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  #2761  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2013, 4:03 PM
alki alki is offline
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  #2762  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 2:02 PM
RumbleFish RumbleFish is offline
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South Lake Union Rezone news
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020689378_sluheightsxml.html?prmid=4939


Man this city makes me go insane. The city council is gutless. The reader comments make my blood boil. What a bunch of clueless hicks. Why does everything have to be half assed in this city??????

Last edited by RumbleFish; Apr 2, 2013 at 2:19 PM.
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  #2763  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 5:23 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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Don't worry about the Times comment section. To exaggerate only slightly, it's a bunch of shut-ins who find themselves in the minority of everything and are generally angry about their life failures, so they lash out. Elections are a good indication...spending measures are put on the ballot, the Times commenters howl, then the measures pass easily, at least if they're local-only.

As for the city council, I won't get started. They do some good things, but they clearly don't see the benefits of highrises. Personally I want towers along the lake for aesthetics as well as other reasons. This neighborhood cries out for high density for a host of reasons from substainble transportation to basic capacity to grow....
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  #2764  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 6:44 PM
seaskyfan seaskyfan is offline
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160' doesn't seem that bad for the three blocks by the Lake. It's still a big increase and the proposed height increases throughout the neighborhood that look like they will be approved are still a huge deal.
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  #2765  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 6:49 PM
RumbleFish RumbleFish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Don't worry about the Times comment section. To exaggerate only slightly, it's a bunch of shut-ins who find themselves in the minority of everything and are generally angry about their life failures, so they lash out. Elections are a good indication...spending measures are put on the ballot, the Times commenters howl, then the measures pass easily, at least if they're local-only.

As for the city council, I won't get started. They do some good things, but they clearly don't see the benefits of highrises. Personally I want towers along the lake for aesthetics as well as other reasons. This neighborhood cries out for high density for a host of reasons from substainble transportation to basic capacity to grow....
I agree with you completely when it comes to the city council. In regards to the public opinion I hope you are right because it is just frustrating when the loudest voices seem to think that high rises are ugly and awful, developers are evil and growth is scary.

BTW- I have been on this board for quite awhile and I have always respected your insight and well thought out posts.
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  #2766  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 6:58 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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Thanks. Nice of you to say.

I'd say 20 years ago the anti-density voices were twice as loud. That's when the City's comprehensive plan was debated and passed, focusing growth in urban villages. It didn't really upzone much, but that was a detail. Dense nodes were being discussed and a lot of people were pissed. We almost got some slow-growthers on the council and mayor's office, like Charlie Chong. Today, a sizeable percentage seem to have accepted or embraced density, and the angry people have become gradually outnumbered. Of course that'll happen as people choose to live in places they like.
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  #2767  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 7:03 PM
RumbleFish RumbleFish is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaskyfan View Post
160' doesn't seem that bad for the three blocks by the Lake. It's still a big increase and the proposed height increases throughout the neighborhood that look like they will be approved are still a huge deal.
Why the f can't it be 240'??? That is too tall?? Give me a break. It is not like they are proposing 1000'. I think it makes absolutely no sense and is very lame. Besides all the obvious benefits of a taller buildings... shorter, squatty, wedding cake looking buildings are so much more unattractive than a taller slimmer building. I feel like I am in the minority at least in this city about that though.
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  #2768  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 7:11 PM
RumbleFish RumbleFish is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Thanks. Nice of you to say.

I'd say 20 years ago the anti-density voices were twice as loud. That's when the City's comprehensive plan was debated and passed, focusing growth in urban villages. It didn't really upzone much, but that was a detail. Dense nodes were being discussed and a lot of people were pissed. We almost got some slow-growthers on the council and mayor's office, like Charlie Chong. Today, a sizeable percentage seem to have accepted or embraced density, and the angry people have become gradually outnumbered. Of course that'll happen as people choose to live in places they like.
I agree. I also had felt public opinion had been slowly changing. That is why today I felt so frustrated. I honestly felt the the city council was going to approve the 240' height limit.
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  #2769  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 7:55 PM
seaskyfan seaskyfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
Why the f can't it be 240'??? That is too tall?? Give me a break. It is not like they are proposing 1000'. I think it makes absolutely no sense and is very lame. Besides all the obvious benefits of a taller buildings... shorter, squatty, wedding cake looking buildings are so much more unattractive than a taller slimmer building. I feel like I am in the minority at least in this city about that though.
It's just south of the new park - I'm not surprised they went with 160' due to concern about shading issues. You will still likely see a good chunk of the neighborhood upzoned to 240' and the portion along Denny up to 400'. That's still a huge win for density and height advocates.

Remember those blocks are zoned for 40' height now.
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  #2770  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 8:10 PM
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I like parks ringed by highrises. Both asthetically and for shade.
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  #2771  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 8:15 PM
seaskyfan seaskyfan is offline
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^ I'm fine with that setup too. I'm just not surprised the City Council didn't go for it.
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  #2772  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2013, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by seaskyfan View Post
You will still likely see a good chunk of the neighborhood upzoned to 240' and the portion along Denny up to 400'. That's still a huge win for density and height advocates.

