[Halifax] RBC Waterside Centre | 37 m | 9 fl | Completed

[Keith P.]

Oh, come on. They are just trying to rent what is pretty much unrentable space. This is the essential dichotomy of Halifax and its heritage ways: we don't want anyone to knock down these old buildings, but they are almost impossible to make a buck on if you own them. Downtown isn't a museum, though some people would seem to want to make it one.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by SekishikiMeikaiHa

It could be worse...

(This could have been a stencil.)

In any case, I'm not impressed by this sign either.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Oh, come on. They are just trying to rent what is pretty much unrentable space. This is the essential dichotomy of Halifax and its heritage ways: we don't want anyone to knock down these old buildings, but they are almost impossible to make a buck on if you own them. Downtown isn't a museum, though some people would seem to want to make it one.

Oh for God's sake, Keith, knock off this hobby-horse. Well-renovated heritage spaces are more desirable for many uses than non-heritage spaces. I could ream off a zillion studies, real-estate market analyses, or news stories to that affect, but I won't bother 'cause it won't convince you. (Okay, one. And another.)

You keep saying these spaces are un-rentable, but you don't explain why you believe that.

[halifaxboyns]

Well taking a step back - it could also have been a deal between the city to allow this temporarily and then put the old sign back?

[ILoveHalifax]

I was somewhat concerned when I saw the Morse's Tea sign painted over. Then I read that it was originally Jerusalem Warehouse and Morse's modified it when they added their sign.
Why not let the new owner put up a current sign. Just because we saved an old warehouse doesn't mean it has to be stalled at a particular moment in time like a museum. The building has been modified over the years; this is just one more update.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

You keep saying these spaces are un-rentable, but you don't explain why you believe that.

It is not that difficult to explain why one would believe these spaces to be unrentable. They are EMPTY. Nobody is renting them

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

You keep saying these spaces are un-rentable, but you don't explain why you believe that.

I can't believe that we are debating whether or not these buildings are unrentable when there is a Baton Rouge sign on the Morse's Teas building.

This idea that old buildings downtown are all empty is simply factually incorrect, and I don't believe that landlords are having trouble making money off of them. If that were the case, sales prices for downtown heritage buildings wouldn't be rising like they have been. Starfish and others wouldn't be buying buildings like Carsand-Mosher or the old NFB facade. The Tim Horton's on Barrington wouldn't have given way to Starbucks, and Spring Garden Road would not have some of the highest prices per square foot in Canada.

Only in a Halifax thread would a picture of a brand new office building going up and a newly-renovated heritage building be followed up with posts about how downtown is empty and dying.

[ILoveHalifax]

This is not debatable. Most of the old buildings are empty. For everyone you name that is rented, I can list a dozen that are empty, and there is more empty space in the Spring Garden area as well.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

This is not debatable. Most of the old buildings are empty. For everyone you name that is rented, I can list a dozen that are empty, and there is more empty space in the Spring Garden area as well.

Okay. Where are these dozens of empty buildings? What's the vacancy rate for storefront retail and for office space in heritage buildings in downtown Halifax?

The storefront vacancy rate in Halifax is 10%. In other words, 90% of storefront spaces are occupied: http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplaceskil...mation/monitors/ns/ns-lmm-h-201202.shtml

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by someone123

Okay. Where are these dozens of empty buildings? What's the vacancy rate for storefront retail and for office space in heritage buildings in downtown Halifax?

The storefront vacancy rate in Halifax is 10%. In other words, 90% of storefront spaces are occupied: http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/workplaceskil...mation/monitors/ns/ns-lmm-h-201202.shtml

So the 10 percent would be all the historic buildings downtown. Let's start with Historic Properites. I believe there is one store left 2 fast foods and 1 restaurant. All the lower level of Barrington Place is empty and well as most of the store fronts under NSCAD. The Barrington level of Barrington Place has about 1 store left. This is just a start. Next week when the weather gets a little warmer I will go out and do a list, because there are lots more.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

You keep saying these spaces are un-rentable, but you don't explain why you believe that.

