothingness would be too great to expect a tourist pedestrian to conquer.

The tourist needs to be able to see places that they would want to visit the second they step out of the hotel lobby. At the RWP site, they will see the most dilapidated section of 200 S directly across the street, the blank wall fence of the SP loading docks to the east, some cool loft apartments to the West (love that little row that has/is developing there, but there isn't much in terms of entertainment for the tourist there), the Shilo Inn, some pretty lofts, and a couple night clubs to the east, with highrises the next block down. The visitors won't see restaurants on W temple or 300 S that are only a block away --those sight lines are obstructed. If I was staying at this hotel and had the option to take the (inevitable) skybridge (or other such connection), through the convention center to get to City Creek (where I knew it was safe and had restaurants), or venture out on to 200 S where I saw nothing of interest, I would probably take the skybridge. Some revitalization that is. You have to remember that tourists only spend money in our economy if they can see places that they want to spend money at. Furthermore, those same tourists are the spokespeople for what are city looks like, is the RWP site really putting our best foot forward? The Plaza site showcases: Temple Square, City Creek Center, Trax, The LDS libraries, Abravenal Hall, and it is closer to main street, etc. You never know who is going to come stay at the hotel and how that location will positively influence their feelings towards SLC from day one. Why should we force our tourists (customers) to be the guinea pigs in our urban renewal? Let them bask in what we've already done right so they want to come back! Happy customers are what will grow our city.

Also, I reject the notion that the CCH is the only hope for 200 S. I think that area of DT has had enough locally owned urban eclectic funk around that will continue to grow and spill over into it naturally, demanding urban neighborhood development. I think more lofts, restaurants, art galleries, bars, unique shops, etc., are the answer for that stretch of DT, not a too big for the neighborhood CCH.

[DMTower]

^^^If you are correct and the plan is to expand the SP to cover that block, then a CCH on the RWP site is the ONLY hope for any pedestrian interaction on that stretch of 200s. Also, the fact that the view across the street to the south is an eyesore illustrates perfectly the urban renewal effect the CCH would have right there. The sudden need for restaurants and entertainment in that area will spur development that would otherwise not have happened for quite some time. There's also a chance that with the sudden jump in land value that the block face to the south could be redeveloped before the hotel is even finished. Add in the street car on 200s. and that area of downtown will become more lively than the plaza hotel area has any potential to be because with the LDS churches plans for the area you can bet bars and nightlife aren't any part of it. Many, if not most people who will be visiting for conventions are going to be used to and expect to be able to find a drink at the end of their day and that area of downtown is a dry zone because of the effect of Temple Square.

[Makid]

Don't forget about the 2nd South streetcar plans. That will also help with Urban Renewal long 2nd South. The CCH will increase the rate of renewal along the street.

[Future Mayor]

How soon many forget what Main St looked like before CCC was announced, it was a very barren street, with not many retail/street level options. Once CCC was announced things started to open up, and now, expect for those buildings under construction or slated for demolition there are very few vacancy on the street. The CCH can easily have the same effect on 200 S. A 5-15 story building or two, residential or commercial with retail on the first floor takes a lot less time to build than a 1,000 room hotel and convention space.

[delts145]

You guys are right on. I live within walking distance of the new CCH here in L.A., and the redevelopment it has spurred across the street and immediately surrrounding is immense and ongoing.

[Comrade]

To be fair to Main Street, I think it was starting to turn around before CCC. That was only announced in 2003, I believe, and by that time, the street was beginning to turn around (though, not as much at the northern-end). I think a more legit comparison would be Gateway and its impact on the western-side of downtown.

It was a huge boost to the area, and continues to be, even though its future is more uncertain. Prior to the development, western downtown was fairly rundown, with a good portion of the warehouses empty and Pioneer Park entirely overrun by the homeless. The areas next to the Gateway, namely Rio Grande, Union Pacific and 200 S (heh, 200 S again!) were pretty sketchy. Today? It's still sketchy, but there has been an increase in development and a lot of that has to do with Gateway changing the face of the area.

[Stenar]

These all sound like reasons NOT to put CCH on RWP.

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

Are we now calling it Restaurant Row because I didn't realize that was its official name. Is it really a row or a smattering of restaurants?

