Tempe Development Thread

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

...but how many of those employees from far-flung suburbs could split the difference by driving to a light rail park-and-ride such as the one at Price Freeway / Apache and taking the train from there? Doing so might not reduce total driving all that much, but it would displace some cars from where parking is limited to where it is abundant. When i ride my bike across University at Ash around 5 PM and see the lines of single occupant vehicles exiting the garages, I can't help but wonder if Chase is doing enough. Does it provide free Platinum Passes to its employees? Does it charge employees for the privilege of parking on site? My own employer does the former but not the latter, although I've suggested that you can't really claim to be a green company when most of your employees drive alone to work and the company induces them to do so with free on-site parking.

I completely agree that ideally- Metro should be utilized whenever possible. Downtown Tempe is the nerve center for this part of the Valley's transportation network (Tempe Transit Center.)

The issue for a lot of folks (not just Chase employees mind you- but anyone who works in Downtown Tempe) I would imagine is the extra time that it would add to their commute to do so. Think about it, if you are driving to Tempe from Gilbert or Queen Creek and you've already been in the car for like 35 -40 minutes by the time you get closer to Tempe, it doesn't make logical sense to go out of your way to park at the Apache/101 park and ride, pay for a round-trip ticket (and no- sadly Chase doesn't pay for monthly passes at this time... but I agree it would be a wonderful thing if they did) wait for a train and then spend an additional 15 minutes or so getting into Downtown Tempe and then walking from 3rd and Mill down to University.

This is why I believe that the Phoenix region should take a serious look at commuter rail all across the Valley. The Metro is wonderful for shorter hauls within the central part of the city. But the frequent stops and relatively low speed of travel (and currently limited service area) make it very impractical for anyone who doesn't live near it. What I would love to see would be a system similar to: The Coaster in San Diego, Metrolink in LA, New Jersey Transit, Washington Metro etc. So that we can reach communities like Avondale, Peoria, North Scottsdale, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Maricopa etc. I know that this is being studied- and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

And to answer your other question: Chase provides free parking for its Downtown Tempe employees and its employees at the Sky Harbor facility. The only pay garage currently is at Chase Tower in downtown Phoenix. As a Chase employee- I'll be honest- I love that. It's an amazing perk of the job- and we are allowed to use the garages at any time- not just for work.
However, as a citizen who is, like you, concerned about TOD and making downtown a more pedestrian/ bike oriented community- I 100% agree that charging for parking might help to tip the scales towards increased ride sharing or use of alternate means of transportation.

So those are some of my thoughts on all this- and again- I totally agree with you that large companies, such as Chase, do have a golden opportunity to work with the cities where they do business to help drive the cultural change that would support TOD and the use of alternate transportation.

What thoughts do the rest of you have around this?

[MegaBass]

Monti's La Casa Vieja Steakhouse patio area near completion.

[savphili]

Originally Posted by MegaBass

Monti's La Casa Vieja Steakhouse patio area near completion.

Haha, there's my buddy in blue! I hear they are going to have a different 'appetizer' menu for the patio and specialty drinks.

Turned out really nice!

[savphili]

Just to spark up another conversation, what do you guys think would be a good project to build on the north half of the block on 7th, from Mill to Myrtle. The vacant land north of Jack in the Box east to the raggedy apartments.

The site was originally proposed for an "M7 Complex" with a convention center space, the Marriot Hotel, commercial space below and I'm sure some office and residences.

I've been a local in Tempe for quite a while now and am so ready for something to be built here.

[PHX31]

Rebuild the old Long Wongs. j/k, but honesly, I'd rather have that then the above mega-project. Sometimes old dingy buildings bring way more life to a street than a shiny new high-rise.

[Jjs5056]

Honestly, I want to see a fairly similar project. The developer grabbed all the land to from a mega-parcel so sow thing fairly substantial needs to be created.

That exact project, with the middle tower replaced by a shorter connecting piece with amenities on top (like the connecting piece at W6) and luxury rentals instead of condos works for me. Now that Centerpoint seems to be coming back from the dead, I think a hotel and retail would be very successful and Mill needs ore rentals geared toward professionals.