Remember those blocks are zoned for 40' height now.
I hope you are right. They really need to get the most out of this part of the city.
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  #2773  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 3:27 AM
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I'll play devil's advocate and be heretical in this forum. Having the tallest buildings in SLU isn't everything. There, I said it.

Here are other areas where the city has increased heights and taller density is in progress:

Ballard
Capitol Hill
First Hill (esp. Yesler Terrace whenever they finally start...)
University District

Here are areas I'd love to see more done:

Aurora/Hwy 99*
Beacon Hill*
Int'l Dist.*
Lake City*
Northgate*
Rainier Valley*
SODO
University District
West Seattle

Seattle would be changing quite a lot if it upped the street wall in a number of places to a minimum of 3 floors. A minimum of 5-6 floors is significant.

I just wish there were more stylish but less stuffy and even playful designs.
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  #2774  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2013, 4:24 AM
mhays mhays is online now
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Our urban village neighborhoods tend to have a lot of 45' and 65' zones. Some are 85'.

But highrises are allowed almost nowhere.
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  #2775  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2013, 6:12 AM
alki alki is offline
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Originally Posted by mSeattle View Post
I'll play devil's advocate and be heretical in this forum. Having the tallest buildings in SLU isn't everything. There, I said it.
Yeah, I tend to agree with you. This push for ever taller bldgs and higher densities feels forced and ideological. Besides, some of the most popular, most urbane cities of the world don't have hi rises. I measure a city's success by how much its residents like it and want to live in it.

Quote:
Seattle would be changing quite a lot if it upped the street wall in a number of places to a minimum of 3 floors. A minimum of 5-6 floors is significant.
I think a great example is what's happening on Broadway. Its street wall is developing very nicely. I can't wait to see how the street looks after the link station opens and the surrounding development is completed.
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  #2776  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2013, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Our urban village neighborhoods tend to have a lot of 45' and 65' zones. Some are 85'.
The zoning may be there but I'm not sure that the city has built out to that zoned height yet.
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  #2777  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2013, 7:37 PM
mhays mhays is online now
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True, most urban villages have lots of room to grow in their current zoning, even counting reality rather than just theory. (When a three-story building can be replaced by six stories, that's capacity, but it probably won't happen because the three-story building will be too expensive, not to mention have its own constituents in many cases.)

While a lot of realistic capacity exists, it's getting eaten up at a furious pace in several cases, like Ballard, West Seattle Junction, Pike/Pine, the U District, etc., each of which has a small forest of tower cranes The 2024 growth projections appear likely to be exceeded substantially in some UVs. Land prices will rise pretty quickly....in some areas, the remaining sites by 2015 will be the ones who didn't want to sell/build (or couldn't) in the current and recent booms, or have tough geometries/adjacencies, or are too small to be cost-effective, etc.

That's related to the height discussion. There's demand for highrise housing, offices, and hotels, and some of that demand prefers highrise, or prefers the sort of density/proximity that highrises do best. Further, as UVs start to get tight (within a decade), we'll have a choice....(a) let the capacity get tighter and grow less, (b) upzone outside the UVs, and/or (c) upzone in the UVs.

I doubt we'll see highrises in most UVs. But some make sense. Northgate and Roosevelt near the train stations, the U District in general, maybe central Ballard and West Seattle Junction. As for South Lake Union, it should be a slam dunk. It should be a shorter wing of Downtown, like Belltown aside from its larger business presence.
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  #2778  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2013, 9:01 PM
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I agree. Just in relation to the frustration some have at the "Save Our Views" crowd, you have to walk before you can run. People are used to having lots of scenic views from theirs or other's 1-floor single-family home, or from their 3-floor apartment building. That's not going to continue.

I will say on their behalf that the views crowd do have a point. Not all views are the same and views of urban structures are worth valuing. That said, city planners and property developers have to up their imagination and game on how to create NEW public spaces that allow for new views.
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  #2779  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2013, 9:33 PM
joeg1985 joeg1985 is offline
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^ Totally! Developers should get height allowances for architectural creativity. Then maybe they wouldn't continue with all these crappy boxes they keep throwing up in the air. I know that this would be a hard one to judge with community input, politics, personal opinions and all but I think it would be worth a shot. Maybe people wouldn't mind so much not seeing the Space Needle if they had a view of an iconic SLU skyline.
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  #2780  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2013, 8:06 PM
alki alki is offline
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Originally Posted by mSeattle View Post
I agree. Just in relation to the frustration some have at the "Save Our Views" crowd, you have to walk before you can run. People are used to having lots of scenic views from theirs or other's 1-floor single-family home, or from their 3-floor apartment building. That's not going to continue.

I will say on their behalf that the views crowd do have a point. Not all views are the same and views of urban structures are worth valuing. That said, city planners and property developers have to up their imagination and game on how to create NEW public spaces that allow for new views.
I guess I don't understand why we can't have views while building out for density. A skyline is nice to look at from a distance but it doesn't make a whole lot of difference on the street.........and on street life.

I'd rather see better designed bldgs of all sizes that contribute to a dynamic street life rather than a city that is all skyscrapers.
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