Regardless, we're talking a sliver of the area that isn't even on the same block of the RWP site - and it's not like those restaurants have had that huge of an impact on the vibrancy of that area. Worse, as I mentioned, once you get beyond 200 West, the street goes down hill quite a bit - far more than South Temple. Not only do you have a lack of real development, but the development there isn't very attractive (the Sushi building, its neighbor, a building that has been abandoned for over ten years, a generic business, Vosen's Bread Paradise, a self storage and a parking lot) ... and that doesn't include the RWP site, which is pretty large and has zero street interaction.

To compare, the area we're talking about around South Temple is already well established - even if it isn't as busy and active as other parts of downtown. Still, it's not rundown like parts of 200 South and far more dense with the Salt Palace expansion coming to the street, Abravanel Hall, 99 West and Temple Square. These two areas are night and day and I question whether a new convention hotel there would ultimately prove that dramatic of a change. I mean, I guess I could see if we were talking the huge parking lot kitty-corner from the ESA, but we're not - the discussion is focused a block east.

Can that area be improved? Sure. But 200 South is in far more dire need of improvement than South Temple - which is actually still a fairly trafficked area of downtown.

We need to make 200 South more dense and the convention center hotel would go along way toward doing that. But as is, that area of downtown is vacant and ugly and it's sad that it's one of the first things people see as they exit out of the Salt Palace. If we pass on building the hotel there, what other project in the future could spur redevelopment in that area? Maybe a residential high-rise ... but how long? And in the meantime, we'll still have the RWP and other underdeveloped areas to deal with ... potentially for a decade or two, if not longer.

No thanks.

[jedikermit]

Hey guys,

Not sure if you are on Twitter or not, but @DowntownSLC just started what they're calling "City Talk Tuesdays." Tuesdays from 2-3 PM, they're conducting online chats via Twitter, asking 5 questions and getting some interesting answers. I don't know who's collecting the information, but today's questions:

1. Which building is the first to come to mind when you think of SLC?

2. The "arrival point" to Downtown SLC is what landmark?

3. What's the most iconic feature of the SLC skyline?

4. The most historic part of downtown SLC is ______________.

5. What place do historic structures have in Downtown Rising as new buildings are built?

Anyway, it was interesting and engaging, and there was some good conversation. If you're on Twitter, or interested, follow @DowntownSLC and check it out next Tuesday.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

These all sound like reasons NOT to put CCH on RWP.

I can't tell if you're serious or just trollin'...

The thing I dislike the most about downtown is how quickly it loses its density the further west you go from Main Street. That stretch of 200 South, which is almost literally in the heart of our downtown center, looks like something you'd expect from a city of a few thousand people - not the regional center of a large metro. It's sad and pathetic and it's been that way for as long as I've been alive.

Something has to be built there to act as a catalyst for that area or it will remain the hole it is currently.

The Plaza site is not a hole. It's not rundown. It's not vacant. Building there is not going to improve that area of the city like it could if we built on the RWP site.

[SLC Projects]

1. Which building is the first to come to mind when you think of SLC?
Carls Jr. on the corner of 200 S. and State. But no really there's a few.....Temple, Wells Fargo Building.

2. The "arrival point" to Downtown SLC is what landmark?
Temple Square is the biggest for most people. But for years I think the Gateway Mall has been a bit of a landmark in terms of arrival point to check out for alot of people, but now with CCC online that could replace the gateway as the cool place to hang out.
There could be many "Landmarks" just depends on the person and what their view of a landmark is.

3. What's the most iconic feature of the SLC skyline?
For many years it would of been the Wells Fargo Building, but now 99 West is making a big impact.

4. The most historic part of downtown SLC is ______________.
South Temple has a lot of history to it. So does the area where the Boston and Newhouse buildings are. ( That little road Between the two. ) There's alot of historic parts to downtown that could be hidden for most. Just got to know where to look.

5. What place do historic structures have in Downtown Rising as new buildings are built?
Must save those historic structures and make room for new buildings. Both could look get together. Just look at the Regent and 222 South Main buildings as samples. Both build next to historic structures.

[Orlando]

Okay. I think we should contact the government agencies involved in the decision regarding the convention hotel. Is it the county council? Makid, you seem to know who to contact. You also mentioned that they are already familiar with the formula that Portland is using. Yes? or no? Future Mayor, I think it would be great to send those examples of other cities with new convention hotels to the council members or appropriate contact/email. Btw, that picture you had of the Philadelphia hotel is probably incorrect. There was a new larger Marriott hotel built in the mid 90's for the new downtown convention center.