Not sure where the convention space fit into the plan, but may that could be replaced with some condos if the market could support it, or maybe a gym. With more residential, an LA Fitness might work out.

Lastly, is there anything the city can do to reject a plan for another garage on Ash/Uni? I just can't imagine they'd support such a development with their longterm streetcar and ToD plans for Ash. Surely, they can wrap th garage to at least include SOME additional retail.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TempeSilverFox

\
The issue for a lot of folks (not just Chase employees mind you- but anyone who works in Downtown Tempe) I would imagine is the extra time that it would add to their commute to do so. Think about it, if you are driving to Tempe from Gilbert or Queen Creek and you've already been in the car for like 35 -40 minutes by the time you get closer to Tempe, it doesn't make logical sense to go out of your way to park at the Apache/101 park and ride, pay for a round-trip ticket (and no- sadly Chase doesn't pay for monthly passes at this time... but I agree it would be a wonderful thing if they did) wait for a train and then spend an additional 15 minutes or so getting into Downtown Tempe and then walking from 3rd and Mill down to University.

This is why I believe that the Phoenix region should take a serious look at commuter rail all across the Valley. The Metro is wonderful for shorter hauls within the central part of the city. But the frequent stops and relatively low speed of travel (and currently limited service area) make it very impractical for anyone who doesn't live near it. What I would love to see would be a system similar to: The Coaster in San Diego, Metrolink in LA, New Jersey Transit, Washington Metro etc. So that we can reach communities like Avondale, Peoria, North Scottsdale, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Maricopa etc. I know that this is being studied- and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

And to answer your other question: Chase provides free parking for its Downtown Tempe employees and its employees at the Sky Harbor facility. The only pay garage currently is at Chase Tower in downtown Phoenix. As a Chase employee- I'll be honest- I love that. It's an amazing perk of the job- and we are allowed to use the garages at any time- not just for work.
However, as a citizen who is, like you, concerned about TOD and making downtown a more pedestrian/ bike oriented community- I 100% agree that charging for parking might help to tip the scales towards increased ride sharing or use of alternate means of transportation.

So those are some of my thoughts on all this- and again- I totally agree with you that large companies, such as Chase, do have a golden opportunity to work with the cities where they do business to help drive the cultural change that would support TOD and the use of alternate transportation.

What thoughts do the rest of you have around this?

Commuter rail would be helpful, and I hope to see it added to the region's transport mix in my lifetime. Nevertheless, if the incentives are all wrong, people will still make commuting choices that may be rational for them but harmful at a global level. If Chase provides free parking and doesn't cover employee transit fares, it has created incentives that are exactly the opposite of what they should be. Chase is hardly alone in doing so, but it's still a misguided strategy for a facility so close to light rail and multiple bus routes.

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Commuter rail would be helpful, and I hope to see it added to the region's transport mix in my lifetime. Nevertheless, if the incentives are all wrong, people will still make commuting choices that may be rational for them but harmful at a global level. If Chase provides free parking and doesn't cover employee transit fares, it has created incentives that are exactly the opposite of what they should be. Chase is hardly alone in doing so, but it's still a misguided strategy for a facility so close to light rail and multiple bus routes.

I completely agree. I hope this changes in the near future- and I will do whatever I can to turn this around. You pretty well nailed it- the incentives are against using mass transit at this point.

[MegaBass]

Found this on ASU's Campus Planning site

[Jjs5056]

Anyone have some scoop on the repurposing of the art annex on College into a restaurant? I think that could be a great way of pushing acitivity further and further north, with Block 12 and Hub serving as book-ends.

http://azbex.com/del-e-webb-school-of-construction-to-get-new-54-5m-home/

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by TempeSilverFox

This is why I believe that the Phoenix region should take a serious look at commuter rail all across the Valley. The Metro is wonderful for shorter hauls within the central part of the city. But the frequent stops and relatively low speed of travel (and currently limited service area) make it very impractical for anyone who doesn't live near it. What I would love to see would be a system similar to: The Coaster in San Diego, Metrolink in LA, New Jersey Transit, Washington Metro etc. So that we can reach communities like Avondale, Peoria, North Scottsdale, Gilbert, Queen Creek, Maricopa etc. I know that this is being studied- and I hope it happens sooner rather than later.