It was already said. They are empty.

Does the Morses Building even have an elevator? Does it meet building code? Are floor heights suitable? Does it have modern HVAC? If not I can understand why the top floors might be less than desirable.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

So the 10 percent would be all the historic buildings downtown. Let's start with Historic Properites. I believe there is one store left 2 fast foods and 1 restaurant. All the lower level of Barrington Place is empty and well as most of the store fronts under NSCAD. The Barrington level of Barrington Place has about 1 store left. This is just a start. Next week when the weather gets a little warmer I will go out and do a list, because there are lots more.

Barrington Place and Granville Mall are 1970's projects that are very outdated and have seen little capital investment since they were first built. The "mini mall" and pedestrian models don't generally work very well, and in most other cities they were renovated out of existence years ago. Crombie is just now starting to modernize Scotia Square and Barrington Place.

Cogswell itself is a big part of the reason for the failure of this area. The whole northern end of the downtown was rebuilt in a car-friendly way under the assumption that suburbanites would drive downtown to work and shop. It turns out those assumptions were incorrect and as a result North American city planning has generally abandoned the idea of building downtown cores around high-speed, high-volume roadways. It has never worked very well, despite the fact that enormous sums of money were spent trying to get it to work in the 60's and 70's.

Thankfully there are many parts of the downtown core that weren't redeveloped in this way and they are generally more successful, even in cases where they are more difficult to get to by car. Areas like Barrington, Spring Garden Road, and Argyle have been doing really well lately. Even Gottingen Street has noticeably improved over the last few years.

[sdm]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

So the 10 percent would be all the historic buildings downtown. Let's start with Historic Properites. I believe there is one store left 2 fast foods and 1 restaurant. All the lower level of Barrington Place is empty and well as most of the store fronts under NSCAD. The Barrington level of Barrington Place has about 1 store left. This is just a start. Next week when the weather gets a little warmer I will go out and do a list, because there are lots more.

Not sure when you were down to historic properties last, but there is more than one store left. A lot of the tenants listed on Downtown Halifaxs list of new openings (past 12 – 18 months) have their address there (Two if by Sea, London Loft, Saint Lou’s Barber). Heck there was news that Coldwell’s Brothers and another store are opening there. I agree there are vacant store fronts, but i've been told a lot of them are being filled with year round tenants, not seasonal tourist crap as part of a revitalization effort timed to the opening of RBC Waterside Centre (which is also owned by the same developer).

The Granville area and Barrington place shops are empty, agreed but Crombie is rumoured to be putting a large retailer in the ground level and converting to office upstairs.

I know there is very little available for office space at Historic Properties, so besides the “retail” I wouldn’t agree to say its vacant.

[fenwick16]

I think that the idea of having mostly office space downtown is no longer a model to follow. In cities such as Toronto there is a a prevalence of residential towers going up in the downtown core. I really think that this is what is needed in Halifax - several thousand people living in the downtown core and then retail development will take care of itself.

In addition, if a comparison is to be made with Toronto and Manhattan then some form of high frequency, rapid transit is required.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by sdm

The Granville area and Barrington place shops are empty, agreed but Crombie is rumoured to be putting a large retailer in the ground level and converting to office upstairs.

Even in cities like Toronto and Vancouver, a lot of the older 70's-style mini malls (right by Yonge Street and Robson Street) were kind of unsuccessful and a lot of them have disappeared or been renovated to open them up and integrate them into nearby storefront shopping districts a little better. Similarly a lot of cities got rid of pedestrian mall experiments from the 70's. It seems really important for retail spots to be very accessible, with high visibility and a mix of traffic (not heavy arterial-style traffic, but good access for cars/taxis/delivery vehicles and transit). This is why I cringe when I hear people talk about banning cars from Spring Garden Road or Argyle Street.

I am curious to see how all of these little improvements to the old downtown area will work out (Waterside, TD, Scotia Square renos, Espace, etc. etc.). Hopefully they will complement each other somewhat so that the whole area will work a little better. Right now it is very fragmented and dated and there are a bunch of "holes" created by vacancies or development sites. On top of this of course I firmly believe that the downtown area needs much better transit and more residential development in order to live up to its potential. It is hard to build a vibrant downtown with only commuters.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by sdm

Not sure when you were down to historic properties last, but there is more than one store left. A lot of the tenants listed on Downtown Halifaxs list of new openings (past 12 – 18 months) have their address there (Two if by Sea, London Loft, Saint Lou’s Barber). Heck there was news that Coldwell’s Brothers and another store are opening there. I agree there are vacant store fronts, but i've been told a lot of them are being filled with year round tenants, not seasonal tourist crap as part of a revitalization effort timed to the opening of RBC Waterside Centre (which is also owned by the same developer).

The Granville area and Barrington place shops are empty, agreed but Crombie is rumoured to be putting a large retailer in the ground level and converting to office upstairs.

I know there is very little available for office space at Historic Properties, so besides the “retail” I wouldn’t agree to say its vacant.

I have not been there for 3 days and prior to that a week or two. I'll check it out again this weekend and do a list.

[Drybrain]

I think the points I was trying to make have been well made by others, but I can't resist chiming in briefly.

A. Because a space is not rented does not mean it is un-rentable. Logical fallacy.

B. As has been pointed out, the Granville Mall/Historic properties are actually not doing that badly, and have improved as of late. Part of the reason for their woes, however, is their location, wedged up against the interchange, making their northern flank a no-go zone.

C. The successes of Gastown, the Distillery District, the Byward market, and Old Montreal seem to disprove this notion that older structures are inherently less desirable. If anything, they seem to suggest that well-maintained older structures, with certain contemporary modifications, are more desirable.

D. I'm starting to wonder if ILoveHalifax does love it, because to hear him tell, this city is one precarious step from utter ruination.

ANYWAY.

I like old buildings; they're nice. Lots of other people like them too. That is all.

[hoser111]

Soooooooo....

I like the glass!

(Since this is a thread about RBC Waterside and not about the Morses Tea building(Jerusalem Warehouse) discussion?)

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

So the 10 percent would be all the historic buildings downtown. Let's start with Historic Properites. I believe there is one store left 2 fast foods and 1 restaurant. All the lower level of Barrington Place is empty and well as most of the store fronts under NSCAD. The Barrington level of Barrington Place has about 1 store left. This is just a start. Next week when the weather gets a little warmer I will go out and do a list, because there are lots more.

Well, no, Historic Properties also has art galleries, the extremely successful Lower Deck, Hart & Thistle, Cows, Salty's, probably other things as well (haven't been in Hali since September). Privateer's Wharf itself is kind of dead these days but Historic Properties as a whole definitely has more than "one store... 2 fast foods and 1 restaurant".

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It was already said. They are empty.

Does the Morses Building even have an elevator? Does it meet building code? Are floor heights suitable? Does it have modern HVAC? If not I can understand why the top floors might be less than desirable.

It has two elevators.

It has been renovated to meet building code (in terms of egress, with a separated exit stair and lobby). The upper floors are pretty much shells waiting to be renovated to suit renters' needs. Perhaps Starfish needs to inject some cash into preparing the spaces a little more to look like they're on the verge of functioning as offices. I was in a year or two ago, and the upper floors were arranged with every other floor cut back in the centre (like a doughnut) to provide a mezzanine ringing a full floor. Great big wood beams and exposed brick like down in Baton Rouge. I'm not sure if potential renters want a blank space with promise, or would prefer to see something that looks move-in ready.

Has HVAC - not sure how much on the upper floors, but there is intense HVAC required for Baton Rouge's kitchen.