What thoughts do the rest of you have around this?

I agree with you that metro Phoenix needs to first expand Rapid transit rail before one could expect overly large parking structures to come down, but I don't think commuter rail is the answer right now. I would love to see Phoenix expand and speed up the LR system and have slower/local streetcar spurs coming off of it to serve local interests (like what Tempe is trying to do).

SD's Coaster only has 6,000 riders/day. I'd expect similar numbers on a QC to Phx line. The SD Trolley has 90-100k daily riders. the Trolley is rapid transit and behaves somewhat like commuter rail in that in doesn't operate with vehicles and when it does the intersections are controlled. The trolley doesn't have to stop, it has the right of way.

Phoenix LRT needs to be sped up. Right now it is basically a very fancy streetcar that must obey traffic signals. I know its in its own ROW, but still waiting at red lights then proceeding to the next stop, makes for one long ride. It can be changed with more funding to speed up the whole system and I think it will eventually. I hope that Phoenix would build rail road crossing gates at ALL intersections giving the train the right of way at every intersection. Extending The Metro to the outer reaches of Phoenix suburbia will result in a very long ride that very few people will use to commute to jobs in DT unless the whole system is sped up.

I think for a good commuter rail system, a great local system (LRT/streetcar) must be in place first to take people from the train depot to destinations around these urban hubs (central Phx, DT Tempe-Asu-rio salado, central Mesa).

[TempeSilverFox]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Phoenix LRT needs to be sped up. Right now it is basically a very fancy streetcar that must obey traffic signals. I know its in its own ROW, but still waiting at red lights then proceeding to the next stop, makes for one long ride. It can be changed with more funding to speed up the whole system and I think it will eventually. I hope that Phoenix would build rail road crossing gates at ALL intersections giving the train the right of way at every intersection. Extending The Metro to the outer reaches of Phoenix suburbia will result in a very long ride that very few people will use to commute to jobs in DT unless the whole system is sped up.

I think for a good commuter rail system, a great local system (LRT/streetcar) must be in place first to take people from the train depot to destinations around these urban hubs (central Phx, DT Tempe-Asu-rio salado, central Mesa).

Yes, I agree it is frustrating that the Phoenix Metro must stop at all red lights!?! I'm guessing the system was originally designed that way to save money- because I'm sure it would cost quite a bit to add controls at every intersection to give the Metro the right of way.

The Coaster in San Diego was probably not the best example I could have thrown out, especially given its overall ridership. I just used it as an example for the type of system (type of train cars etc.) that I want to see here. The Trolley in San Diego has multiple lines that run all over the central, southern and eastern part of the city and they were able to build the initial segment down to San Ysidro on existing right of way- so it was very cost effective and has been there for decades. The frequency of the stops though are still quite high compared with the Coaster - or any other city's commuter rail system - which does make the trip from Santee or San Ysidro to Downtown San Diego take a long time.

The Coaster's travel time is much shorter given how much distance it covers (from Oceanside to Downtown San Diego) - and it would be even faster if it weren't for a tedious portion of the trip that requires the trains to head east through a winding canyon and slows things WAY down for about 10-15 minutes. Since we don't have canyons or cliffs within our own metro area, I would imagine that we could build some pretty direct commuter rail lines- especially if the existing train tracks in the region could be used... (And I know we already talked about the challenges we face with this...)

I completely agree though that building the Phoenix Metro out- to the far edges of the Phoenix Metro area is NOT the right answer. Light rail (the Metro) is more suited for more centralized, denser areas where there can be more frequent stops. To move people longer distances and on a schedule/ timeframe that makes sense to commuters trying to get to work on time- then we need to look to a commuter rail network that has far fewer stations- but as you called out- stations that are VERY well connected with other modes of transport- to get folks to where they need to go.

[Jjs5056]

What's more likely/less costly? Adding an express line or giving LRT priority at red lights?

Rode the train from Apache and Price to Roosevelt the other night and it was pretty painful... There's no need for a good number of the stops between Mill and downtown to happen at all times of the day.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

What's more likely/less costly? Adding an express line or giving LRT priority at red lights?

Rode the train from Apache and Price to Roosevelt the other night and it was pretty painful... There's no need for a good number of the stops between Mill and downtown to happen at all times of the day.

I like the idea of express trains, but until the traffic light issue is resolved, this won't be very effective. The trains will just be expressed straight into the next red light (possibly right next to a station,not opening the doors and frustrating the waiting passengers on the platform).

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by TempeSilverFox

Yes, I agree it is frustrating that the Phoenix Metro must stop at all red lights!?! I'm guessing the system was originally designed that way to save money- because I'm sure it would cost quite a bit to add controls at every intersection to give the Metro the right of way.

The Coaster in San Diego was probably not the best example I could have thrown out, especially given its overall ridership. I just used it as an example for the type of system (type of train cars etc.) that I want to see here. The Trolley in San Diego has multiple lines that run all over the central, southern and eastern part of the city and they were able to build the initial segment down to San Ysidro on existing right of way- so it was very cost effective and has been there for decades. The frequency of the stops though are still quite high compared with the Coaster - or any other city's commuter rail system - which does make the trip from Santee or San Ysidro to Downtown San Diego take a long time.

The Coaster's travel time is much shorter given how much distance it covers (from Oceanside to Downtown San Diego) - and it would be even faster if it weren't for a tedious portion of the trip that requires the trains to head east through a winding canyon and slows things WAY down for about 10-15 minutes. Since we don't have canyons or cliffs within our own metro area, I would imagine that we could build some pretty direct commuter rail lines- especially if the existing train tracks in the region could be used... (And I know we already talked about the challenges we face with this...)

I completely agree though that building the Phoenix Metro out- to the far edges of the Phoenix Metro area is NOT the right answer. Light rail (the Metro) is more suited for more centralized, denser areas where there can be more frequent stops. To move people longer distances and on a schedule/ timeframe that makes sense to commuters trying to get to work on time- then we need to look to a commuter rail network that has far fewer stations- but as you called out- stations that are VERY well connected with other modes of transport- to get folks to where they need to go.

All true about the Coaster. It does cover quite a distance with very limited stops. The problem is: not too many people from North County have jobs along the coaster's route. If they do, they then have to transfer to local rail or bus from a Coaster Station.

The Trolley is expanding 11 miles northward called the mid-coast extension, to UTC which is Similar to Phx's Biltmore-camelback corridor (roughly where the coaster makes that bend in the canyon). Once complete, I imagine this will be much more effective at attracting North County residents.

[Spitfiredude]

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/upload..._Streetcar_Project_Update_3.27.13opt.pdf

It is great to see the original line to Southern Avenue scrapped. That area is already developed into homes and many of those people likely work outside of ASU/downtown Tempe, so it made little sense to do that line besides for some students that reside in that area.

I hope the yellow line is selected as the best route. It will connect Mill Avenue and DT, with student residences such as the Barrett, Hassay, Sonora, Adelphi, The District, The Vue, Vista Del Sol, Hayden, etc. Also there are two hotels along Apache/Rural in this area. It will go by Gammage into downtown Tempe (Ash/Mill) and then connect the Mill, Tempe Beach Park, Hayden Ferry Lakeside, Sun Devil stadium and the future State Farm development. This is a great route that could eventually continue eastward through the ASU athletic/development district, South Bank, the Marketplace, Cubs stadium and possibly to Riverview.

To me, the green route makes less sense. You would connect the light rail and streetcar together when it is unnecessary. The people that live inbetween the .3 mile strip from Rural to Terrace could easily take a five minute walk to the light rail station or future streetcar station at Rural/Apache. The two connect on Mill Ave north of 5th street. The majority of on campus students won't be riding the light rail eastward anyway. They will either go to Mill Ave, the stadium, or ASU Downtown PHX. So I believe there is no point in wasting that connection point in the first phase of development. I could see students riding the street car from the dorms and residential apartments in the Apache district to the stadium for tailgating prior to football games. I think that is much more feasible and I think ASU is going to support the Yellow route.

What do you guys think?

[Jjs5056]

Yikes, both kind of suck.

I think Mill and Apache to Rio and McClintock would be most ideal. Apache is becoming one of the most walkable streets in Tempe. Residents or guests staying between Rural and Mill should easily be able to get to Mill and catch the streetcar, or walk to a light rail station and get to Mill/3rd where they can then walk to a streetcar stop, depending on where they need to go. Gammage makes the perfect ending/beginning; it's the last amenity/destination - everything east is residential/hotel.

Relocating that piece (from Mill to Rural on Apache) to extend the Rio Salado leg then gives access to South Bank, Stadium District and TMP instead of randomly terminating at HFL.

Either route essentially is serving the same areas that can be accessed by light rail currently with short walks. East of the proposed terminus on Rio is where you start needing an additional mode of transportation + you start passing the most developable land in the city.

Strange.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Spitfiredude

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/upload..._Streetcar_Project_Update_3.27.13opt.pdf

It is great to see the original line to Southern Avenue scrapped. That area is already developed into homes and many of those people likely work outside of ASU/downtown Tempe, so it made little sense to do that line besides for some students that reside in that area.

I hope the yellow line is selected as the best route. It will connect Mill Avenue and DT, with student residences such as the Barrett, Hassay, Sonora, Adelphi, The District, The Vue, Vista Del Sol, Hayden, etc. Also there are two hotels along Apache/Rural in this area. It will go by Gammage into downtown Tempe (Ash/Mill) and then connect the Mill, Tempe Beach Park, Hayden Ferry Lakeside, Sun Devil stadium and the future State Farm development. This is a great route that could eventually continue eastward through the ASU athletic/development district, South Bank, the Marketplace, Cubs stadium and possibly to Riverview.

To me, the green route makes less sense. You would connect the light rail and streetcar together when it is unnecessary. The people that live inbetween the .3 mile strip from Rural to Terrace could easily take a five minute walk to the light rail station or future streetcar station at Rural/Apache. The two connect on Mill Ave north of 5th street. The majority of on campus students won't be riding the light rail eastward anyway. They will either go to Mill Ave, the stadium, or ASU Downtown PHX. So I believe there is no point in wasting that connection point in the first phase of development. I could see students riding the street car from the dorms and residential apartments in the Apache district to the stadium for tailgating prior to football games. I think that is much more feasible and I think ASU is going to support the Yellow route.

What do you guys think?

I agree with you. The yellow route makes sense and could easily be extended into northwest Mesa as funding becomes available.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

What's more likely/less costly? Adding an express line or giving LRT priority at red lights?

Rode the train from Apache and Price to Roosevelt the other night and it was pretty painful... There's no need for a good number of the stops between Mill and downtown to happen at all times of the day.

LRT already has limited priority at intersections -- I think it might be to hold a green light in favor of the train a little longer, but not to change a red to green. I have no idea how much it would cost to upgrade that to a system that did more to favor trains, but I suspect it might cost less than express trains. Express trains would require construction of a second track in at least some locations so that the expresses would not get caught behind the locals. For that reason, very few urban rail transit systems have express trains. The NYC Subway is the big exception since it's double tracked in most locations.

[combusean]

Express trains could in theory work using the existing infrastructure (not sure about power tho), because there are switches in between the tracks at each station. Local trains could hold out at stations at *very* specific time points so an express train could go around it by switching back and forth.

However, when I talked about express service with somebody at Valley Metro a while ago they seemed to indicate the switches were for emergency service only. Serious lack of vision when they built this thing, but maybe it won't cost too much to remediate.